Planet Rugby Forum

MrJonno wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Do we need Scotland to achieve the BP this morning? (if we want to top the pool)

I want Scotland to win without a BP - that could potentially keep them in it but make it harder for them to leapfrog us. Though it depends whether we would be better facing a Samoa side with nothing but pride to play for in the last match or one with the prospect of qualifying. If Samoa lose this and do a number on Japan that could be good.

It doesn't matter aside from keeping their hopes alive, assuming we get 2 BP wins Scotland can't overtake us

We just want them to beat Japan

Are we cheering for Samoa then?

de_Selby wrote:

MrJonno wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Do we need Scotland to achieve the BP this morning? (if we want to top the pool)

I want Scotland to win without a BP - that could potentially keep them in it but make it harder for them to leapfrog us. Though it depends whether we would be better facing a Samoa side with nothing but pride to play for in the last match or one with the prospect of qualifying. If Samoa lose this and do a number on Japan that could be good.

It doesn't matter aside from keeping their hopes alive, assuming we get 2 BP wins Scotland can't overtake us

We just want them to beat Japan

I'm not going to take our BPs (or even win against Samoa) for granted and although we just need Scotland to beat Japan, if they are out by then they might just crumble

de_Selby wrote:

MrJonno wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Do we need Scotland to achieve the BP this morning? (if we want to top the pool)

I want Scotland to win without a BP - that could potentially keep them in it but make it harder for them to leapfrog us. Though it depends whether we would be better facing a Samoa side with nothing but pride to play for in the last match or one with the prospect of qualifying. If Samoa lose this and do a number on Japan that could be good.

It doesn't matter aside from keeping their hopes alive, assuming we get 2 BP wins Scotland can't overtake us

We just want them to beat Japan

They're more likely to beat Japan if they are in the hunt for a QF spot surely.

Are Samoa still I’m the hunt if they beat Scotland also?
More fired up against us in our final pool game?

EverReady wrote:

Flametop wrote:Are we cheering for Samoa then?

Yes and then Japan and then we go down in flames with our pride intact

I like flames.

EverReady wrote:

Flametop wrote:Are we cheering for Samoa then?

Yes and then Japan and then we go down in flames with our pride intact

So you think Italy will beat SA and NZ! Ballsy call, I like your style

Samoa are playing like Ireland on a good day.

Owen Doyle in todays IT. When the ref allows the oppo interfere with your ball at will, and then also allows them to illegally remove our jacklers on their ball, you haven't a hope.

However, it cannot be avoided that the breakdown was a Japanese free for all.

Joe Schmidt alluded to it in his post match interview.

Japan persistently put players past the breakdown, obstructing, holding onto, and taking out Irish players; and this gave them a lot of forward momentum.

I lost count of the number of times that the Irish poacher was taken out illegally. One of these upended Peter O’Mahony who was then penalised for going off his feet.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4034263

anonymous_joe wrote:

CM11 wrote:
Very helpful comment.

We opened up well and attacked well. We scored off that good attack. We then lost control of the ball and had very little to work with for a while to attack either poorly or well. By the time we had more ball to attack with we'd started running in treacle and had to revert to basics.

In short, I'm less worried about our attack than I am about our conditioning.

Helpful my hoop, we scored 12 points early on and then did nothing for 60-odd minutes. That's not suggestive of a viable attack.

Suggesting we "lost control of the ball" omits to mention how frequently we gave them the ball. You can't kick the ball away and then be surprised when the other team has it. The lack of fluency with ball in hand is something we've all been moaning about for months now, since the 6 Nations.

Did you watch the match in a parallel universe? We kicked 19 times, same as them. Half as much as we did against Scotland.

Not playing our normal kicking game was part of the problem.

Red card.

WR have decided Scotland should win this

Nolanator wrote:

Yer Man wrote:

danthefan wrote:I didn't realise/had blanked out that their try came off that Stander/Farrell clusterfuck.

Honestly what the hell was that?

I'm guessing the call was Farrell on the crash ball, no idea why Stander kept the ball.
Or if it was Stander to call it up then why is the 12 running into the same area.
A complete f*cked up of a simple quick strike and carry to improve the angle and then clear to touch.

But we were making stupid errors all game.

It was a simple play to set up a ruck as part of the exit play. 8 draws defenders crabbing away from the scrum, 12 hits back against the grain. Front foot ball, kick clear.
They just fluffed their lines and timing completely.

Unforgivable at that level, but it was just a simple pattern done terribly.

That's the one that really stands out to me as well. Unforgivable as you say to give them a scrum in our 22 like that. All Stander's fault by the way. He pops the ball off then inexplicably continues his run right into Farrell's line. I've seen it mentioned that Farrell had a poor game or that 'everybody' was bad. I actually thought the centres were both very good and cannot be faulted for the dross going on inside and out.

MrJonno wrote:WR have decided Scotland should win this

Cammy would you give over about the ref. He wasn't in the top 5 reasons we lost that game. We could even have had a YC for persistent offside. Our discipline was shocking.

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:Not playing Conway was criminal. We got some purchase with kicks down the right hand side but didn't make the most of it. His aerial ability could have hammered that home. Earls could have played on the left. Unfortunately Stockdale was shite.

Except we barely played an aerial game and the bits we did try paid off.

But Murray box-kicked down the right hand side to great effect against Scotland. We knew Japan were weak down that side yet for some reason didn't box kick there. It could have been personnel or tactics. Either way it was a mistake.

CM11 wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:

CM11 wrote:
Very helpful comment.

We opened up well and attacked well. We scored off that good attack. We then lost control of the ball and had very little to work with for a while to attack either poorly or well. By the time we had more ball to attack with we'd started running in treacle and had to revert to basics.

In short, I'm less worried about our attack than I am about our conditioning.

Helpful my hoop, we scored 12 points early on and then did nothing for 60-odd minutes. That's not suggestive of a viable attack.

Suggesting we "lost control of the ball" omits to mention how frequently we gave them the ball. You can't kick the ball away and then be surprised when the other team has it. The lack of fluency with ball in hand is something we've all been moaning about for months now, since the 6 Nations.

Did you watch the match in a parallel universe? We kicked 19 times, same as them. Half as much as we did against Scotland.

Not playing our normal kicking game was part of the problem.

The difference between both teams is what they did with the ball. Japan had 40 more passes than we did with the ball, mostly amongst the backs.

Both teams kicked the ball equal amounts of time on similar possession stats, the fundamental difference is that unlike Ireland, Japan with the ball were much more likely to retain than Ireland would by passing the ball to a wider player. You can argue we should have kicked more, but our kicking wasn't effective or threatening.

hermie wrote:

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:Not playing Conway was criminal. We got some purchase with kicks down the right hand side but didn't make the most of it. His aerial ability could have hammered that home. Earls could have played on the left. Unfortunately Stockdale was shite.

Except we barely played an aerial game and the bits we did try paid off.

But Murray box-kicked down the right hand side to great effect against Scotland. We knew Japan were weak down that side yet for some reason didn't box kick there. It could have been personnel or tactics. Either way it was a mistake.

I completely agree and have said so already. We did it maybe once in the second half when we went back to basics but by then we didn't have the energy.

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:Not playing Conway was criminal. We got some purchase with kicks down the right hand side but didn't make the most of it. His aerial ability could have hammered that home. Earls could have played on the left. Unfortunately Stockdale was shite.

Except we barely played an aerial game and the bits we did try paid off.

But Murray box-kicked down the right hand side to great effect against Scotland. We knew Japan were weak down that side yet for some reason didn't box kick there. It could have been personnel or tactics. Either way it was a mistake.

I completely agree and have said so already. We did it maybe once in the second half when we went back to basics but by then we didn't have the energy.

Oh right, you seemed to be disagreeing that Conway could have made a difference.

anonymous_joe wrote:

CM11 wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:

CM11 wrote:
Very helpful comment.

We opened up well and attacked well. We scored off that good attack. We then lost control of the ball and had very little to work with for a while to attack either poorly or well. By the time we had more ball to attack with we'd started running in treacle and had to revert to basics.

In short, I'm less worried about our attack than I am about our conditioning.

Helpful my hoop, we scored 12 points early on and then did nothing for 60-odd minutes. That's not suggestive of a viable attack.

Suggesting we "lost control of the ball" omits to mention how frequently we gave them the ball. You can't kick the ball away and then be surprised when the other team has it. The lack of fluency with ball in hand is something we've all been moaning about for months now, since the 6 Nations.

Did you watch the match in a parallel universe? We kicked 19 times, same as them. Half as much as we did against Scotland.

Not playing our normal kicking game was part of the problem.

The difference between both teams is what they did with the ball. Japan had 40 more passes than we did with the ball, mostly amongst the backs.

Both teams kicked the ball equal amounts of time on similar possession stats, the fundamental difference is that unlike Ireland, Japan with the ball were much more likely to retain than Ireland would by passing the ball to a wider player. You can argue we should have kicked more, but our kicking wasn't effective or threatening.

We didn't execute a traditional kicking game although most of the kicks we executed on our terms were effective. The ones that weren't were when we were rattled and were kicking for the sake of it.

hermie wrote:Cammy would you give over about the ref. He wasn't in the top 5 reasons we lost that game. We could even have had a YC for persistent offside. Our discipline was shocking.

I'd say top 3.

We were far too cocky but they got away with murder at the breakdown. Furlong and Murray both had incidents in the second half where there was an obvious penalty at the breakdown and they stopped playing because they hadn't grasped that they were getting nothing off Gardner.

hermie wrote:

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:Not playing Conway was criminal. We got some purchase with kicks down the right hand side but didn't make the most of it. His aerial ability could have hammered that home. Earls could have played on the left. Unfortunately Stockdale was shite.

Except we barely played an aerial game and the bits we did try paid off.

But Murray box-kicked down the right hand side to great effect against Scotland. We knew Japan were weak down that side yet for some reason didn't box kick there. It could have been personnel or tactics. Either way it was a mistake.

I completely agree and have said so already. We did it maybe once in the second half when we went back to basics but by then we didn't have the energy.

Oh right, you seemed to be disagreeing that Conway could have made a difference.

I don't think Conway is that relevant. We've executed an effective box kick strategy with that back three before. You could argue Earls is waning and Conway deserves to be ahead in general and I might agree with you on that although I'd need to have a good think about it!

Looks like the Scots gave us a false sense of superiority. They're not exactly lighting up against Samoa.

Commentators saying the conditions are very wet but stadium has roof? Humidity again? Are we playing there?

We’re playing there on Thursday . Scotland will win this comfortably tbf

Conditions are woeful with the humidity.

Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

CM11 wrote: I don't think Conway is that relevant. We've executed an effective box kick strategy with that back three before. You could argue Earls is waning and Conway deserves to be ahead in general and I might agree with you on that although I'd need to have a good think about it!

Earls is brave in the air but nowhere near as competitive as Conway, who gives you a much better chance of a clean take. I would argue that if Conway was picked on the right we would have seen more kicking in that area.

rialtoblue wrote:Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

Them scraping a win without the bonus but subsequently pulling out a huge performance, with their backs to the wall, against Japan too much to ask?

Quite clear from all the knock ons that Scotland aren’t used to handling a bar of soap on a regular basis.

Samoa are very poor. Finn Russell if he’s on song is class

Let’s hope he brings that in the last game

hermie wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

Them scraping a win without the bonus but subsequently pulling out a huge performance, with their backs to the wall, against Japan too much to ask?

Looks like they'll get the bonus. It's not the end of the world at all if they do.

rialtoblue wrote:Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

Opposite for me. Samoa have tits for hands and v happy to kick uncontested to the back 3.

Predictable enough now that they helpfully shoved Laidlaw over the line.

Will Samoa be as shit against us and will they be even dirtier?

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

Them scraping a win without the bonus but subsequently pulling out a huge performance, with their backs to the wall, against Japan too much to ask?

Looks like they'll get the bonus. It's not the end of the world at all if they do.

Does it make much of a difference? We’ll get bonus points against both Russia and Samoa so basically
It will mean the winner of the Scotland/Japan game determines who we play in the quarter ?

fishooks15 wrote:Samoa are very poor. Finn Russell if he’s on song is class

Let’s hope he brings that in the last game

Part of me wants Japan to qualify. And the best scenario for that is us getting the 16 points and Japan getting to 15 with Scotland 14.

That said, I'm ambivalent about who we get in the quarters now. We can beat both with our A game and honestly we'll probably be more focused against NZ.

fishooks15 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

hermie wrote:

rialtoblue wrote:Scotland looking shite and Samoa looking less so

Them scraping a win without the bonus but subsequently pulling out a huge performance, with their backs to the wall, against Japan too much to ask?

Looks like they'll get the bonus. It's not the end of the world at all if they do.

Does it make much of a difference? We’ll get bonus points against both Russia and Samoa so basically
It will mean the winner of the Scotland/Japan game determines who we play in the quarter ?

It makes no difference as long as we get 10 points. It makes some difference if we get 9 as all teams could finish on 15 and then it's PD, I think.

CM11 wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Samoa are very poor. Finn Russell if he’s on song is class

Let’s hope he brings that in the last game

Part of me wants Japan to qualify. And the best scenario for that is us getting the 16 points and Japan getting to 15 with Scotland 14.

That said, I'm ambivalent about who we get in the quarters now. We can beat both with our A game and honestly we'll probably be more focused against NZ.

Would tend to agree. We won’t beat SA or NZ without our A game so I’m not sure if it makes a huge difference.

Also think we’d have more joy up front against NZ

CM11 wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Samoa are very poor. Finn Russell if he’s on song is class

Let’s hope he brings that in the last game

Part of me wants Japan to qualify. And the best scenario for that is us getting the 16 points and Japan getting to 15 with Scotland 14.

That said, I'm ambivalent about who we get in the quarters now. We can beat both with our A game and honestly we'll probably be more focused against NZ.

Still think neither of them want us either.

Japan won’t best NZ and SA have had their warning already and will be out for revenge.

fishooks15 wrote:

CM11 wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Samoa are very poor. Finn Russell if he’s on song is class

Let’s hope he brings that in the last game

Part of me wants Japan to qualify. And the best scenario for that is us getting the 16 points and Japan getting to 15 with Scotland 14.

That said, I'm ambivalent about who we get in the quarters now. We can beat both with our A game and honestly we'll probably be more focused against NZ.

Would tend to agree. We won’t beat SA or NZ without our A game so I’m not sure if it makes a huge difference.

Also think we’d have more joy up front against NZ

NZ wont make the same mistake again at selecting their loosehead

Craig Doyle says Scotland have been brilliant.

Disagree that it doesn't make a difference. If NZ bring their A game we've no chance. South Africa's best is a little more comparable to ours. Although I do take the point that we can struggle against bigger packs and the Boks are assuredly that.