Planet Rugby Forum

So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

Ulster could do with picking up someone like Jackson Wray.
Tough kunt that will never make it at international level but would be decent for us.
They have that other young English flanker thats rapid, Ben something or other, but he probably has international ambitions.

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:Quims chucking the game against Clermont.

Ulster profligacy when on top against them twice is going to cost a home QF, otherwise we'd be going in level on points (assuming we had secured the TBP at home and not let them get back into it in the second half and we got a LBP at theirs).

We need to take more the chances we create. Should have punished Clermont when down to 14 last week.

Listened to the Ulster Rugby Round Up Podcast this week and they were trying to downplay the decisions not to take the points, saying things like Rory Best changed the mentality of the side after being in the team that beat NZ in Chicago and knowing you need to outscore top teams on tries, not pens.
Works if you can rely on your lineout. But its complete bollocks in Ulster’s case.
When your lineout has repeatedly been shite over the previous 3 weeks, you take the points.
If our scrum had been solid I would have preferred that option as they would be down a back and simple hands should do it.

Ah christ listening now and they were asked about the Ulster scrumhalf situation if Cooney's away with Ireland and they had no answer whatsoever really.

unseenwork wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:Quims chucking the game against Clermont.

Ulster profligacy when on top against them twice is going to cost a home QF, otherwise we'd be going in level on points (assuming we had secured the TBP at home and not let them get back into it in the second half and we got a LBP at theirs).

We need to take more the chances we create. Should have punished Clermont when down to 14 last week.

Listened to the Ulster Rugby Round Up Podcast this week and they were trying to downplay the decisions not to take the points, saying things like Rory Best changed the mentality of the side after being in the team that beat NZ in Chicago and knowing you need to outscore top teams on tries, not pens.
Works if you can rely on your lineout. But its complete bollocks in Ulster’s case.
When your lineout has repeatedly been shite over the previous 3 weeks, you take the points.
If our scrum had been solid I would have preferred that option as they would be down a back and simple hands should do it.

Ah christ listening now and they were asked about the Ulster scrumhalf situation if Cooney's away with Ireland and they had no answer whatsoever really.

I listen to it out of habit but its shite.
Yer man Adam repeats every point he makes at least 3 times and is usually some generic bollocks as opposed to any deep, knowledgeable insights.

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

Jim Lahey wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:Quims chucking the game against Clermont.

Ulster profligacy when on top against them twice is going to cost a home QF, otherwise we'd be going in level on points (assuming we had secured the TBP at home and not let them get back into it in the second half and we got a LBP at theirs).

We need to take more the chances we create. Should have punished Clermont when down to 14 last week.

Listened to the Ulster Rugby Round Up Podcast this week and they were trying to downplay the decisions not to take the points, saying things like Rory Best changed the mentality of the side after being in the team that beat NZ in Chicago and knowing you need to outscore top teams on tries, not pens.
Works if you can rely on your lineout. But its complete bollocks in Ulster’s case.
When your lineout has repeatedly been shite over the previous 3 weeks, you take the points.
If our scrum had been solid I would have preferred that option as they would be down a back and simple hands should do it.

Ah christ listening now and they were asked about the Ulster scrumhalf situation if Cooney's away with Ireland and they had no answer whatsoever really.

I listen to it out of habit but its shite.
Yer man Adam repeats every point he makes at least 3 times and is usually some generic bollocks as opposed to any deep, knowledgeable insights.

Aye it's not very good and they're cosy enough with the squad that they'll avoid any significant criticism. I listen in hope that they'll have some little bit of interesting AIL or Schools coverage which has really dried up of late, which is really quite remarkable considering how do or die it is for Hinch right now and the importance of having an Ulster team in 1A.

camroc1 wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

I sure hope so, that lad Itoje or Billy V would be nice additions

camroc1 wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

Gallagher is already on his way is he not?

sewa wrote:

camroc1 wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

I sure hope so, that lad Itoje or Billy V would be nice additions

Don’t think Itoje’s wide carrying game is as good as Kleyn’s so he’d have to settle for a bench spot

Jim Lahey wrote:

sewa wrote:

camroc1 wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

I sure hope so, that lad Itoje or Billy V would be nice additions

Don’t think Itoje’s wide carrying game is as good as Kleyn’s so he’d have to settle for a bench spot

And I'm not sure Sarries have any elite support forwards.

Jim Lahey wrote:
Don’t think Itoje’s wide carrying game is as good as Kleyn’s so he’d have to settle for a bench spot

Himself and Snyman could be a decent partnership, good for Whycherly to learn from also

Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

The answer to all of these is money.

grimoald wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

The answer to all of these is money.

Michaels are essentially a rugby academy with a school attached - most schools rightly do not want to go down that route

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Overanalysed both the problem, and the solution.

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Yeah. Like what kind of mental leaps do you have to make to arrive at a point where you’re dropping Toner for Kleyn. Hard to believe given Joe’s record.

Duff Paddy wrote:

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Yeah. Like what kind of mental leaps do you have to make to arrive at a point where you’re dropping Toner for Kleyn. Hard to believe given Joe’s record.

It was really baffling.
Especially in the context of safety blanket choices like POM.

A shame.

camroc1 wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:So which Sarries players would the provinces realistically approach if they did go down? I don't think there's many as the big names are all going to still be involved internationally.

No doubt Munster have already been in touch.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Mr. Very Popular wrote:

Jumper wrote:Munster:
Mike Haley;
Andrew Conway, Chris Farrell, Rory Scannell, Calvin Nash;
JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray:

Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer;
Fineen Wycherley, Billy Holland;
Peter O'Mahony (c), Jack O'Donoghue, CJ Stander:

Replacements:
Kevin O'Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, John Ryan, Arno Botha, Jack O'Sullivan, Craig Casey, Ben Healy, Dan Goggin.

Exciting Munster bench. Munster are very very light at lock; none on the bench this week again and both starters are probably backrowers.

11 of our very own starting.

Heady stuff.

And not 1 NIQ starting, pity all the others couldn't manage that, looking at you Leinster

Ospreys in the hunt so

Duff Paddy wrote:

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Yeah. Like what kind of mental leaps do you have to make to arrive at a point where you’re dropping Toner for Kleyn. Hard to believe given Joe’s record.

He picked our back up scrum half based on defence rather than you know, passing the ball.

Jim Lahey wrote:Yer man Adam repeats every point he makes at least 3 times and is usually some generic bollocks as opposed to any deep, knowledgeable insights.

What do you expect from the Bel Tel? They all seem a bit strange

unseenwork wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: An ex Instonian has no place to criticise another school for tapping up players

Well yes, yes she does.

Admittedly I think one of the first ones we tapped up was in my year, I think a couple of the golden squad were tapped up. Campbell are a different level though and have been for a long while.

Sorry forgot the pronoun.

Ah thanks Earl, no worries.

Unless i'm missing something here did UW not go to Inst?

unseenwork wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: An ex Instonian has no place to criticise another school for tapping up players

Well yes, yes she does.

Admittedly I think one of the first ones we tapped up was in my year, I think a couple of the golden squad were tapped up. Campbell are a different level though and have been for a long while.

Sorry forgot the pronoun.

Ah thanks Earl, no worries.

Unless i'm missing something here did UW not go to Inst?

UW did, and you clearly missed something!

Duff Paddy wrote:

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Yeah. Like what kind of mental leaps do you have to make to arrive at a point where you’re dropping Toner for Kleyn. Hard to believe given Joe’s record.

Toner's fitness and form was an issue, tbf, but not to the extent that you leave that experience behind in favour of someone who's never really performed at a very high level.

Leinster A finally have all the O'Bs playing together.

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

Doubtful tbh.

The advantage of the system in a school is that you have total access to the players.

Michaels has a gym, all-weather pitches, etc. That costs.

Pupils can come in early and use the gym, they can train at lunch (skills, etc), train after school, then there's after-school study to keep them focused and busy.

A kid in 6th year is probably in school from 8 am to 10 pm or so if he's on the Senior Panel. Fúck all time for anything but rugby.

CM11 wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:

EverReady wrote:

Duff Paddy wrote:Well it looks like the Tone Ranger was royally shafted by Joe. The citing excuse never did seem particularly believable but dropping him to improve the tight side scrum turned out to be a bad joke in the end. You’d really have to feel for the bloke. Yes he’s winding down but for a World Cup you should only replace him if the other option will be an improvement. Just shows the degree to which Joe completely lost the plot at the World Cup.

It all went to shit so suddenly in the New Year he just panicked

Yeah. Like what kind of mental leaps do you have to make to arrive at a point where you’re dropping Toner for Kleyn. Hard to believe given Joe’s record.

Toner's fitness and form was an issue, tbf, but not to the extent that you leave that experience behind in favour of someone who's never really performed at a very high level.

I suspected it might have something to do with the fact that Kleyn was hired 3 years earlier specifically for the WC and unless he was absolutely useless he was going to get picked for the squad at somebody's expense.

I worry that there's pressure to pick project players to entice others to come. Tom O'Toole is an odd selection for the squad but it looks good if you're trying to persuade young players in other countries to come over.

Nolanator wrote:UW did, and you clearly missed something!

That's okay, so is UW




sorry!

Been listening to a lot of podcasts etc around the squad and it really is depressing stuff. They'll all start out saying it's an exciting squad but going through and picking the team they all just fall on basically going for the RWC team. Need that experience etc. It's not a risk to change up your team when the team has been shite for 12 months. The risk is not changing the team.

anonymous_joe wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

Doubtful tbh.

The advantage of the system in a school is that you have total access to the players.

Michaels has a gym, all-weather pitches, etc. That costs.

Pupils can come in early and use the gym, they can train at lunch (skills, etc), train after school, then there's after-school study to keep them focused and busy.

A kid in 6th year is probably in school from 8 am to 10 pm or so if he's on the Senior Panel. Fúck all time for anything but rugby.

A lot of other schools have those facilities too though. What are Michaels doing differently? Is it that they're developing the skills rather than focussing on the SCT as the be all and end all?

I hope not every school starts copying one blueprint. What works at Micheals won't work in other places. There are schools that haven't been very successful in recent years but still produced high quality professional rugby players.

You'd hope too that rugby coaching doesn't become too formulaic. We don't want to end up with a production line of drones.

Floppykid wrote:Leinster A finally have all the O'Bs playing together.

every leinster A match seems to be away from home?

I think theres been 1 in donnybrook since september?

Leinsterman wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

Doubtful tbh.

The advantage of the system in a school is that you have total access to the players.

Michaels has a gym, all-weather pitches, etc. That costs.

Pupils can come in early and use the gym, they can train at lunch (skills, etc), train after school, then there's after-school study to keep them focused and busy.

A kid in 6th year is probably in school from 8 am to 10 pm or so if he's on the Senior Panel. Fúck all time for anything but rugby.

A lot of other schools have those facilities too though. What are Michaels doing differently? Is it that they're developing the skills rather than focussing on the SCT as the be all and end all?

The parents and kids accept that rugby (and only rugby, not any other sport) will take up a lot of the kids time in school.

Michaels rise to the top is relatively recent, and fair fucks to them in building such a rugby ethos in an age when many schools dilute their resources in trying to play as many sports as possible.

Zico wrote:I hope not every school starts copying one blueprint. What works at Micheals won't work in other places. There are schools that haven't been very successful in recent years but still produced high quality professional rugby players.

You'd hope too that rugby coaching doesn't become too formulaic. We don't want to end up with a production line of drones.

Agree completely but Michaels seem to be churning out players with very high levels of actual rugby skills.

danthefan wrote:Been listening to a lot of podcasts etc around the squad and it really is depressing stuff. They'll all start out saying it's an exciting squad but going through and picking the team they all just fall on basically going for the RWC team. Need that experience etc. It's not a risk to change up your team when the team has been shite for 12 months. The risk is not changing the team.

Some pundits/analysts who I'd hope for better from are in this territory alright.

camroc1 wrote:

Leinsterman wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:

unseenwork wrote:

Liathroidigloine wrote:There's lots of commentary about Leinster benefitting from the Michaels conveyor. Couple of questions:

1. why don't other Leinster schools copy what they do?
2. why don't the other provinces copy what they do?

3. Is there a way of translating what they're doing to clubs and escaping dependence on elite schools?

Doubtful tbh.

The advantage of the system in a school is that you have total access to the players.

Michaels has a gym, all-weather pitches, etc. That costs.

Pupils can come in early and use the gym, they can train at lunch (skills, etc), train after school, then there's after-school study to keep them focused and busy.

A kid in 6th year is probably in school from 8 am to 10 pm or so if he's on the Senior Panel. Fúck all time for anything but rugby.

A lot of other schools have those facilities too though. What are Michaels doing differently? Is it that they're developing the skills rather than focussing on the SCT as the be all and end all?

The parents and kids accept that rugby (and only rugby, not any other sport) will take up a lot of the kids time in school.

Michaels rise to the top is relatively recent, and fair fucks to them in building such a rugby ethos in an age when many schools dilute their resources in trying to play as many sports as possible.

not 100% accurate I reckon cam .... although a fair dollop of truth to it. Michaels have plenty of kids/teams who are playing to a high level in tennis, basketball, athletics etc ....

I think the school is just really good at driving participation in sport (predominantly rugby admittedly). For example, I believe they are fielding 7 cup teams across the senior, junior and 1st year panels ..... which is more than Rock, a school twice their size.

The two astros make a huge difference, but various teams still have to train in wanderers, monkstown rfc etc, given the sheer number of kids that are active

theres also a slight difference to Rock for example that could be an important factor, and its this ....... given their relatively smaller numbers, Michaels typically give talented 2nd and 4th year/TY cohorts, opportunities to play JCT and SCT at a relatively young age.

for example, half the current J's A squad is comprised of 2nd years, while theres a fair smattering of TY's in the S's firsts too.

any highly talented kid coming out of Michaels after the leaving cert, will likely have played 5 years of JCT/SCT cup rugby ..... and I'm not sure thats the case in the bigger schools like Belvo or Rock?

Its just a theory, but I reckon it goes some way to explaining the ability of Penny, Baird etc to find the transition into Leinster somewhat more straightforward than other academy players

Leinsterman wrote:

Zico wrote:I hope not every school starts copying one blueprint. What works at Micheals won't work in other places. There are schools that haven't been very successful in recent years but still produced high quality professional rugby players.

You'd hope too that rugby coaching doesn't become too formulaic. We don't want to end up with a production line of drones.

Agree completely but Michaels seem to be churning out players with very high levels of actual rugby skills.

Cohesive coaching vision across multiple years.

any highly talented kid coming out of Michaels after the leaving cert, will likely have played 5 years of JCT/SCT cup rugby ..... and I'm not sure thats the case in the bigger schools like Belvo or Rock?

I can think of 4 or 5 lads in my era who played 5 years of cup rugby at Rock. Most of them would have also played in the Holy Ghost u13s cup, too (which I presume would also apply to the Michaels lads), so effectively 6 years or even in a couple of cases 7, of spending their spring playing knockout rugby.

Most of those lads had their careers cut short by injury; some made it to a high level before that, but the ones that ended up with long careers and became household names generally had a year or 2 of “fun” rugby in school.

I would not recommend 5 years of Leinster schools cup rugby as a preparation for a pro career.

DOB wrote:

any highly talented kid coming out of Michaels after the leaving cert, will likely have played 5 years of JCT/SCT cup rugby ..... and I'm not sure thats the case in the bigger schools like Belvo or Rock?

I can think of 4 or 5 lads in my era who played 5 years of cup rugby at Rock. Most of them would have also played in the Holy Ghost u13s cup, too (which I presume would also apply to the Michaels lads), so effectively 6 years or even in a couple of cases 7, of spending their spring playing knockout rugby.

Most of those lads had their careers cut short by injury; some made it to a high level before that, but the ones that ended up with long careers and became household names generally had a year or 2 of “fun” rugby in school.

I would not recommend 5 years of Leinster schools cup rugby as a preparation for a pro career.

Be that as it may (and I’m not advocating one way or the other), I reckon you’ll find that Deegan, Baird, Penny, McGrath, Ryan, Moloney, Leavy, Kelleher, both Byrnes etc, have all played cup rugby in every year they spent in Michaels

It could be a factor in their quick progression at Leinster .... whether it’s right for them in the long run or not, is a different conversation