The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Nolanator · Post by **Nolanator** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:49 pm

What are you lot on about? Ross is a better THP than Hayes. I'm not saying that the Bull was particularly bad, it's just that Ross is better than Hayes was.

Post by **SASP** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:50 pm

ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Why not? If work around the pitch was so much more important than scrummaging why the hell dont we just play another flanker at TH then?

DOB · Post by **DOB** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Fester, Hickie made a try scoring debut in Cardiff in 97. He then scored in Paris and Twickenham in 98. We also had Niall Woods and Girv around the same time, and O'Shea, for all his flaws, was tearing up the Prem back when it was a decent league. And don't tell me you wouldn't take any of the 12s (Bell, Hendo, Maggs) from back then in a heartbeat for this team. If you were nervous about Woods' defence, you could just stick Bell or Maggs on the wing too.

Horgan was an awful wing when he first came through. It wasn't until D'Arcy moved to centre full time that Shaggy really learned to play there.

And Bishop was still playing for Ireland as recently as the Grand Slam game with England in 2003! So how you can say we were better in 2001 without him...

Post by **ZappaMan** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:56 pm

Jaysus.

DOB · Post by **DOB** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:03 pm

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:Just a point on the whole coaching thing, there is definitely something wrong, we should be getting more out these players, the inconsistency is what pisses me off!

This.

Really, it's a lot of the technical stuff that's the big problem. Numbers at rucks, body positions, support lines, defensive alignment etc. Les Kiss is in charge of all of that, and we all know Deccie knows fudge all about the nitty gritty of the game. The team needs a new, full time backs/skills coach, and the defensive coaching, especially after our last 2 games against Wales, needs a good hard look too.

DiscoHips D'Arcy · Post by **DiscoHips D'Arcy** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:07 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:
Nolanator wrote:We've currently got better players available at 3 and 9 than we ever did under Eddie.
What is Reddan but a slightly taller and more brainfart-prone version of Stringer in the good old days?
Eddie also had BOD at the peak of his powers.
And while I despised how Eddie used the backrow, he had a considerably more balanced backrow available to him than we do now.

Don't get me wrong. Kidney should be getting more out of the players and if hasn't turned things around by the end of the season and we only manage 1 win from the next three games (which is possible IMO), then he should go and let a fresh face take over. Coaches are generals and like Napoleon's question to his marshalls asking "if they were lucky", has Kidney lost that old lucky touch of his? Performance this weekend and 2 wins after that, I'd be inclined to let him have next year and see can we build on that.

That's pretty much fair enough fester. I would add winning this weekend to that but I accept that beating France is difficult at the best of times. The squad for NZ will be massively important.

CM11 · Post by **CM11** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:08 pm

I expect the lazy 'if we condensed all our teams into 3 provinces' argument from the English and French. It's bizarre that it's come from an Irishman. I don't even know where to start but for simplicity I'll say that I would far prefer to have the amount of players France do across two pro divisions with some top, top clubs leading the way rather than 3 and half provinces. The only caveat would be that the IRFU would have to be in control of the clubs as that's the main reason France are inconsistent.

As for the defence of Kidney, it's gotten ridiculous at this stage. He is not getting the best out of the squad and hasn't been for a long time. He nearly got there at the WC but then blinked at the last moment and picked the wrong halfbacks for the QF (not saying we would have won with the right halfbacks but we'd at least have given ourselves a better chance). He only gets the team playing in fits and starts (usually coinciding with picking the right halfbacks - has he got that condition that your man in Memento had that he forgets everything he's learned almost instantly) and results wise the team has regressed massively, especially at home. When he took over we'd lost 6 home games in 7 years, he's now 'led' us to 8 in 4 years.

earl the beaver · Post by **earl the beaver** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:32 pm

Just going to add that as Kidney is from Munster there is fudge all point in arguing with Grim, he makes me look balanced and objective and then tries to dress it up.

MunsterMan!!!!! · Post by **MunsterMan!!!!!** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:37 pm

ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Nolan might catch a few out, its Friday people are emotional, tired after the week but excited about the week end, perfect time for fishing!!!

binge90 · Post by **binge90** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:41 pm

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Nolan might catch a few out, its Friday people are emotional, tired after the week but excited about the week end, perfect time for fishing!!!

Primary job of a THP is to scrummage. Ergo, Ross is better.

Claiming something else would be as ludicrous as claiming a scrumhalf is better because he's a better defen...oh wait.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:41 pm

It's not a ridiculous defence Statto.
The previous coach (who due to the length of his tenture is the only one we can benchmark Kidney against) also struggled to get the team to perform when it mattered and a lot of dross was covered up by England and Scotland being shit and Wales being shit every year bar two.

Porterbelly1 · Post by **Porterbelly1** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:45 pm

Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight. If all the 2nd rows and props drop dead Kidney would probably draft in MOD, Cullen, Horan, Hayes and the likes anyway. They're badly needed v the Scarlets tonight and instead they're just carrying the water for the Irish team. Scandalous

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:45 pm

binge90 wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Nolan might catch a few out, its Friday people are emotional, tired after the week but excited about the week end, perfect time for fishing!!!
Primary job of a THP is to scrummage. Ergo, Ross is better.

Claiming something else would be as ludicrous as claiming a scrumhalf is better because he's a better defen...oh wait.

Simon Best a better player than Hayes then?
Now I think the boy was much maligned by a lot of people, especially Neil Francis who stubbornly refused to acknowledge the decent performances Best had but if you believe that Best was a better THP than Hayes purely because he was better in the scrum, I'll have some of what you're on.

And now that we're talking about Ross, anybody else worried by his apparent drop in fitness? He is after getting noticeably slower since last year's 6N.

binge90 · Post by **binge90** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:46 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:
binge90 wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Nolan might catch a few out, its Friday people are emotional, tired after the week but excited about the week end, perfect time for fishing!!!
Primary job of a THP is to scrummage. Ergo, Ross is better.

Claiming something else would be as ludicrous as claiming a scrumhalf is better because he's a better defen...oh wait.
Simon Best a better player than Hayes then?
Now I think the boy was much maligned by a lot of people, especially Neil Francis who stubbornly refused to acknowledge the decent performances Best had but if you believe that Best was a better THP than Hayes purely because he was better in the scrum, I'll have some of what you're on.

And now that we're talking about Ross, anybody else worried by his apparent drop in fitness? He is after getting noticeably slower since last year's 6N.

I got what you need. I'll hook you up.

earl the beaver · Post by **earl the beaver** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.

International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:49 pm

Thanks Binge. You're a gent.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:50 pm

earl the beaver wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.
International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.

Quite right. It should be MOD and Horan.

PornDog · Post by **PornDog** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:50 pm

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:Just a point on the whole coaching thing, there is definitely something wrong, we should be getting more out these players, the inconsistency is what pisses me off!

This. Although it could be argued that we are in fact quite consistently under performing, one or two blips aside.

DOB - while the Golden Generation term is a complete load of bollocks and you made your point well about Hickie, Horgan et all, but Strings and ROG, as much as they have been maligned later in their careers, were almost as instrumental in the turnaround of Irish fortunes as BOD. We actually had passable half backs.

Re Hayes and Ross. Hayes is a legend for so many reasons, but if you offered me a 31 year old Bull or a 31 year old Ross, I'd be picking Ross.

Porterbelly1 · Post by **Porterbelly1** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:00 pm

earl the beaver wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.
International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.

They'll be over there scratching themselves when they're the men in our pack, we've fudge all chance of picking up a win over there now.

International my balls, they'll be sat in the stand. I'd imagine Elwood is raging. They should bring some other suckers like MOD and Horan who's presence won't be missed in their own team

Cossax · Post by **Cossax** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:25 pm

Porterbelly1 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.
International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.
They'll be over there scratching themselves when they're the men in our pack, we've fudge all chance of picking up a win over there now.

International my balls, they'll be sat in the stand. I'd imagine Elwood is raging. They should bring some other suckers like MOD and Horan who's presence won't be missed in their own team

That's no way to talk about 199 Munster capped MOD.

Province over country, shameful from a Westie.

massivepr1ck · Post by **massivepr1ck** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:40 pm

Maybe if Connacht don't want to contribute to the IRFU then we can take back the money thats the difference between them filling their "developmental" team with utterly shit players and losing every game they play and not existing at all.

danthefan · Post by **danthefan** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:42 pm

I agree with the Weshtie. It's f**king stupid blocking players from playing for their province so they can sit there scratching themselves.

CM11 · Post by **CM11** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:45 pm

Porterbelly1 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.
International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.
They'll be over there scratching themselves when they're the men in our pack, we've fudge all chance of picking up a win over there now.

International my balls, they'll be sat in the stand. I'd imagine Elwood is raging. They should bring some other suckers like MOD and Horan who's presence won't be missed in their own team

I presume they're 23rd and 24th men. Which is normal.

Luckycharmer · Post by **Luckycharmer** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:46 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:
binge90 wrote:
MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:
ZappaMan wrote:Ross better than Hayes? Ah, come on, lads, you're jumping the shark now. He's not even in the same ballpark as Bull.

Nolan might catch a few out, its Friday people are emotional, tired after the week but excited about the week end, perfect time for fishing!!!
Primary job of a THP is to scrummage. Ergo, Ross is better.

Claiming something else would be as ludicrous as claiming a scrumhalf is better because he's a better defen...oh wait.
Simon Best a better player than Hayes then?
Now I think the boy was much maligned by a lot of people, especially Neil Francis who stubbornly refused to acknowledge the decent performances Best had but if you believe that Best was a better THP than Hayes purely because he was better in the scrum, I'll have some of what you're on.

And now that we're talking about Ross, anybody else worried by his apparent drop in fitness? He is after getting noticeably slower since last year's 6N.

NO he has never been quick plus he is able to last 80mins these days which he rarely did before. I would have Ross anytime before Hayes it is great to see an Irish scrum actually win the odd Scrum Peno rather then give away one.
As for your bollix regarding Stringer V Reddan- Reddan can make a break thus keeping flankers honest- Stringer great passer but defenders just drifted out to the flyhalf due to lack of break.

DeDoc · Post by **DeDoc** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:50 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:It's not a ridiculous defence Statto.
The previous coach (who due to the length of his tenture is the only one we can benchmark Kidney against) also struggled to get the team to perform when it mattered and a lot of dross was covered up by England and Scotland being shit and Wales being shit every year bar two.

Coach Played Won Drew Lost Win%
DK 39 23 1 15 60.25
EOS 83 53 0 30 63.85
Gatland 33 15 1 17 46.96

It is interesting to consider Kidneys record since the Grand Slam and to otherwise drill into the record a little

Kidney has been in charge for 31 games since the GS, during which time he's had 16 wins, 1 draw and 14 losses. The games began with a summer tour while a Lions tour was on, so excluding those two games (Canada and the USA) there were 14 wins, 1 draw and 14 losses from 29 games
O'Sullivans last 31 games, he had a record of 18 wins and 13 losses.
The periods are pretty comparable also - they start with the autumn after a Lions tour, and include a World cup and (part of) the subsequent 6N
If you bring it back to the same number of games (29) over the same period then O'Sullivans record is 17 wins and 12 losses.
In O'Sullivans case it includes one period where he nearly lost his job (Autumn 2005) and one where he actually did (2008 6N)

Kidneys win record in that period is 36% vs 3N (2.5 from 7 games), 44% vs 6N + Argentina (8 from 18) and 100% vs all others (4 games)
O'Sullivans is 29% (2 from 7), 56% (10 from 18) and 100% (4 games)

Their overall records are:
Kidney 31% (2 from 8, 5 at home and 1 on neutral territory), 58% (14 from 24) and 100% (7 from 7)
EOS 27% (4 from 15, 6 at home), 67% (30 from 45, including 2 tests in Argentina) and 100% (16 from 16)

It is also worth noting that EOS faced French and Welsh sides that won 2 grand slams each, and an English side that won a Grand Slam and a World cup, in the 7 years he was coach, while Kidney has faced 1 slam winner (maybe 2 if someone does it this year also) in his 4.

vs Team...........Kidney.............O'Sullivan
France.............1/6...................1/9
England............3/4...................4/7
Wales..............2/5...................6/8
Scotland...........2/4...................8/9
Italy................5/5...................9/9

Gatlands record was as follows:

0/8 (average loss of 19.3 points) versus 3N, 11/23 (average win of 5.7 points) vs 6N (and Argentina), and 6.5/7 (average win of 38 points) vs Others

Post Lens (at which stage EOS was assistant coach), the record was:
0/2 (average loss of 10.5 points) versus 3N, 9/13 (average win of 13.2 points) vs 6N (and Argentina), and 2.5/3 (average win of 34.3 points) vs Others

In terms of points differences, the records for Kidney and EOS were:

Kidney: -8, 4, 28.3
EOS: -9.7, 5.5, 31

Bear in mind too how many of EOS games vs 3N were away, versus Kidney

Porterbelly1 · Post by **Porterbelly1** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:56 pm

Cossax wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
Porterbelly1 wrote:Bringing Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson to France is a f**king disgrace when they're badly needed in the Connacht pack tonight.
International comes first.

But yes it is a disgrace they aren't the best options available.
They'll be over there scratching themselves when they're the men in our pack, we've fudge all chance of picking up a win over there now.

International my balls, they'll be sat in the stand. I'd imagine Elwood is raging. They should bring some other suckers like MOD and Horan who's presence won't be missed in their own team
That's no way to talk about 199 Munster capped MOD.

Province over country, shameful from a Westie.

Until they give a toss about us and while that gobshite Kidney is still in charge and making shitty selections then that will always be the case

danthefan · Post by **danthefan** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:57 pm

Porterbelly1 wrote: Until they give a toss about us that will always be the case

You're being massively subsidised ffs

danthefan · Post by **danthefan** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:59 pm

Apparently BOD's old man was on the radio earlier today saying he'd be back in 3 or 4 weeks. f**king awesome.

Tecumseh · Post by **Tecumseh** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:51 pm

danthefan wrote:Apparently BOD's old man was on the radio earlier today saying he'd be back in 3 or 4 weeks. f**king awesome.

Sure I said that weeks ago...

Mind you, I did hear it indirectly from FOD

binge90 · Post by **binge90** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:57 pm

Tecumseh wrote:
danthefan wrote:Apparently BOD's old man was on the radio earlier today saying he'd be back in 3 or 4 weeks. f**king awesome.
Sure I said that weeks ago...

Mind you, I did hear it indirectly from FOD

I posted this a few days back, but look at him go!

The Mute · Post by **The Mute** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:22 pm

In other news, Sean O'Brien : Second Coming?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/ma ... tions-2012

Post by **SASP** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:52 am

The combined tackle count of DOC and Ryan in the France game is one less than POC.

Fairly obvious DOC is not up to this level anymore. Are there still some here thinking his "unseen" work is whats keeping him in the team.

No harm to the big guy but your times up. Retire from international rugby and hand back that central contract.

earl the beaver · Post by **earl the beaver** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:57 am

Need a change in the centres desperately for next week.

Willie Falloon · Post by **Willie Falloon** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 am

Ian Whitten may be going to Exeter for twice the wage he is getting at Ulster. Not a major problem for Ulster with Wallace, Marshall and Farrell there. Great news for Ian if he can get a good wage in England.

Willie Falloon · Post by **Willie Falloon** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:59 am

Ian Whitten may be going to Exeter for twice the wage he is getting at Ulster. Not a major problem for Ulster with Wallace, Marshall and Farrell there. Great news for Ian if he can get a good wage in England.

earl the beaver · Post by **earl the beaver** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:59 am

Willie Falloon wrote:Ian Whitten may be going to Exeter for twice the wage he is getting at Ulster. Not a major problem for Ulster with Wallace, Marshall and Farrell there. Great news for Ian if he can get a good wage in England.

I await sky to call for his inclusion in the Ireland squad when he tears up the AP a la Downey.

Munster should have signed him tbf.

Post by **SASP** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:05 am

earl the beaver wrote:
Willie Falloon wrote:Ian Whitten may be going to Exeter for twice the wage he is getting at Ulster. Not a major problem for Ulster with Wallace, Marshall and Farrell there. Great news for Ian if he can get a good wage in England.
I await sky to call for his inclusion in the Ireland squad when he tears up the AP a la Downey.

Munster should have signed him tbf.

Could do. It'll probably be good for him

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:07 am

earl the beaver wrote:Need a change in the centres desperately for next week.

Sorry Earl. Paddy won't be getting the call.

rialtoblue · Post by **rialtoblue** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:59 am

I would have thought the need for a change at hooker to be more pressing. While a fan of his I thought Best had a poor match both in the lineout and loose. With Cronins recent improvement with throwing I think he is worth a look at 2. Trimble was unusually quiet but deserves to hang onto the jersey. Would like to see McFadden given a run at 12 for the Scots.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:42 pm

rialtoblue wrote:I would have thought the need for a change at hooker to be more pressing. While a fan of his I thought Best had a poor match both in the lineout and loose. With Cronins recent improvement with throwing I think he is worth a look at 2. Trimble was unusually quiet but deserves to hang onto the jersey. Would like to see McFadden given a run at 12 for the Scots.

Much as I enjoy fishing for Earl, Best has been excellent for much of the past year and if we dropped every player after one poor game, we'd be changing more than Claudio Ranieri.