Planet Rugby Forum

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

unseenwork wrote:

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

The granny rule is bullshit too and I'd be rid of them.

sewa wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

The granny rule is bullshit too and I'd be rid of them.

When did you get to decide who is or isn't Irish?

shabadoo wrote:I can't wait till we win the world cup. It's gonna be f**king awesome.

earl the beaver wrote:Addison, Murphy and Marmion training with Ireland despite being culled.

Jim Lahey wrote:I blame arts degrees for the f**king state of this argument

Jim Lahey wrote:I blame arts degrees for the f**king state of this argument

earl the beaver wrote:Addison, Murphy and Marmion training with Ireland despite being culled.

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

Liathroidigloine wrote:

irishrugbyua wrote:Sounds like Paddy McKenzie(Wicklow/Old Wesley) was very good for Leinster A last weekend after replacing Harry Byrne at half-time, who himself was excellent.

I'd say it will be between McKenzie and Jack Crowley for starting 10 for the 20s.

McKenzie is a fine player. He stood out any time I saw him play. He's also a fairly big unit for a 10.

Coleman98 wrote:Matt Williams is astonished in the Irish Times


Matt Williams: Getting rid of Devin Toner beggars belief

Last Updated: Tuesday, September 3, 2019, 06:00

On the Thursday afternoon before the opening game of this year’s Six Nations against England, my phone started to light up. Joe Schmidt had selected Robbie Henshaw at fullback against Eddie Jones’s English team.
I was astonished.

Sections of the rugby media were trying to contact me to get a reaction, as they had the incorrect perception that I was opposed to Joe Schmidt’s coaching. Nothing could be further from the truth. On so many occasions I have publicly stated that Joe is one of the most knowledgeable and capable coaches I have ever come across.

Up until that day, to my mind, Joe Schmidt had always been shrewd, calculated and exceptionally well planned. That all changed when he selected Henshaw – one of the world’s best inside centres – at fullback. I was gobsmacked.

I said at the time that it was “the most un-Joe Schmidt decision I had ever seen.” Robbie’s credentials as a Test match standard fullback were, to say the least, exceptionally poor. And sadly for him he had a poor day at fullback. He should never have been played there and it was unfair on him.

To cut to the chase, it was a poor selection by Joe. The ramifications of that day led to the current malaise that Ireland find themselves in on the eve of a World Cup. Against England at the Aviva the Irish players lost confidence in themselves and their coaches.

And now, history repeats itself. I’m totally dumbfounded at the exclusion of Dev Toner from the World Cup squad.
Devin Toner in the Ireland huddle during the Captain’s Run ahead of the Wales game. Photograph: Dan Sheridan/Inpho
Last January a member of the Irish team told me that Dev was on the outside. I couldn’t believe it. When I asked why, I was answered with a shrug of the shoulders. “They want him out.”

When Dev Toner started his career with Leinster I doubted the giant could be anything more than friendly. I was so very wrong. Toner has developed into an excellent international secondrow.

I regard him as the most improved player in Irish rugby. The physicality in his performance against New Zealand in November 2018 was simply astonishing. While the New Zealand game can be regarded as ancient history, Dev’s ability as the best communicator and caller of lineouts in Ireland is much undervalued. This aspect of modern of rugby is totally misunderstood by those outside the game.

The great Irish lock Malcolm O’Kelly was the best lineout exponent I have ever had the privilege of coaching. Mal was a highly educated and intellectual student of the lineout. He was coached by the genius of Willie Anderson at both London Irish and Leinster. Mal had a huge influence on Leo Cullen when Leo was a developing player. Leo, in turn, passed all this intergenerational knowledge on to Dev.

Throw into that amazing mix of experience the knowledge and wisdom that Dev has gained from working with the great Brad Thorn and Jonno Gibbs and you have a phenomenally well educated lineout brain. One that is now, unbelievably, outside Ireland’s World Cup squad.

All of which totally appals me.

If we acknowledge that Ireland want to base a significant percentage of their attacking game on their lineout, then Dev’s ability to call and manage the set piece should have been an integral part of the game plan.
Two weeks ago against England I watched Ireland’s lineout crumble. White jerseys bullied Ireland. Like a bad school playground, good players in green didn’t seem to have the moral courage to stand up to the bullies in white. I begged for Dev to return and not only call the correct lineouts for Ireland, but also to show the steel and grit required to drive the Irish set play that is so vital to the Irish attack.

In other words, run our lineout as he has done for years. This also means dealing with opposition teams in a forceful manner and using the aggression and wisdom he has picked up over the years.

Now it appears that the internal heave against Dev that I was told about in January has come to fruition.
I feel the decision to remove Dev is more a reflection on Joe Schmidt. Joe appears tired and weary of the battle. His time is coming to end and for me, that time cannot come quickly enough. Joe has been a great coach, but his decisions are indicative of a regime out of touch with the team and the people.

This year has been a poor one for the national team. This selection only adds to the malaise.

To leave Dev out and include a recently qualified South African is to ignore internal team dynamics. No current player is going to publicly criticise this decision, but internally players won’t be pleased. This has nothing to do with Jean Kleyn. He is the innocent in this story. He is eligible and should not be criticised in any way. I wish him well.

But the reality of replacing a long standing and much loved veteran with a recently qualified non-indigenous player does not promote internal cohesion within any Irish team.

Who is going to boss Ireland lineouts now? Who is going to have the smarts to out-manoeuvre the well educated lineout defenders of New Zealand or South Africa?

I can’t answer that. But I know Dev Toner could.

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

Mullet 2 wrote:Well I'll have to content myself with knowing BOD thinks I'm right.

Now I know you and Jumper have more Lions tours but still.

The very concept of an international rugby game is founded in pride in ones country you pair of gobshites.

Wanting Irish guys playing for Ireland is xenophobic

Thick cúnts

Mullet 2 wrote:

CarrotGawks wrote:What makes them not Irish and what makes someone else actually Irish? I'd say someone living here, who's dedicated to the country, who's bought into the culture and heritage of the place is far more Irish, even without a passport, than someone, to take a current example, from the UK with an Irish granny who's applied for an Irish passport so they can swanny around the EU with ease.

Interesting questions socrates.

I mean is Toner really any more Irish than say a south African zulu? What is Irishness in this mad work a day world.

Perhaps we are all Irish. Maybe Joe should have selected Jordie Barrett.

Armchair_Superstar wrote:Luke Fitz's take on it was that its nothing to do with xenophobia, but there is something special about being Irish that makes us different to everyone else.

Jumper wrote:

Armchair_Superstar wrote:Luke Fitz's take on it was that its nothing to do with xenophobia, but there is something special about being Irish that makes us different to everyone else.

His argument was largely based about those who learned their rugby in the Irish system. Somehow, he's okay with the likes of Ruddock, Marmionn, and Addison though.

earl the beaver wrote: You mean people who actually have Irish parents and heritage? In Ruddock's case he was born in Ireland ffs.

It's not remotely comparable to the long list of poaches we've had under Joe (Payne, Stander, Kleyn, Strauss, Aki, White etc.)

Floppykid wrote:f**king hell, this thread is getting worked at fudge is it?

If an Irish player has an Irish parent, or was brought through the system, that's fine. Grandparents is iffy, but I wouldn't lose my shit over it.

Comparing the likes of Ruddock or Carbery to Kleyn etc. is dull and the people making the argument know it's dull.

Thankfully the 5 year rule will stamp out a lot of this shite in the coming years.

earl the beaver wrote:

Jumper wrote:

Armchair_Superstar wrote:Luke Fitz's take on it was that its nothing to do with xenophobia, but there is something special about being Irish that makes us different to everyone else.

His argument was largely based about those who learned their rugby in the Irish system. Somehow, he's okay with the likes of Ruddock, Marmionn, and Addison though.

You mean people who actually have Irish parents and heritage? In Ruddock's case he was born in Ireland ffs.

It's not remotely comparable to the long list of poaches we've had under Joe (Payne, Stander, Kleyn, Strauss, Aki, White etc.)

Floppykid wrote:f**king hell, this thread is getting worked at fudge is it?

If an Irish player has an Irish parent, or was brought through the system, that's fine. Grandparents is iffy, but I wouldn't lose my shit over it.

Comparing the likes of Ruddock or Carbery to Kleyn etc. is dull and the people making the argument know it's dull.

Thankfully the 5 year rule will stamp out a lot of this shite in the coming years.

Floppykid wrote:f**king hell, this thread is getting worked at fudge is it?

If an Irish player has an Irish parent, or was brought through the system, that's fine. Grandparents is iffy, but I wouldn't lose my shit over it.

Comparing the likes of Ruddock or Carbery to Kleyn etc. is dull and the people making the argument know it's dull.

Thankfully the 5 year rule will stamp out a lot of this shite in the coming years.

RWC2015 wrote:Ireland grand slam 2018, starting locks:

France:
Hendie
Ryan

Italy:
Toner
Hendie

Wales:
Toner
Ryan

Scotland:
Toner
Ryan

England:
Hendie
Ryan

Toner also started in the debacle against england in 2019, and Ryan/Hendie started in our only good 6 nations performance in 2019 V France.

The idea that we need Toner for a functional lineout is nonsense. In fact, without Toner I think others will step up and take more responsability instead of waiting for the Tone Ranger to ride in and save the day.

If always felt that Toner is the man for the likes of NZ given their defensive lineout excellence, or against smaller teams like Scotland where you can get away with the slight drop off in physicality, but against the really big bastards like france, england, Wales and South Africa, Ryan and Hendie all the way.

Toner would still travel but was clearly not in great fettle following his injury.

Jumper wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jumper wrote:

Armchair_Superstar wrote:Luke Fitz's take on it was that its nothing to do with xenophobia, but there is something special about being Irish that makes us different to everyone else.

His argument was largely based about those who learned their rugby in the Irish system. Somehow, he's okay with the likes of Ruddock, Marmionn, and Addison though.

You mean people who actually have Irish parents and heritage? In Ruddock's case he was born in Ireland ffs.

It's not remotely comparable to the long list of poaches we've had under Joe (Payne, Stander, Kleyn, Strauss, Aki, White etc.)

Fitzgerald stated that "We’re eating away at our own foundations by not picking people who’ve come through our age grade system". That sentiment does not apply to the likes of Addison whose exclusion Fitzgerald lamented. He also went down the "growing up and dreaming playing for Ireland" route. Again, that does not apply to those I listed.

If he stated that he only wants those born in Ireland or with (grand)parents from Ireland to pull on the jersey, he'd have a consistent (if xenophobic) point. However, that is not what he said.

He's also a complete hypocrite who played alongside Strauss and others for Ireland. He's almost as bad as the likes of Chris Henry who had stong opinions about Grobler despite having being captained by a "drugs cheat" while playing for Ulster.

earl the beaver wrote: Harrison did cocaine and while yes it's not a good look it's not a PED. Also Henry made his full debut the season after Harrison left.

earl the beaver wrote: Harrison did cocaine and while yes it's not a good look it's not a PED. Also Henry made his full debut the season after Harrison left.

Jumper wrote:

earl the beaver wrote: Harrison did cocaine and while yes it's not a good look it's not a PED. Also Henry made his full debut the season after Harrison left.

Wrong "drug cheat".

earl the beaver wrote:

Jumper wrote:

earl the beaver wrote: Harrison did cocaine and while yes it's not a good look it's not a PED. Also Henry made his full debut the season after Harrison left.

Wrong "drug cheat".

One is a performance enhancing drug, taken with the sole intention of gaining an advantage that would never be available naturally so that he can cheat against other clean players.

One is a recreational drug that makes you a bit of a cock

I wonder what the difference is in a sporting sense

earl the beaver wrote:

Jumper wrote:

earl the beaver wrote: Harrison did cocaine and while yes it's not a good look it's not a PED. Also Henry made his full debut the season after Harrison left.

Wrong "drug cheat".

One is a performance enhancing drug, taken with the sole intention of gaining an advantage that would never be available naturally so that he can cheat against other clean players.

One is a recreational drug that makes you a bit of a cock

I wonder what the difference is in a sporting sense

earl the beaver wrote:Carlo Del Fava captained Ulster for 3 games, none of which Henry played in as he didn't make his debut until the following season.

Ulster also signed him 7 years after his drugs ban, not during it.