The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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iarmhiman
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:41 pm Should we have a quotas system in Ireland where there has to be a set number of players from each province in the team?

We'd never win as much and would likely 4th or below 6 Nations, but at least then we could say there is no provincial favourtism?
It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?
This is a whiteboard session. We're looking for ways to rid Irish rugby of provincial favouritism.

It's a bad idea I know but are there other ways we could achieve it?
More provincial favouritism I say. Lovely, lovely spite.
Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
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earl the beaver
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

Leinsterman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:02 pm Ryan to be captain on Saturday yet he mentions the experience of POM. I'd expect POM to start based on that comment, particularly with Sexton out.
Also mentions Henderson and Keet.
SFBB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

PornDog wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:59 pm Are you including what players get paid for Ireland in your €11m-€13m figure, because I don't see how you can get to that without it? Even with a larger topline figure, I can't see Leinster's player budget approaching €10M.

With regard to Leinster raising money separately, I was under the impression that the IRFU accounts included the provincial accounts in them. So in that case the only "external" revenues would be the likes of the contributions from your DOBs, JPs and McIlroys - likely to be well less than €1M per year in total across the board (probably less than €500k pa).

Like I said above I agree with your central point of a level financial playing field, just taking issue with what I feel is an over egged comparison.
Yes, I am including what players get paid for playing for Ireland and also what the 6 Sarries players get for playing for England. If those 6 played every game they would get 1.8m (25k x 6 x 12) between them from the RFU, so I added that to the 8.5m Sarries can pay under the cap. The two squads would have a budget of in the region of 10-11gbp all things considered. Really hard to get exact figures, but its roughly even. The cheating they did was added income to those players over long term investments, so hard to figure into a single salary cap year. They overpaid Itoje 800k for his image rights, but those rights were for life, not in a single season. Same with the joint investments with the other guys. They weren't going to get the investment yearly. They were one off payments to bump their income and commit them to the club. Ultimately they would have been relatively close to the actual salary cap if you spread those investments across their playing careers, but the RFU decided they constituted income in a single season which resulted in the grossly inflated figures stated.

The main point really is it would be basically impossible to trim that to the level that Newport or Edinburgh could compete with it, and still retain anything close to the squads assembled.
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Jim Lahey
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jim Lahey »

iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:41 pm Should we have a quotas system in Ireland where there has to be a set number of players from each province in the team?

We'd never win as much and would likely 4th or below 6 Nations, but at least then we could say there is no provincial favourtism?
It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?
This is a whiteboard session. We're looking for ways to rid Irish rugby of provincial favouritism.

It's a bad idea I know but are there other ways we could achieve it?
More provincial favouritism I say. Lovely, lovely spite.
Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
Too many prods.
iarmhiman
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by iarmhiman »

Jim Lahey wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:12 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm

It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?
This is a whiteboard session. We're looking for ways to rid Irish rugby of provincial favouritism.

It's a bad idea I know but are there other ways we could achieve it?
More provincial favouritism I say. Lovely, lovely spite.
Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
Too many prods.
No Munster players to screw everything up, I'm happy
Trostan
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Trostan »

iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:41 pm Should we have a quotas system in Ireland where there has to be a set number of players from each province in the team?

We'd never win as much and would likely 4th or below 6 Nations, but at least then we could say there is no provincial favourtism?
It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?
This is a whiteboard session. We're looking for ways to rid Irish rugby of provincial favouritism.

It's a bad idea I know but are there other ways we could achieve it?
More provincial favouritism I say. Lovely, lovely spite.
Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
Henshaw is out injured.
Trostan
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Trostan »

Trostan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:15 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:06 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:56 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm

It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?
This is a whiteboard session. We're looking for ways to rid Irish rugby of provincial favouritism.

It's a bad idea I know but are there other ways we could achieve it?
More provincial favouritism I say. Lovely, lovely spite.
Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
Henshaw is out injured and Kellegher is a complete unknown
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feckwanker
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by feckwanker »

earl the beaver wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm
camroc1 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:00 pm
danthefan wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:53 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:41 pm Should we have a quotas system in Ireland where there has to be a set number of players from each province in the team?

We'd never win as much and would likely 4th or below 6 Nations, but at least then we could say there is no provincial favourtism?
It would make it 10 times worse, are you nuts? Imagine [insert your favourite player] getting left out for a quota player?

In the Amateur days, when the team was picked by committee, the 'unofficial' quota, iirc, was 5 each from Ulster and Leinster and 2 from Munster.
It led to a lot of horse trading, especially between the Leinster and Ulster reps, along the line of "if you give me x, you can have y"; and a lot of players earning "sympathy" caps.

It would be an appallingly regressive move.
Nonsense.
Agreed. Sounds like utter bollocks tbh.
de_Selby
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by de_Selby »

iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
https://www.the42.ie/james-ryan-ireland ... 6-Nov2020/
The great thing is i won’t be on my own. I’ll have Peter O’Mahony there Hendy (Iain Henderson), Keith Earls
So unless I'm reading too much into that, POM to play along with Earls and Henderson.

Presumably the backrow is POM, Connors, Stander. Harsh enough on Keenan too
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PornDog
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by PornDog »

Lets agree that their budget is relative to that of Wasps, or Exeter - and leave Sarries out of it.
SFBB wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 pm The main point really is it would be basically impossible to trim that to the level that Newport or Edinburgh could compete with it, and still retain anything close to the squads assembled.
I don't disagree. While I do think the top players in particular are seriously overpaid and that a re-balancing was due anyway even before COVID hit, we can't realistically reduce player budgets by too much. Large squads are a simple necessity for a season the length that it is, so the top 2 or even 3 tiers of players salaries need to be trimmed to varying degrees, but in reality its revenues that need raising. And alas, that means we have to be CVCs bitch.
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earl the beaver
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

de_Selby wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:28 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
https://www.the42.ie/james-ryan-ireland ... 6-Nov2020/
The great thing is i won’t be on my own. I’ll have Peter O’Mahony there Hendy (Iain Henderson), Keith Earls
So unless I'm reading too much into that, POM to play along with Earls and Henderson.

Presumably the backrow is POM, Connors, Stander. Harsh enough on Keenan too
Stockdale has a calf strain and isn't expected to train until tomorrow at the earliest suggesting he's out, Keet would be replacing Conway
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camroc1
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

PornDog wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:59 pm
SFBB wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:31 pm
PornDog wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:13 pm
SFBB wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:10 pm
PornDog wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:48 pm

Nah not having that. The Vunipolas, Itoje, Farrell and Daly are most likely paid a good chunk more by Saracens alone than the likes of Sexton and Furlong are earning from their Ireland contracts. I'd be surprised if any of the other pay tiers had a larger Leinster average salary than their Sarries equivalent as well.

Maybe if Leinster's squad is significantly bigger than Sarries one we might start getting somewhere, but most of that extra depth is coming in at the bottom of the pay scale - how much are any of the O'Briens really earning for instance?

That's not to say I don't agree with your point that any conjoined competition would have to have a level financial playing field - of course it would. I don't think it would be as big an obstacle as you're making out though. Obviously the central contract system would have to be abandoned (which has its detractors anyway) and an International pay structure somewhat similar to England's would have to be brought in, but that's not a big thing really so long as there is a lead time to organise it all.
To pay those guys what they are worth they had to actively breech their 7m salary cap plus two uncounted marquee players. For argument sake 8.5m as Farrell appears to be on 750k by all accounts. If their 6 England players play 12 games a year at 25k per game, thats another 1.8m. 10.3m total

IRFU spends about 35m pounds a year on pro players, which Leinster get more than 1/4 because of their density of central contracts. I found an estimate for the cost of the Leinster squad at between 11-13m which is pretty much bang on what Saracens should have paying without their shenanigans.
€35M (that's Euro), to run 5 teams which also includes all coaching staff salaries for those 5 teams.

Even if you suppose the coaches work for free, that's an average of €7M per team. Okay lets add 30% for Leinster being awesome and deserving it, and another €500k from donors - its still well under €10M (realistically it will be closer to €8M than it will be to €9M).

Ignoring Sarries cheating, that £7M cap gets 2 high end exceptions (probably ~£1.5M in total) plus their England and Academy credits and they (and most other top Prem teams) would be over £9M legally.

And obviously Sarries are a poor comparison to make because they did cheat like fudge!
No, it's 40m euro. 35m sterling. Leinster get a lot of money from the IRFU but also raise funds themselves, bringing their player budget to the 11-13m euro mark as I've suggested above. It's roughly in line with top English club budgets, within a margin of error.
I wont argue the topline figure with you - I can't be arsed digging out the report and its possible I'm recalling one from a few years ago.

I also don't take issue with you saying that Leinster's budget is roughly in line with top English club budgets - I took issue with you saying it was comparable to Sarries - which is a completely different comparison. For what its worth, I reckon it would in reality be about 10% lower, but as you say that's getting into margin of error territory - there's a lot of guesswork that goes on with these figures.

Are you including what players get paid for Ireland in your €11m-€13m figure, because I don't see how you can get to that without it? Even with a larger topline figure, I can't see Leinster's player budget approaching €10M.

With regard to Leinster raising money separately, I was under the impression that the IRFU accounts included the provincial accounts in them. So in that case the only "external" revenues would be the likes of the contributions from your DOBs, JPs and McIlroys - likely to be well less than €1M per year in total across the board (probably less than €500k pa).

Like I said above I agree with your central point of a level financial playing field, just taking issue with what I feel is an over egged comparison.
The 18/19 IRFU accounts include a figure of € 45.6m under professional games cost. However they are very opaque about what is included in that, and it would be prudent to include all costs associated with professional mens rugby on the island.

Taking Leinster :

They have 47 in their squad ranging from first year professionals to old heads like Toner etc. Of that 47, four (Bent, Fardy, G-P and Lowe) are from overseas, and two (Cronin, Henshaw) from other provinces. So 41 of the squad are home developed.

They have an Academy squad of 18.

They have 5 coaches (Cullen, Lancaster, Contepomi, Farrell and McBryde).

They have 29 other backroom staff (that does not include any admin staff), ranging from kit man to team doctor, and everything in between.

That's a total of 101 mouths to feed from Academy level right up to Sexton/Furlong level.

And that's just salary costs, and doesn't include any rental(offices/pitch) costs; or indeed any travel/hotel costs, which in 18/19 included to SA.

Doing some basic arithmetic:

€ 45.6m /4 = € 11.4m/province;

€ 11.4m/101 = (approx) € 113 k av. salary per employee

That suggests that most of the playing, academy, and backroom staff are earning considerably less than the figures you see bandied about.
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PornDog
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by PornDog »

Pretty sure Academy costs were listed separately to professional game costs.

While senior coaching staff are definitely part of that figure, and probably the likes of Easterbunny and the video analysts, I could imagine physios and nutritionists, marketing and office staff etc being separate.
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camroc1
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

PornDog wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:42 pm Pretty sure Academy costs were listed separately to professional game costs, and I didn't include marketing or admin types.

While senior coaching staff are definitely part of that figure, and probably the likes of Easterbunny and the video analysts, I could imagine physios and nutritionists, marketing and office staff etc being separate.
No. Academy are professional costs.

"Elite development costs", the heading you refer to, includes everything under academy : sub - academy, community coaches, under age game, Irish womens team, Sevens team etc.etc.

But as I say what's included under each heading is opaque.
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shabadoo
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by shabadoo »

de_Selby wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:28 pm
iarmhiman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:09 pm Agree. Okay here is my team for Saturday

15 Stockdale
14 Keenan
13 Henshaw
12 Bundee
11 Lowe
10 Ross
9 JGP
1 Healy
2 Kellegher
3 Porter
4 Ryan
5 Roux
6 VDF
7 Conners
8 Doris
https://www.the42.ie/james-ryan-ireland ... 6-Nov2020/
The great thing is i won’t be on my own. I’ll have Peter O’Mahony there Hendy (Iain Henderson), Keith Earls
So unless I'm reading too much into that, POM to play along with Earls and Henderson.

Presumably the backrow is POM, Connors, Stander. Harsh enough on Keenan too
I read it as just referring to the senior leadership group. No guarantee they are starting/involved
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Floppykid
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Floppykid »

Such a one paced, old team potentially playing.
Jumper
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jumper »

Ryan will be the youngest Irish captain since POM 7 years ago.
DeDoc
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

The 2018/19 RFU accounts show they spent £65.6M on the pro game broken down by £34.2M to the clubs, £12.5M on 'base' (people, operations etc) and £18.9M on player costs, including pathway development. Page 19 of this doc https://www.englandrugby.com/dxdam/29/2 ... s-2019.pdf

The 'equivalent' figures for the IRFU from 18/19 are: €45.6M on professional game costs and €11.2M on Elite Player development. You can see them on page 62 here https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/i ... t_1819.pdf

It is almost impossible to make a direct comparison.

I don't know how the IRFU account for the provinces, but if you look for example at the income side, it talks about a total income from 'representative matches' of 84.3M broken down as internationals 39.7, commercial (11.2), Amortised (presume debentures, boxes etc? 20M) and Provincial (13.4M)

Now if we go to wikipedia and the attendances(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%8 ... es_by_club) for that season we have 567K for the Irish teams, just in the Pro14. Even at a very conservative €20 per head that is €11M in income. You can add (at least) another €3M or so for the equivalent HEC matches. There is sponsorship, merchandising, entertainment etc on top of that. So I suspect the IRFU accounts are only showing the TV income for the provinces. In that light, I'd very much doubt if the full costs of running the provinces is appearing on the IRFU accounts. I'm not an accountant, so I'm not sure how the legal/professional practice of these things work, maybe someone better qualified than me can shed some light?

On the more general point, I very much doubt that even the elite Irish players (Furlong etc) are getting substantially more (if any more) than their counterparts in the UK (Itoje etc) in terms of their core salaries (club + International) - even disregarding any shenanigans by Saracens
DeDoc
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

SFBB wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 pm Yes, I am including what players get paid for playing for Ireland and also what the 6 Sarries players get for playing for England. If those 6 played every game they would get 1.8m (25k x 6 x 12) between them from the RFU, so I added that to the 8.5m Sarries can pay under the cap. The two squads would have a budget of in the region of 10-11gbp all things considered. Really hard to get exact figures, but its roughly even. The cheating they did was added income to those players over long term investments, so hard to figure into a single salary cap year. They overpaid Itoje 800k for his image rights, but those rights were for life, not in a single season. Same with the joint investments with the other guys. They weren't going to get the investment yearly. They were one off payments to bump their income and commit them to the club. Ultimately they would have been relatively close to the actual salary cap if you spread those investments across their playing careers, but the RFU decided they constituted income in a single season which resulted in the grossly inflated figures stated.

The main point really is it would be basically impossible to trim that to the level that Newport or Edinburgh could compete with it, and still retain anything close to the squads assembled.
€11M seems high. I seem to recall a figure of €6-7M Playig Budget floating around a couple of years back - based on radio/podcast interview with Mick Dawson, and another reference point being an equivalent interview with someone from Connacht who mentioned a figure (for Connacht) of €3M and noted it was about half what Leinster would have. That seems a bit more credible to me

Each of the constituent countries gets most of their money from international games, and a large chunk of that from TV. Wales are spreading that over the same number of teams we do. Scotland over half the number. The TV money for club competitions (Welsh loons notwithstanding) probably bring similar amounts to each team. The biggest differences are attendances and merchandising in my opinion. All the Irish provinces have grafted hard there, and lifted the standards in each others game with healthy internal competition. If you're old enough to remember early stage pro rugby (e.g. going to watch HEC games with 3K people in Donnybrook) then you'll realise how far we've come. I don't think Welsh or Scottish sides have done anything like the same hard work off the pitch.

I'm not even sure Salary Caps are a good way to 'protect' the teams - England have had them a while, with most teams (bar Sarries) appearing to adhere to them since the previous scandal a few years back - but most of them are still operating at a significant loss. Might be better to have player salaries capped at a percentage of revenue
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CM11
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

Italy Fiji canceled. Clearly the Fijians needed Cardinal Holohan as their covid advisor. 29 cases in the squad!
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Mr. Very Popular
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

CM11 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:01 pm Italy Fiji canceled. Clearly the Fijians needed Cardinal Holohan as their covid advisor. 29 cases in the squad!
28-0 for Italy so I presume, also, that probably puts the game on the 'finals' weekend in jeopardy, harsh on Georgia, or Wales :proud:
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shabadoo
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by shabadoo »

CM11 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:01 pm Italy Fiji canceled. Clearly the Fijians needed Cardinal Holohan as their covid advisor. 29 cases in the squad!
fudge, hope none of them get a serious case. Could be a career ender.
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camroc1
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

Can we send the Cardinal over to them on a VSO ?
cfm93
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by cfm93 »

G&T's team (was right last week)
Ireland (possible) v England: Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray; Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris. Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls
Murray needs a big game with the faith shown in him. Hopefully he can do like POM last week.
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Duff Paddy
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

cfm93 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:43 pm G&T's team (was right last week)
Ireland (possible) v England: Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray; Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris. Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls
Murray needs a big game with the faith shown in him. Hopefully he can do like POM last week.
It’s not the worst team we’ve ever sent to Twickers. Hope they can keep it respectable
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camroc1
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

Duff Paddy wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:11 am
cfm93 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:43 pm G&T's team (was right last week)
Ireland (possible) v England: Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray; Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris. Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls
Murray needs a big game with the faith shown in him. Hopefully he can do like POM last week.
It’s not the worst team we’ve ever sent to Twickers. Hope they can keep it respectable
Murray doing his 4th backrow impression will only work if we keep it Munster 2008 tight.
SFBB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

DeDoc wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:53 pm
SFBB wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 pm Yes, I am including what players get paid for playing for Ireland and also what the 6 Sarries players get for playing for England. If those 6 played every game they would get 1.8m (25k x 6 x 12) between them from the RFU, so I added that to the 8.5m Sarries can pay under the cap. The two squads would have a budget of in the region of 10-11gbp all things considered. Really hard to get exact figures, but its roughly even. The cheating they did was added income to those players over long term investments, so hard to figure into a single salary cap year. They overpaid Itoje 800k for his image rights, but those rights were for life, not in a single season. Same with the joint investments with the other guys. They weren't going to get the investment yearly. They were one off payments to bump their income and commit them to the club. Ultimately they would have been relatively close to the actual salary cap if you spread those investments across their playing careers, but the RFU decided they constituted income in a single season which resulted in the grossly inflated figures stated.

The main point really is it would be basically impossible to trim that to the level that Newport or Edinburgh could compete with it, and still retain anything close to the squads assembled.
€11M seems high. I seem to recall a figure of €6-7M Playig Budget floating around a couple of years back - based on radio/podcast interview with Mick Dawson, and another reference point being an equivalent interview with someone from Connacht who mentioned a figure (for Connacht) of €3M and noted it was about half what Leinster would have. That seems a bit more credible to me

Each of the constituent countries gets most of their money from international games, and a large chunk of that from TV. Wales are spreading that over the same number of teams we do. Scotland over half the number. The TV money for club competitions (Welsh loons notwithstanding) probably bring similar amounts to each team. The biggest differences are attendances and merchandising in my opinion. All the Irish provinces have grafted hard there, and lifted the standards in each others game with healthy internal competition. If you're old enough to remember early stage pro rugby (e.g. going to watch HEC games with 3K people in Donnybrook) then you'll realise how far we've come. I don't think Welsh or Scottish sides have done anything like the same hard work off the pitch.

I'm not even sure Salary Caps are a good way to 'protect' the teams - England have had them a while, with most teams (bar Sarries) appearing to adhere to them since the previous scandal a few years back - but most of them are still operating at a significant loss. Might be better to have player salaries capped at a percentage of revenue
I agree with the overall thrust of your arguments, with the added bit that Leinster have a budget of €6-7m handed from the IRFU. A lot of their funding comes from themselves because they are an extremely successful business on and off the pitch.
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feckwanker
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by feckwanker »

Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
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camroc1
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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feckwanker wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
Nah, Murrays service will do that.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by nardol »

camroc1 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:20 am
feckwanker wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
Nah, Murrays service will do that.
Break it is
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by rfurlong »

feckwanker wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
he wont be steering any ship if the english pack torpedo us ..... we could have The Avengers playing at 10 and it wouldn't matter a fvck if we get smashed up front again
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Zico
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Zico »

We've had enough chances to analyse failure now to come up with a solution.

The selection looks like doing the same thing again expecting a different result but we've imported an English crew, at some expense, to take down an English team.

It's time to see some return on investment, Makey-uppey Cup or not.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Gerrys team:

Ireland (possible) v England: Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray; Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris. Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by danthefan »

feckwanker wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
Ah he's never going to be more than a stopgap at international level really. Not rounded enough imo.
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shabadoo
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by shabadoo »

cfm93 wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:43 pm G&T's team (was right last week)
Ireland (possible) v England: Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray; Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris. Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls
Murray needs a big game with the faith shown in him. Hopefully he can do like POM last week.
Not bad I guess. Nothing Farrell can do about our replacement front row not really being up to it. Although Heffernan has been decent enough I guess. Just don't trust Bealham/Byrne to not get reamed.

The rest is fine. Looking forward to seeing how the back row goes. Hopefully Hendo has one of his stormers.

I think we will give a good account of ourselves. Will be tight for 60, hopefully we can grab a sneaky win. Would be great for the team. Unlikely though, given our 9/10 pairing.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mullet 2 »

I'd be happy with that JGP is the form player but three kiwis in our backline would be downright fúcking embarrassing
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HighKingLeinster
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by HighKingLeinster »

Can see why Murray is given the nod with Byrne at 10. Conway should have been binned.

No POM in starting 15 :thumbup:
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earl the beaver
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

camroc1 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:20 am
feckwanker wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:12 am Ross Byrne steering the ship away in Twickenham. This will make or break him.
Nah, Murrays service will do that.
Murray has been relatively good so far, would you ever stop.
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shabadoo
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by shabadoo »

Was interested to hear Leavy say his body is physically in much better shape than it was pre injury.

Really hope that is the case.

He is a really great player on top form but I don't recall him ever carrying like he did against Edinburgh. Could be wrong but was he ever the first receiver off kick offs like he was last game? Don't recall him being as good a carrier as he appeared to be. Would be amazing if he added that to his game.

Very impressive dude given what he is gone through. If he stays fit he'll be back in the Ireland team for the 6N.
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CM11
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

Leavy was always a good carrier, didn't see the game just highlights so can't compare fully but the carries in the highlights would have been typical enough. It's possible he's built on that ability if it's standing out for you but there's a reason he was jumping across the backrow pre injury too.
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