The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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hermie
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

camroc1 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:23 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:
The half time scoreboard in that match, Ireland 22 New Zealand 7 is still the screensaver on my phone... :lol:

Regarding the match, we did have chances to score that we didn't take, and could have won the match. Whether or not we would have deserved to is a different question. They got away with murder at the breakdown, and considering the TMOs intervention on Roux's dismissal of one of their players wandering around our side of the ruck, his marked reluctance to do so when Healy got a shoulder to the head when we were camped on their line in the second half is puzzling. That particular play ended with a penalty to England for Ireland not releasing despite the English player having knees on the ground, and hands all over the ball.
Billy V's 'turnover' after Earls' break is the one that really grates for me.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Winnie »

rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
What everyone forgets is that Sexton had a chance to put us two scores clear but spent about an hour thinking about the kick that he could have knocked over with his cap that he completely shit the bed
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by danny_fitz »

rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
I had just met my future sister in law for the first time and was watching the game around her house with her fella and I think all she remembers of me that day was screaming 'YOU F*CKING C*NTS" at the top of my voice at the telly.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Boxcar Ira »

Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
Ah yeah England were very comfortable. I think they had another gear or two if they wanted but they were happy to close it out and play tight. They were well on top in the set piece and physical battles.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:44 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:25 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:19 am The mad stat for me is that in 7 games we've only attempted 5 penalties.
Thats one of the soft positives. They've clearly tried to create more, although the plan on how they create is missing. I'd have been telling my team to keep going for drop goals whenever you got within 40m of Englands goals, let alone be waiting for penalties. Scoreboard pressure is needed against them.
Was talking about Ulster tbf.
My B. Noticed we've turned down plenty of kickable penalties recently, and didn't bother doing the cross check.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
I had a my uncle say the same.

The big issue for me is the lineout fluffing our two chances to build some pressure.
There's that (where one of those attacking lineouts leads to 7 points for England) but there's also how comfortable England were in defence.

We could have had all the possession in the world but until Burns did that kick over the top we never really broke the line.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

Apart from the times we did.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

We had no alternative to creating scores other than hoping England eventually missed tackles. We got decent field position a couple of times, but they were sitting ducks to the English defence. England clearly had a crossfield plan for certain situations, which really isn't too hard to implement. Usually results in regaining possession inside their half regardless.

A couple of dropgoals might have changed Englands perspective if the penalties and linebreaks weren't forthcoming.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 am Apart from the times we did.
We had a couple of offloads leading to Earls' break and we had POM's nudge down the line. After both we got turned over/penalised after going back to static runners off 10 behind the gainline. When did we build pressure and genuinely make a break that led to a clear cut opportunity?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by rfurlong »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:41 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
I had a my uncle say the same.

The big issue for me is the lineout fluffing our two chances to build some pressure.
There's that (where one of those attacking lineouts leads to 7 points for England) but there's also how comfortable England were in defence.

We could have had all the possession in the world but until Burns did that kick over the top we never really broke the line.
I've no idea what Catt and Easterby are doing tbh ...... but I suspect the real blame lays with Farrell who seems to think Ireland are going to win rugby league style collision games against stronger packs

Watching Harry Byrne yesterday evening, he's playing a different game than the rest of our out halves .... he didn't even play that well last night but he still bamboozled the cardiff defence on numerous occasions with grubbers, out the back passes, skip passes, standing flat and punching holes, bringing frawley into the game and sharing playmaking/kicking responsibilities with him etc etc.

Bosh isn't going to beat England, SA, NZ or France these days .... Farrell needs to evolve and fast
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:54 am
CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 am Apart from the times we did.
We had a couple of offloads leading to Earls' break and we had POM's nudge down the line. After both we got turned over/penalised after going back to static runners off 10 behind the gainline. When did we build pressure and genuinely make a break that led to a clear cut opportunity?
Changing the goalposts?

We had Earls break and Farrell held up as chances. Overall we made 7 linebreaks.

Burns chip was the first thing that came off, we were actually trying stuff but executing badly, before that.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:54 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:41 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
I had a my uncle say the same.

The big issue for me is the lineout fluffing our two chances to build some pressure.
There's that (where one of those attacking lineouts leads to 7 points for England) but there's also how comfortable England were in defence.

We could have had all the possession in the world but until Burns did that kick over the top we never really broke the line.
I've no idea what Catt and Easterby are doing tbh ...... but I suspect the real blame lays with Farrell who seems to think Ireland are going to win rugby league style collision games against stronger packs

Watching Harry Byrne yesterday evening, he's playing a different game than the rest of our out halves .... he didn't even play that well last night but he still bamboozled the cardiff defence on numerous occasions with grubbers, out the back passes, skip passes, standing flat and punching holes, bringing frawley into the game and sharing playmaking/kicking responsibilities with him etc etc.

Bosh isn't going to beat England, SA, NZ or France these days .... Farrell needs to evolve and fast
You need to stop comparing Pro 14 games on an international weekend to international rugby. Cam was at it too with his 'McGrath is back' comments.

Byrne can execute all that because of the hell of a lot more time FHs get on the ball. Same way his brother was doing same at the same level.

Harry may be able to bring his game up the levels but let's see him tested first.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by anonymous_joe »

CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:58 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:54 am
CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 am Apart from the times we did.
We had a couple of offloads leading to Earls' break and we had POM's nudge down the line. After both we got turned over/penalised after going back to static runners off 10 behind the gainline. When did we build pressure and genuinely make a break that led to a clear cut opportunity?
Changing the goalposts?

We had Earls break and Farrell held up as chances. Overall we made 7 linebreaks.

Burns chip was the first thing that came off, we were actually trying stuff but executing badly, before that.
Is the point not that if we make two or three offloads in one attack, it's still only one attack?

Saying Ireland's attack is weak is hardly revelatory.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

anonymous_joe wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:00 pm
CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:58 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:54 am
CM11 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 am Apart from the times we did.
We had a couple of offloads leading to Earls' break and we had POM's nudge down the line. After both we got turned over/penalised after going back to static runners off 10 behind the gainline. When did we build pressure and genuinely make a break that led to a clear cut opportunity?
Changing the goalposts?

We had Earls break and Farrell held up as chances. Overall we made 7 linebreaks.

Burns chip was the first thing that came off, we were actually trying stuff but executing badly, before that.
Is the point not that if we make two or three offloads in one attack, it's still only one attack?

Saying Ireland's attack is weak is hardly revelatory.
I've even said it's bad in the post you've replied to. :?

That doesn't change the fact that we did get behind England before Stockdale's try.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by anonymous_joe »

I mean, we scored a try late in the game having done f all else.

It's not a sign our attack works.

Both of Stockdale's (excellent) recent tries come after the other team has us comfortably beaten. They're consolation tries, nothing more.

Years of ignoring the value of attack are damaging us.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:54 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:41 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
I had a my uncle say the same.

The big issue for me is the lineout fluffing our two chances to build some pressure.
There's that (where one of those attacking lineouts leads to 7 points for England) but there's also how comfortable England were in defence.

We could have had all the possession in the world but until Burns did that kick over the top we never really broke the line.
I've no idea what Catt and Easterby are doing tbh ...... but I suspect the real blame lays with Farrell who seems to think Ireland are going to win rugby league style collision games against stronger packs

Watching Harry Byrne yesterday evening, he's playing a different game than the rest of our out halves .... he didn't even play that well last night but he still bamboozled the cardiff defence on numerous occasions with grubbers, out the back passes, skip passes, standing flat and punching holes, bringing frawley into the game and sharing playmaking/kicking responsibilities with him etc etc.

Bosh isn't going to beat England, SA, NZ or France these days .... Farrell needs to evolve and fast
Yeah I definitely agree with that but some of it goes back to the provinces as well. They are perfectly happy bullying opposition at Pro14 level but have less of a clue how to win when they themselves are getting physically dominated. You look at Munster this evening with a lock at 6 and two 8s to complete the backrow. Gives you a fair idea of how they are going to play the game. Same with Leinster to some extent with their 6/2 split on the bench the past few weeks.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mullet 2 »

Winnie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:29 am
rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
What everyone forgets is that Sexton had a chance to put us two scores clear but spent about an hour thinking about the kick that he could have knocked over with his cap that he completely shit the bed
Leinster huh.

Even when it was the bears I knew it was them
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mullet 2 »

The other thing is that the ruck change across the bored seem to have made it very hard to retain possession after a line break.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jim Lahey »

Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:24 pm The other thing is that the ruck change across the bored seem to have made it very hard to retain possession after a line break.
A potential positive for this will mean the need for smaller, faster ESFs, which can only be good for the game in general and us as a nation of short arses.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:24 pm The other thing is that the ruck change across the bored seem to have made it very hard to retain possession after a line break.
Definitive difference between how they are reffing in NZ/Oz and how the NH refs are interpreting it. A lot of those England turnovers would have been penalties the other way.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

anonymous_joe wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:13 pm I mean, we scored a try late in the game having done f all else.

It's not a sign our attack works.

Both of Stockdale's (excellent) recent tries come after the other team has us comfortably beaten. They're consolation tries, nothing more.

Years of ignoring the value of attack are damaging us.
The question is how to improve the attack with what we have. Can we play an offloading game like the French? I would say probably we don't win enough collisions to actually play that game. The evidence of Saturday backs that up. Would we be better emulating NZ, do we have the personnel to play that type of game? At the moment I would say no but some of the youngsters coming through with the right training maybe that's the best way to go.

To play that way you need to play with variety and have guys who can kick/pass/run equally well. To be fair, I think that's why Gibson-Park was selected (the choice of wings as well). He had a mixed bag but it was better than selecting Murray. Byrne unfortunately kicked poorly for a lot of the match and we already know he's not a running threat. Other guys that could have given us something of that, Ringrose & Addison, were injured. As well as Johnny of course.

That's the mitigation for Catt. But there aren't a lot of positives. It's a bit too similar to Schmidt without the accuracy or strike plays.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

camroc1 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:42 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:32 pm
Bogbunny wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:18 pm
Winnie wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:16 pm The welsh are still loyal to their clubs
They never really bought into it
The fact they lose every week doesn’t help

Thought the Scarlets were basically Llanelli??
They are all basically clubs, that line doesnt wash.
Llanelli and Cardiff remained as sole clubs.
Ospreys were an amalgamation of Neath and Swansea
Dragons of Newport, and Ebbw Vale, and
The Celtic Warriors (remember them ?) Bridgend, and Pontypridd
The original teams in the Celtic league were Bridgend, Caerphilly, Cardiff, Ebbw Vale, Llanelli, Neath, Newport, Pontypridd and Swansea. The first proposal was that Llanelli, Swansea and Neath would be one region. Cardiff, Bridgend and Pontypridd be another, and Newport, Caerphilly and Ebbw Vale would be a third. There was also going to be a fourth side based in Wrexham, not really tied to any of the traditional (major) clubs. In typical fashion (not that the Irish clubs would be much different), they couldn't agree and went through a number of proposals and formats before the current.

To my mind the Ospreys were the only region to ever really embrace the concept - creating a new identity distinct from their predecessor clubs. To pretty much anyone looking on from inside or outside Wales:
Dragons=Newport RFC, Blues = Cardiff RFC & Scarlets = Llanelli RFC
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

Catt's record so far:

1 try against Scotland
4 against Wales
2 against England
7 against Italy
3 against France
2 against Wales
1 against England

20 tries in 7 games or, discounting Italy, 13 in 6 (2.1 per game). It's not appalling but it's pretty poor and already trending downwards. To have gotten 4+2 against Wales/England earlier in the year but only 2+1 more recently is worrying.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mullet 2 »

SFBB wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:28 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:24 pm The other thing is that the ruck change across the bored seem to have made it very hard to retain possession after a line break.
Definitive difference between how they are reffing in NZ/Oz and how the NH refs are interpreting it. A lot of those England turnovers would have been penalties the other way.
Maro's new trick of supporting his body weight on the ball before pulling it away and falling forward is particularly interesting.

I'm not sure of is or isn't legal
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jim Lahey »

hermie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:56 pm Catt's record so far:

1 try against Scotland
4 against Wales
2 against England
7 against Italy
3 against France
2 against Wales
1 against England

20 tries in 7 games or, discounting Italy, 13 in 6 (2.1 per game). It's not appalling but it's pretty poor and already trending downwards. To have gotten 4+2 against Wales/England earlier in the year but only 2+1 more recently is worrying.
I think a better metric is possession % to try scored ratio as a way of determining the effectiveness of our attack.

We might score 2 tries in a game but if we have 65% possession and spend most of it running into a brick wall it can be demoralising and attritional. And then if we f**k up 1 ruck clean out a pen is awarded and we are 40 yards down the pitch defending a maul.

I don’t know or have the relevant stats to back it up but my impression is that we consistently have more possession than the opposition during games. That’s great in terms of ball retention but if we could add a bit of flair and creativity it would make us a very good team.

Catt doesn’t have the luxury of a once in a generation player like BOD or someone with bags of pace like Jonny May so he needs smart players that can keep a defence guessing. We have Sexton and possibly Ringrose as two decent decision makers (excluding the St James Park incident for Ringrose) but we need more, or we need a Schmidt-type preprogrammed gameplan that everyone knows how to execute.

I think we are pretty f**ked for the foreseeable future lads :thumbdown:
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

Flametop wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:42 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 am Lads tell me if I'm mad.

Spoke to the old man yesterday and my brother this morning doing the school run about the game. Both of them were of the opinion that because England had to make 240 odd tackles, they were shit and didn't show anything in attack, and that we had chances to win the match.

My rebuttal was that it has been evident for quite some time now that we are shite in attack so they obviously booted the ball away to us to let us sit in our own shit long enough until we f**ked up and then took advantage. My view is that we never looked like winning that game and that England were in 2nd gear because they simply didn't have to get out of it. The score-line massively flattered Ireland as that was not a 2-score game.

Then I got met by both of them with the old "Well you must have been watching a different game" response and they went on about England being shite in attack and it was only because we didn't take our chances that we didn't win.

Both are semi-knowledgeable rugby fellas. I was completely flabbergasted by their opinions.

Am I over-egging the situation? Did we actually have opportunities to win that game? I'm really second-guessing myself here!
You’re all right.
England were shit with the ball but we were shitter.
Yeah, I think this is true to some extent. Englands defence is awesome, but (and full credit to them for it) a lot of it stems from how they mess up your primary possession. If you prevent them doing that, your job in attack gets a lot easier. Nonetheless we made life even harder for ourselves on top of that, IMO, by:
- trying to play around their rush, by passing back and then wide. But we haven't got players with the distribution skills in our midfield to do this. So much of our passing (and alignment) was sloppy and allowed their defence time to catch us way behind the gainline.
- not using the blind-side enough
- not using fast skip passes from 9 to 12/13 (where we had a big size advantage) off ruck ball, until Murray came on
- always trying to play to the edges rather than occasionally setting up in midfield and splitting their defence, especially with kicks-behind
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by rfurlong »

hermie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:38 pm
anonymous_joe wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:13 pm I mean, we scored a try late in the game having done f all else.

It's not a sign our attack works.

Both of Stockdale's (excellent) recent tries come after the other team has us comfortably beaten. They're consolation tries, nothing more.

Years of ignoring the value of attack are damaging us.
The question is how to improve the attack with what we have. Can we play an offloading game like the French? I would say probably we don't win enough collisions to actually play that game. The evidence of Saturday backs that up. Would we be better emulating NZ, do we have the personnel to play that type of game? At the moment I would say no but some of the youngsters coming through with the right training maybe that's the best way to go.

To play that way you need to play with variety and have guys who can kick/pass/run equally well. To be fair, I think that's why Gibson-Park was selected (the choice of wings as well). He had a mixed bag but it was better than selecting Murray. Byrne unfortunately kicked poorly for a lot of the match and we already know he's not a running threat. Other guys that could have given us something of that, Ringrose & Addison, were injured. As well as Johnny of course.

That's the mitigation for Catt. But there aren't a lot of positives. It's a bit too similar to Schmidt without the accuracy or strike plays.
thats it in a nutshell
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DOB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

Winnie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:29 am
rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
What everyone forgets is that Sexton had a chance to put us two scores clear but spent about an hour thinking about the kick that he could have knocked over with his cap that he completely shit the bed
If should’ve been put into the corner and smash over for the try.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jim Lahey »

DOB wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:29 pm
Winnie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:29 am
rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
What everyone forgets is that Sexton had a chance to put us two scores clear but spent about an hour thinking about the kick that he could have knocked over with his cap that he completely shit the bed
If should’ve been put into the corner and smash over for the try.
Wasn’t Rory Best playing that day?
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DOB
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

Wasn’t Rory Best playing that day?
We’d won the penalty off a lineout drive. It didn’t need to be fancy.

The stats don’t tell me the timing of the penalty or the substitutions, but Cronin, McCarthy and McLaughlin had replaced Best, Toner and POM by the end. The only one of those that weakens the lineout is McCarthy.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Winnie »

Mullet 2 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:20 pm
Winnie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:29 am
rfurlong wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 am Also 7 years since that game that never happened. Just got a FB reminder of me looking devastated in the pub afterwards.

I was hanging from the night before and Balcony Bob's intercept singlehandedly cured my hangover enough so that I could get back on the pints of Guinness. Then those kunts Nigel Owens and Ryan Crotty conspired to turn it into probably my worst rugby experience :thumbdown:

I was at the game with my two lads aged 10 and 8 at the time

I steadfastly refused to believe we were going to win the match at any stage, just in order to keep some semblance of calm. The missus had also told me not to be shouting and roaring at everything with the two impressionable young fellas in tow :lol:

I turned around with about 40 seconds left and hugged them both and told them they were witnessing history. I told them I was so happy to have shared the moment with them and that it would be one of my abiding memories in life.

I told them that I hoped it would be a special memory for them also, that they could recall over the duration of their lives and maybe share with their kids.

And then Nigel kicked me and everyone else in the balls :x
What everyone forgets is that Sexton had a chance to put us two scores clear but spent about an hour thinking about the kick that he could have knocked over with his cap that he completely shit the bed
Leinster huh.

Even when it was the bears I knew it was them
Not sure
He may have been Racing back then I’d need to check if I could be arsed
Nolanator
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Nolanator »

Best had broken his arm, so was off reasonably early in that game.
Yer Man
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Yer Man »

DOB wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:42 pm
Wasn’t Rory Best playing that day?
We’d won the penalty off a lineout drive. It didn’t need to be fancy.

The stats don’t tell me the timing of the penalty or the substitutions, but Cronin, McCarthy and McLaughlin had replaced Best, Toner and POM by the end. The only one of those that weakens the lineout is McCarthy.
Best broke his arm that day - went off after 14 minutes (although the arm break was at least two ruck clearouts earlier).
Cronin played arguably his best ever game in Green.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Nolanator »

I've never re-watched that game, for obvious reasons, but I want to watch Deccie Fitz's performance again. Who knew the man had it in him?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

Jim Lahey wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:19 pm
hermie wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:56 pm Catt's record so far:

1 try against Scotland
4 against Wales
2 against England
7 against Italy
3 against France
2 against Wales
1 against England

20 tries in 7 games or, discounting Italy, 13 in 6 (2.1 per game). It's not appalling but it's pretty poor and already trending downwards. To have gotten 4+2 against Wales/England earlier in the year but only 2+1 more recently is worrying.
I think a better metric is possession % to try scored ratio as a way of determining the effectiveness of our attack.

We might score 2 tries in a game but if we have 65% possession and spend most of it running into a brick wall it can be demoralising and attritional. And then if we f**k up 1 ruck clean out a pen is awarded and we are 40 yards down the pitch defending a maul.

I don’t know or have the relevant stats to back it up but my impression is that we consistently have more possession than the opposition during games. That’s great in terms of ball retention but if we could add a bit of flair and creativity it would make us a very good team.

Catt doesn’t have the luxury of a once in a generation player like BOD or someone with bags of pace like Jonny May so he needs smart players that can keep a defence guessing. We have Sexton and possibly Ringrose as two decent decision makers (excluding the St James Park incident for Ringrose) but we need more, or we need a Schmidt-type preprogrammed gameplan that everyone knows how to execute.

I think we are pretty f**ked for the foreseeable future lads :thumbdown:
I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

Something like:

Carbery/Addison*
Larmour
Ringrose
Henshaw
Lowe (or an in-form Stockdale)
Sexton/Byrne jnr
Cooney/Casey

Would have plenty of attacking potential. I'd be less optimistic of the current coaches getting the best out of them.

* with Frawley becoming an option at 12 if neither of those pan out.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DOB »

Yer Man wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:50 pm
DOB wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:42 pm
Wasn’t Rory Best playing that day?
We’d won the penalty off a lineout drive. It didn’t need to be fancy.

The stats don’t tell me the timing of the penalty or the substitutions, but Cronin, McCarthy and McLaughlin had replaced Best, Toner and POM by the end. The only one of those that weakens the lineout is McCarthy.
Best broke his arm that day - went off after 14 minutes (although the arm break was at least two ruck clearouts earlier).
Cronin played arguably his best ever game in Green.
How could I, or Jim, have forgotten?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conn »

Leinster and Munster types. How many HEC games have Healy, Casey, Harry Byrne and Frawley played ?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by danthefan »

Conn wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:35 pm Leinster and Munster types. How many HEC games have Healy, Casey, Harry Byrne and Frawley played ?
Harry Byrne - none
Frawley - probably none, maybe the odd appearance
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Hellraiser »

Conn wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:35 pm Leinster and Munster types. How many HEC games have Healy, Casey, Harry Byrne and Frawley played ?
Healy - one replacement appearance last season.
Casey - two replacement appearances last season.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Conn wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:35 pm Leinster and Munster types. How many HEC games have Healy, Casey, Harry Byrne and Frawley played ?
In his 20 year old season, Harry Byrne made 0 HEC appearances.
In his 21/22 year old season, Ciaran Frawley made 3 HEC sub appearances.
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