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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:25 am
by nardol
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
With Sexton for another year at least Byrne x 2 and Frawley all likely to move ahead of Carbs.... it makes sense.


At fullback Ireland have Larmour and then its straight to who... Addison?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:34 am
by camroc1
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:37 am
by earl the beaver
IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:43 am
by rialtoblue
earl the beaver wrote:IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison.
Massive squad, so no real quibbles. Maybe surprise that Connors is ahead of Nordi

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:44 am
by earl the beaver
rialtoblue wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison.
Massive squad, so no real quibbles. Maybe surprise that Connors is ahead of Nordi
At the same time the IT article on from Monday suggests Addison and Moore limping off at the weekend for Ulster means they'll miss the cut for at least the opening two rounds.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:44 am
by Mullet 2
Duff Paddy wrote:
nardol wrote:Carbs is going to drift into obscurity.

Ditching him was probably a decent call from a Leinster pov in hindsight.
He can’t string a good run of games together without getting injured. Just seems to be one of those unlucky players.
You were telling me two weeks ago he was ahead of Byrne

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:47 am
by Mullet 2
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:50 am
by boringperson12
CM11 wrote:You guys can have Sexton.
I'd take him in a heartbeat and use him as a player/coach - two or three bollockings from him would do more for McCloskey's and Marshall's hands than Soper will ever do.

Otherwise, if Frawley can keep his willy in his pants, I'd risk another ginger outhalf.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:52 am
by nardol
earl the beaver wrote:IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney x( , Will Addison.

My preferred starting 15

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am
by Ulsters Red Hand
is that the same Billy Burns who is worse than all four Leinster outhalves and about 8th best in the whole of Ireland?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:59 am
by Ulsters Red Hand
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
That’s good backtracking there Mullet

I didnt think the “Messiah” would have been limited to the position he plays in

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:05 am
by Nolanator
Mullet 2 wrote:30% of them are injured at any one time.
This is the reality of modern rugby. While the headline may be a huge number of quality players all fighting for limited positions, there's never a time where all are fit together.
A team with pretentions of winning in Europe and domestically needs serious squad depth with a high average quality level.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:18 am
by DOB
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
Carberry is as able to play 10 as he is 15. He needs it to be in the right structure, though. And with smart players around him who know how to work off him. And to actually put a run of games together where he stays fit.

And Munster need a lot more surgery than just adding Frawley to their current backline.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:19 am
by Jim Lahey
earl the beaver wrote:IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison.
Hard to argue with that, beyond Earls. He’s in shocking form. Balacoune would have been a much better choice.
You could throw ESP1TP into that category but he was never going to be dropped.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:21 am
by PornDog
Munster do not need another 10!!!!

Assuming Bleedinhell is done they still have Joey and JJ.

Johnston already left for game time and came off the bench for Ulster against Clermont. Even with Munsters current injuries I doubt if he would have been on Munsters bench at the weekend if he had stayed. He may turn out to be shite, but ye never invested the game time in him to find out.

Blood Healy and Flannery FFS - they're similar ages to Frawley and H Byrne anyway.

And its a similar situation for a backrow going to Munster. JOS, Wycherley, Coombes and Hodnett could be getting much more game time (tbf Wycherley has had a bit), but you've two largely ineffectual Saffa journeymen taking all of the game time!

Munster need a drastic change in how they handle young talent - for the sake of themselves as well as everyone else!

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:22 am
by camroc1
DOB wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
Carberry is as able to play 10 as he is 15. He needs it to be in the right structure, though. And with smart players around him who know how to work off him. And to actually put a run of games together where he stays fit.

And Munster need a lot more surgery than just adding Frawley to their current backline.
D'Arcy in this mornings IT dwells on this very topic.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4139877

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:22 am
by Lazy Couch potato
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
They’d be some sexy defending going on with those 3

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:23 am
by Willie Falloon
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:is that the same Billy Burns who is worse than all four Leinster outhalves and about 8th best in the whole of Ireland?
That would be him

Ulster fans are one-eyed though

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:27 am
by DOB
camroc1 wrote: D'Arcy in this mornings IT dwells on this very topic.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4139877
Paywall.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:27 am
by unseenwork
Matt Faddes sustained a shoulder injury in the game against Clermont, and will not be fit for this week’s game versus Bath.

Will Addison (calf) and Marty Moore (ankle) both sustained injuries in the Clermont match. Their fitness to play will be monitored throughout the week.

Squad updates in association with The Ulster Independent Clinic.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:29 am
by MunsterMan!!!!!
DOB wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
Carberry is as able to play 10 as he is 15. He needs it to be in the right structure, though. And with smart players around him who know how to work off him. And to actually put a run of games together where he stays fit.

And Munster need a lot more surgery than just adding Frawley to their current backline.

Backline isn't the problem. Tight 5 is and namely the second row.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:29 am
by Jumper
Jim Lahey wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:IT possible squad:

IRELAND (possible Six Nations squad) –
Hookers: Niall Scannell, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.
Props: Cian Healy, David Kilcoyne, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Marty Moore.
Locks: James Ryan, Iain Henderson, Devin Toner, Jean Kleyn, Ultan Dillane.
Backrows: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors.

Scrumhalves: Conor Murray, Luke McGrath, John Cooney.
Outhalves: Johnny Sexton (capt), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.
Centres: Bundee Aki, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Chris Farrell.
Outside backs: Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Will Addison.
Hard to argue with that, beyond Earls. He’s in shocking form. Balacoune would have been a much better choice.
You could throw ESP1TP into that category but he was never going to be dropped.
Earls was very good at the weekend.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:32 am
by Liathroidigloine
Willie Falloon wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:is that the same Billy Burns who is worse than all four Leinster outhalves and about 8th best in the whole of Ireland?
That would be him

Ulster fans are one-eyed though
I’d take Frawley over Burns.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:37 am
by camroc1
DOB wrote:
camroc1 wrote: D'Arcy in this mornings IT dwells on this very topic.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -1.4139877
Paywall.
Gordon D’Arcy: Van Graan needs a new plan to get Munster back on track
Subscriber only
Munster have had one foot in the past, but coming unstuck in Europe could spur them on
about 4 hours ago

Gordon D'Arcy

0
Munster head coach Johann van Graan: Does he have enough time, the support of his employers and a generation of early-twentysomethings who can reshape Munster in the 2020s? Photograph: Dan Sheridan/Inpho


Munster always seek to be judged on results in the Champions Cup. That supersedes multiple excuses that can be made for them in January 2020.

Two of the best players in the world are landing in Limerick this summer. That should solve the short-term problems as Damian de Allende is expected to carry them where Virimi Vakatawa is taking Racing 92. Or where Alivereti Raka is driving Clermont Auvergne.

Across the gainline into the great beyond.

De Allende and RG Snyman can level the playing field against French clubs, but it will not fix deeper-rooted issues inside the organisation.

It is not all doom and gloom for Munster. Sure, there’s plenty of gloom after what happened in Paris last Sunday, but doomsday is a long way off for Johann van Graan and his new coaching ticket. The incoming Springboks will be available to play almost every week next season with the overriding aim of bringing 10 trophy-less seasons to an end.

The young South African coach is contracted until 2022 and while that is enough time to calmly go about addressing mounting problems in the camp, longer-term problems could reappear when de Allende and Synman move on.

Exiting Europe in the pool stages – even considering the opposition – must lead to a period of deep reflection. Reaching the quarter-finals, on the back of one typically brave performance, would have allowed them to paper over ever-widening gaps in the squad.

Only an unlikely string of results this weekend can save Munster. Otherwise, they will be out of Europe. I believe they can turn this crushing disappointment and loss of badly needed revenue into a positive. It also offers them time to assess how much teenage talent is coming through the ranks. Not the known quantities age 16 and 17, but players Munster will be contracting in eight to 10 years.


The immediate situation is nowhere near as concerning as what Leinster faced in the wake of the 2015 World Cup when they lost five straight pool games. During that period Leo Cullen made two decisions: firstly, he carefully began to expose the generation that captured a European title in 2018; and secondly, he recruited Stuart Lancaster to help him do this.

Bubbling
Cullen knew what was bubbling beneath the surface. We hear about Jack O’Sullivan, but the talent coming from Munster schools is not comparable to what St Michael’s College are producing on their own.

Also, can van Graan afford to dig that deep? It may not be in his remit, and anyway, does he really want to live in Limerick for five more years?

In Graham Rowntree he has a veteran of two Lions tours overseeing the forwards, and in Stephen Larkham one of the game’s greatest-ever outhalves-turned-attack coach.

Next it becomes about mixing their young talent with the established internationals. The worry is a hierarchical selection policy exists in the squad. That can become a vicious circle as young players start feeling they are not good enough as they are not given the necessary exposure to get comfortable at the highest level.

Internally, I presume, attempts are being made to alter this, but external comparisons with Munster of old and modern Leinster are being constantly thrown in their face. It’s almost unfair to keep doing this; all the while Cullen speaks about informing players they will get opportunities in certain windows, when they can change his mind about selection for European games.


The O’Connell-O’Gara era cannot be replicated, nor should they want to replicate it
Max Deegan springs to mind.


The All Blacks do not have any untouchables. They proved as much by switching a two-time world player of the year from outhalf to fullback. Moving Beauden Barrett was an enormous risk, but their culture compelled him to embrace the decision. They have benched Sonny Bill Williams and Aaron Smith at key moments.

Leinster under Cullen adopt similar innovative methods.


Munster are miles off this mindset.

In Ireland we have become obsessed with players being “dropped” when they are not named in the starting team. It is not so black-and-white anymore, but it gets painted as such. The sporting epitaph of Conor Murray or Johnny Sexton will be penned if either man does not make the starting XV to face Scotland. In fact, such a tough call could prove the best decision for the two veterans, for Ross Byrne and John Cooney, and for Ireland.

Hard look
Munster need to take a hard look at themselves because while their culture remains the same, their identity is different now. It’s very hard to move forward with one foot in the past. The O’Connell-O’Gara era cannot be replicated, nor should they want to replicate it. Let supporters reminisce about Peter Stringer’s try against Biarritz or the miracle match against Gloucester.

The current group must be allowed to define themselves. The values of the two-time Heineken Cup champions were honed in the All-Ireland League (AIL). Under the current system, it is increasingly difficult to unearth another John Hayes or Alan Quinlan from non-traditional rugby patches.

Leinster shouldn’t be the only province springboarding Sean O’Brien and Tadhg Furlong from youth/club rugby out into the world.

Munster would benefit the most from long-term IRFU investment in coaching at all levels of the club game in Ireland. Remember the Munster brand, as it became known, was born out of Shannon RFC’s rivalries with Garryowen, Cork Con, Young Munster and taking the train to Dublin to beat the tar out of whoever was waiting on a winter Saturday afternoon.


Those days have passed into memory as the link that made them so valuable to the first iteration of Munster in the professional era is almost severed.

I’ll beat this drum until the club game becomes central to Irish rugby’s strategy of ending our place as also-rans on the global stage. With a little foresight the AIL and underage club structures can complement the provincial academies more than they currently do.

There are immediate reasons for Munster’s season unravelling. Joey Carbery’s injury is the obvious one
I come from the Leinster schools system: Clongowes Wood teenage talent going into Leinster and on to my adventures with Ireland and the Lions. I even got a children’s book out of it with Ross O’Carroll-Kelly as co-author. This production line is booming at present but it has reached capacity and cannot be expected to meet increasing demands of provincial squads.

The club system helped Irish rugby get to where it is today. It was instrumental in Munster’s rise to greatness during the first decade of the 21st century.

There are immediate reasons for Munster’s season unravelling. Joey Carbery’s injury is the obvious one but could he have conjured enough magic to save them on Sunday at La Défense Arena?

Possibly, we’ll never know.

Key figure
The IRFU decision to deny Alby Mathewson another contract extension damaged van Graan’s plans, but giving Craig Casey – a key figure in the Ireland under-20s Grand Slam last year – only two minutes against Racing 92 was hardly a ringing endorsement for a young player who will only gain confidence from being trusted in big matches.

Besides Carbery, resting the other 11 players returning from the World Cup over Christmas denied van Graan any continuity in selection. Glaring deficiencies in the squad were laid bare, most excruciatingly of all by Leinster in Thomond Park.


They are not in dire straits but the organisation has been shook.

Racing 92 never got out of second gear on Sunday. And Munster never had to deal with the Donnacha Ryan or Simon Zebo effect.

They kept coming around the corner into a monstrous defence no longer made from a mercenary core. Sacking Fijian lock Leone Nakarawa for returning late from Japan told us that.

Munster were never going to win the battle on those terms, yet they stayed in the fight until Teddy Thomas’s spectacular touchdown on 72 minutes.

We can presume that the coach does not trust his sub hooker or three (homegrown) backline replacements. They all arrived on 78 minutes, when the contest was decided. Arno Botha only relieved Jean Kleyn on 70 minutes. Even the reserve props – Jeremy Loughman and John Ryan – entered the game on 65 minutes.


Striking this balance is van Graan’s most pressing challenge. Not the Champions Cup. Not winning the Pro 14
Now, it must be noted, neither prop made anywhere near the impact of Teddy Baubigny and Hassane Kolingar who appeared in the usual frontrow “finisher” slot of 50-odd minutes.

That’s clear evidence of a group lacking the depth to be Champions Cup contenders. Or a coach lacking belief in local players.

With the scoreboard nailbitingly close, van Graan trusted established frontliners to keep going even when Racing rolled their heavy artillery off the bench. The external message, as I see it, is van Graan only sees 19, 20 players capable of competing in big European games. This cannot be good for morale.

I don’t envy him. Maybe he feels that he cannot blood young guys when the Ireland players are available. Take 22-year-old Fineen Wycherley. By all accounts this six-foot-four lock/flanker is the real deal, but is he the next Jack O’Donoghue, in that we’ll have to wait three years before he fully matures because Snyman and Kleyn will play the majority of games next season?


Formula licked
Leinster have this formula licked. Jordan Larmour has been learning his trade in the backfield alongside Isa Nacewa and Rob Kearney, while I expect to see Ryan Baird locking down with Scott Fardy during the Six Nations.

That’s how you develop players. If Deegan (23) and Caelan Doris (21) surpass O’Donoghue or even Peter O’Mahony in the Irish backrow pecking order this year, they can thank Rhys Ruddock and Josh van der Flier for paving the road.

Striking this balance is van Graan’s most pressing challenge. Not the Champions Cup. Not even winning the Pro 14 – which could be a by-product of getting combinations right, as a few months of grace can now be afforded the Munster head coach.

Getting knocked out of Europe, and the instant humiliation that follows, can severely damage morale or, as Leo Cullen proved four years ago, it becomes the catalyst for moulding a new identity.

Munster, as a whole, are lacking confidence. Van Graan has been in a worse situation before with the Springboks, but he wasn’t around to witness the Rassie Erasmus remedy. He is still only 39 – and must be sick of reading his age – but he should lean on an experienced old head like Rowntree to sail the ship out of choppy waters. That’s why the former Leicester prop came aboard, right?

Van Graan is at a crossroads. Does he have enough time, the support of his employers and a generation of early-twentysomethings who can reshape Munster in the 2020s?

In the meantime, Leinster have disappeared beyond the horizon, Dan McFarland is operating off a five-year plan in Ulster and in Connacht Andy Friend is openly recruiting Leinster players who seek more game time.

Munster need a medium- to long-term strategy that must be understood internally so it can be seen externally.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:42 am
by Mullet 2
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
That’s good backtracking there Mullet

I didnt think the “Messiah” would have been limited to the position he plays in
Even Jesus got nailed down to one spot in the end

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:42 am
by Mullet 2
DOB wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
Carberry is as able to play 10 as he is 15. He needs it to be in the right structure, though. And with smart players around him who know how to work off him. And to actually put a run of games together where he stays fit.

And Munster need a lot more surgery than just adding Frawley to their current backline.

Nah

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:43 am
by Mullet 2
Lazy Couch potato wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
They’d be some sexy defending going on with those 3
WTF are you talking about? Frawley hits like a train

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:04 pm
by Ulsters Red Hand
Liathroidigloine wrote:
Willie Falloon wrote:
Ulsters Red Hand wrote:is that the same Billy Burns who is worse than all four Leinster outhalves and about 8th best in the whole of Ireland?
That would be him

Ulster fans are one-eyed though
I’d take Frawley over Burns.
Andy Farrell wouldn’t

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:10 pm
by Porterbelly1
Carty, the odd mistake aside, looked a lot more like the Carty of last season which is encouraging.

The block down kick was poor but would partly put the blame on Kerins for that too.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:15 pm
by Lazy Couch potato
PornDog wrote:Munster do not need another 10!!!!

Assuming Bleedinhell is done they still have Joey and JJ.

Johnston already left for game time and came off the bench for Ulster against Clermont. Even with Munsters current injuries I doubt if he would have been on Munsters bench at the weekend if he had stayed. He may turn out to be shite, but ye never invested the game time in him to find out.

Blood Healy and Flannery FFS - they're similar ages to Frawley and H Byrne anyway.

And its a similar situation for a backrow going to Munster. JOS, Wycherley, Coombes and Hodnett could be getting much more game time (tbf Wycherley has had a bit), but you've two largely ineffectual Saffa journeymen taking all of the game time!

Munster need a drastic change in how they handle young talent - for the sake of themselves as well as everyone else!

Agree 100% on the ten. I’d rather back Healy and flannery tbf but if your bringing in guy you need to loan out those two was my only point

Wycherley is a 6 in my opinion
Coombes is a 6 or maybe a 4. He needs minutes on the field badly.
No idea what black hole hodnett has fallen into
Jos looks a player altho he is light
Hodnett might be a 7 of that group. At a push....we’re crying out for a 7. Tod is at the end of his career. Oliver won’t make it. Cloete (despite being contracted for another f**king 2 years isn’t at the level required.

With Botha out of contract in July there is a space at 8 even with that.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:16 pm
by Lazy Couch potato
Mullet 2 wrote:
Lazy Couch potato wrote:
Mullet 2 wrote:
camroc1 wrote:
Jumper wrote:We could well see Carberry move permanently into 15 to help him avoid the constant heavy collisions at 10.
This is the Joey Carbery who was told to move to Munster to get playing time at 10, and NOT at 15 ?

That'll really help Munster persuade other Leinster players to go play for them.
The IRFU and Munster are slow learners but still.

The guy is a 15. He attempts to do far too much with the ball imo for a 10.

Frawley at 10
JJ at 12
Joey at 15

And the cousin Fuckers might actually get out a group
They’d be some sexy defending going on with those 3
WTF are you talking about? Frawley hits like a train
Jj and Joey would part like the Red Sea

There’s a reason Joey isn’t considered at 15

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:20 pm
by Jumper
Lazy Couch potato wrote:
PornDog wrote:Munster do not need another 10!!!!

Assuming Bleedinhell is done they still have Joey and JJ.

Johnston already left for game time and came off the bench for Ulster against Clermont. Even with Munsters current injuries I doubt if he would have been on Munsters bench at the weekend if he had stayed. He may turn out to be shite, but ye never invested the game time in him to find out.

Blood Healy and Flannery FFS - they're similar ages to Frawley and H Byrne anyway.

And its a similar situation for a backrow going to Munster. JOS, Wycherley, Coombes and Hodnett could be getting much more game time (tbf Wycherley has had a bit), but you've two largely ineffectual Saffa journeymen taking all of the game time!

Munster need a drastic change in how they handle young talent - for the sake of themselves as well as everyone else!

Agree 100% on the ten. I’d rather back Healy and flannery tbf but if your bringing in guy you need to loan out those two was my only point

Wycherley is a 6 in my opinion
Coombes is a 6 or maybe a 4. He needs minutes on the field badly.
No idea what black hole hodnett has fallen into
Jos looks a player altho he is light
Hodnett might be a 7 of that group. At a push....we’re crying out for a 7. Tod is at the end of his career. Oliver won’t make it. Cloete (despite being contracted for another f**king 2 years isn’t at the level required.

With Botha out of contract in July there is a space at 8 even with that.
Hodnett has 6 months of academy rugby under his belt. How many academy players regularly play first team rugby within their first 6 months in the academy?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:23 pm
by boringperson12
How many tackles does a fullback on average make in a game these days?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:24 pm
by rialtoblue
Jumper wrote:
Lazy Couch potato wrote:
PornDog wrote:Munster do not need another 10!!!!

Assuming Bleedinhell is done they still have Joey and JJ.

Johnston already left for game time and came off the bench for Ulster against Clermont. Even with Munsters current injuries I doubt if he would have been on Munsters bench at the weekend if he had stayed. He may turn out to be shite, but ye never invested the game time in him to find out.

Blood Healy and Flannery FFS - they're similar ages to Frawley and H Byrne anyway.

And its a similar situation for a backrow going to Munster. JOS, Wycherley, Coombes and Hodnett could be getting much more game time (tbf Wycherley has had a bit), but you've two largely ineffectual Saffa journeymen taking all of the game time!

Munster need a drastic change in how they handle young talent - for the sake of themselves as well as everyone else!

Agree 100% on the ten. I’d rather back Healy and flannery tbf but if your bringing in guy you need to loan out those two was my only point

Wycherley is a 6 in my opinion
Coombes is a 6 or maybe a 4. He needs minutes on the field badly.
No idea what black hole hodnett has fallen into
Jos looks a player altho he is light
Hodnett might be a 7 of that group. At a push....we’re crying out for a 7. Tod is at the end of his career. Oliver won’t make it. Cloete (despite being contracted for another f**king 2 years isn’t at the level required.

With Botha out of contract in July there is a space at 8 even with that.
Hodnett has 6 months of academy rugby under his belt. How many academy players regularly play first team rugby within their first 6 months in the academy?
Not many, although Scott Penny springs to mind

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:26 pm
by nardol
boringperson12 wrote:How many tackles does a fullback on average make in a game these days?
Not many but its noticeable when they miss.

Kearney snr and Geordan Murphy were bothheavily criticised at points in their career because of it.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:33 pm
by hermie
irishrugbyua wrote:ROC saying leinster under pressure to lose a 7, 8 and a 10 this summer. Most likely to Munster.
FFS how does that make sense? Who exactly would go? We know Conan is not for moving. Why would Deegan or Doris go south to compete with Stander? Similarly Penny when Hodnett is there. With Snyman due to arrive the likes of Beirne and Wycherley will feature more in the backrow. But they have tonnes of loose forwards. 10 makes even less sense. They already pinched Carbery, what the hell is Bill Johnstone doing in Ulster if they're so short of 10s?

Maybe a 7 going to Connacht now that they're losing Fainga'a makes sense but the CFs need to start trusting some of the young, six-fingered talent they have coming through.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:33 pm
by Jumper
rialtoblue wrote:
Jumper wrote:Hodnett has 6 months of academy rugby under his belt. How many academy players regularly play first team rugby within their first 6 months in the academy?
Not many, although Scott Penny springs to mind
And Scott Penny came through St. Michaels. He would have had 4/5 years' training and development in what is essentially a professional rugby environment by the time he entered the Leinster academy.

Hodnett had a year in the Munster sub-academy.

It's apples and oranges.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:36 pm
by hermie
rialtoblue wrote:
Jumper wrote:
Lazy Couch potato wrote:
PornDog wrote:Munster do not need another 10!!!!

Assuming Bleedinhell is done they still have Joey and JJ.

Johnston already left for game time and came off the bench for Ulster against Clermont. Even with Munsters current injuries I doubt if he would have been on Munsters bench at the weekend if he had stayed. He may turn out to be shite, but ye never invested the game time in him to find out.

Blood Healy and Flannery FFS - they're similar ages to Frawley and H Byrne anyway.

And its a similar situation for a backrow going to Munster. JOS, Wycherley, Coombes and Hodnett could be getting much more game time (tbf Wycherley has had a bit), but you've two largely ineffectual Saffa journeymen taking all of the game time!

Munster need a drastic change in how they handle young talent - for the sake of themselves as well as everyone else!

Agree 100% on the ten. I’d rather back Healy and flannery tbf but if your bringing in guy you need to loan out those two was my only point

Wycherley is a 6 in my opinion
Coombes is a 6 or maybe a 4. He needs minutes on the field badly.
No idea what black hole hodnett has fallen into
Jos looks a player altho he is light
Hodnett might be a 7 of that group. At a push....we’re crying out for a 7. Tod is at the end of his career. Oliver won’t make it. Cloete (despite being contracted for another f**king 2 years isn’t at the level required.

With Botha out of contract in July there is a space at 8 even with that.
Hodnett has 6 months of academy rugby under his belt. How many academy players regularly play first team rugby within their first 6 months in the academy?
Not many, although Scott Penny springs to mind
Deegan also

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:41 pm
by Fritz Lung
unseenwork wrote:
Matt Faddes sustained a shoulder injury in the game against Clermont, and will not be fit for this week’s game versus Bath.

Will Addison (calf) and Marty Moore (ankle) both sustained injuries in the Clermont match. Their fitness to play will be monitored throughout the week.

Squad updates in association with The Ulster Independent Clinic.

He's not much of a loss anyway.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:45 pm
by binge90
Jumper wrote:
rialtoblue wrote:
Jumper wrote:Hodnett has 6 months of academy rugby under his belt. How many academy players regularly play first team rugby within their first 6 months in the academy?
Not many, although Scott Penny springs to mind
And Scott Penny came through St. Michaels. He would have had 4/5 years' training and development in what is essentially a professional rugby environment by the time he entered the Leinster academy.

Hodnett had a year in the Munster sub-academy.

It's apples and oranges.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah man they have those U13s tracking their GPS data.

This narrative from Munster recently is brilliant.