Planet Rugby Forum

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

I'm not saying I agree but Flannery was by a very large distance a better thrower than woody

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

I'm not saying I agree but Flannery was by a very large distance a better thrower than woody

And worse at every other aspect of play. Not least the scrum.


Flanneru was a really good player mind, and an outrageously good thrower

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

I'm not saying I agree but Flannery was by a very large distance a better thrower than woody

Early days of Woody, maybe. By the 2000s, Wood's throwing was, at its very worst, never a problem.

You'd need to be talking about a massive discrepancy in throwing to justify Fla over Wood, and it's just not there.

Not saying I agree with the call, but Flannery was a country mile better than woody at throwing, I can't believe it is even up for debate. Woody was serviceable and flannery was world class at it that's a big difference

I don't know who Gav Casey is, but he is right.

The difficult bit is fitting Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien and Wallace in the back row, and whether you think Horgan or Hickie play on the opposite wing to Bowe.

Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:Not saying I agree with the call, but Flannery was a country mile better than woody at throwing, I can't believe it is even up for debate. Woody was serviceable and flannery was world class at it that's a big difference

Fla might well have been better at throwing than Wood, but.

There's only so much better you can be than "hits his man every time." For the 5 years before Flannery got into the Ireland team, the lineout, with Wood and then Shane Byrne throwing, was as good as any in the world. Ireland had statistically the best lineout at the 2003 RWC. The lineout was a major cornerstone of Irish wins over everyone except NZ in those years.

If Flannery made any improvement on that, it was marginal, and while he was a decent player in other areas, he was significantly below Wood's level in every other aspect of the game. He was a step up when he came into the Ireland team, because he was replacing a 34 year old Byrne.

Nothing wrong with Woody's throws in this video, for example.

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Would SOB be the best impact player off the bench? Might be the factor that would swing the decision.

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

No earthly argument for not picking Rory Best.

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

SOB has to be in there also.

Fritz Lung wrote:

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

No earthly argument for not picking Rory Best.

Too many broken windows.

Flametop wrote:

Fritz Lung wrote:

DOB wrote:There is no earthly argument for Fla over Wood.

No earthly argument for not picking Rory Best.

Too many broken windows.

I'm assuming you are talking about his lineout throwing...

DOB wrote:

MunsterMan!!!!! wrote:Not saying I agree with the call, but Flannery was a country mile better than woody at throwing, I can't believe it is even up for debate. Woody was serviceable and flannery was world class at it that's a big difference

Fla might well have been better at throwing than Wood, but.

There's only so much better you can be than "hits his man every time." For the 5 years before Flannery got into the Ireland team, the lineout, with Wood and then Shane Byrne throwing, was as good as any in the world. Ireland had statistically the best lineout at the 2003 RWC. The lineout was a major cornerstone of Irish wins over everyone except NZ in those years.

If Flannery made any improvement on that, it was marginal, and while he was a decent player in other areas, he was significantly below Wood's level in every other aspect of the game. He was a step up when he came into the Ireland team, because he was replacing a 34 year old Byrne.

Nothing wrong with Woody's throws in this video, for example.

Fla was also well able to kick, when he had to, but not in the Woody drop goal league.

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

Fez had 35 caps.
Heaslip had a hell of a lot more.
Wallace had double that.
SOB had more.

Listen I loved Fez but there is certainly an argument that he wasn’t around enough to be in the top BR of the pro era.

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

Fez had 35 caps.
Heaslip had a hell of a lot more.
Wallace had double that.
SOB had more.

Listen I loved Fez but there is certainly an argument that he wasn’t around enough to be in the top BR of the pro era.

For me it’s Fez, SOB, Heaslip. Agree with Earl that Wally was best at 7 - but SOB was world class playing there

Flametop wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

SOB has to be in there also.

Heaslip is in the POC/BOD category of players. The others aren't.

I can't see how you can have someone ahead of Heaslip at 8. The other 3 are flankers, they're fighting it out for the other 2 spots.

Personally I'd pick POM over Ferris.

danthefan wrote:I can't see how you can have someone ahead of Heaslip at 8. The other 3 are flankers, they're fighting it out for the other 2 spots.

Personally I'd pick POM over Ferris.

Rancid

You would need to make that even more rancid with something like “Ferris had a game to the level POM had v New Zealand”

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

Fez had 35 caps.
Heaslip had a hell of a lot more.
Wallace had double that.
SOB had more.

Listen I loved Fez but there is certainly an argument that he wasn’t around enough to be in the top BR of the pro era.

In a best potential team Ferris starts, no matter what.

In a putative best squad for a season, grand, he's injury prone, but one-off he was our best professional blindside.

RFU have also cancelled all levels below Premiership for the season a la the IRFU but they have said they are hopeful of finishing the Premiership in some form

anonymous_joe wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

earl the beaver wrote:

Jim Lahey wrote:

Flametop wrote:Ferris, O Brien, Wallace would have been tasty.

Hickie all day.

One of those would need to drop out for Heaslip imo.
Toss up between Wally and Fez. Difficult decision.

Not having that.

Ferris is without doubt the best 6 we've had in the pro era.

SOB and Wally's best form has been at 7 but both could play 8.

It's Fez plus 2 from Wally/SOB/Heaslip.

Fez had 35 caps.
Heaslip had a hell of a lot more.
Wallace had double that.
SOB had more.

Listen I loved Fez but there is certainly an argument that he wasn’t around enough to be in the top BR of the pro era.

In a best potential team Ferris starts, no matter what.

In a putative best squad for a season, grand, he's injury prone, but one-off he was our best professional blindside.

I agree entirely, but my view of an all time great would be someone who delivers quality performances consistently over a long period of time.
I’d probably still pick Fez personally but I don’t think its a foregone conclusion under my definition.
If its just outright ability then he’s a shoe-in.

anonymous_joe wrote:In a best potential team Ferris starts, no matter what.

In a putative best squad for a season, grand, he's injury prone, but one-off he was our best professional blindside.

Yep. The purpose of this exercise was best player in each position from 2000-2020. Not on potential or what they might have done, but what they actually did in that position.
Fez had some immense games and was key during the GS, but I don't think he was around for long enough.

6 is an interesting one. Who's in the conversation? POM, Fez, Easterbuy? Leamy was mostly an 8 for Ireland, SOB mastly 7, Best only there for a season.
& is between Wally and SOB. SOB for me. Ridiculous that Wally would miss out, but that's just an excellent player being beaten by a more excellent one.
8 is Heaslip every day ending with d-a-y. Honourable mention for Leamy and Axel, but there's absolutely no question.

Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

earl the beaver wrote:RFU have also cancelled all levels below Premiership for the season a la the IRFU but they have said they are hopeful of finishing the Premiership in some form

This makes this season even more bizarre. The championship is now over but I assume that the team who is top is going to go up - unlike the AIL which has removed promotion/relegation, due to Sarries going down?

Seems a bit unfair to promote a team based on half a season.

Ferris SOB Gleeson

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

Fez, Wally, Heaslip ticks all possible boxes.

Nolanator wrote:

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

Then there is absolutely zero argument against Heaslip. Very tough call between SOB and Wallace.

danthefan wrote:

Nolanator wrote:

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

Then there is absolutely zero argument against Heaslip. Very tough call between SOB and Wallace.

As I said, there is no way you leave Heaslip out of No 8 regardless of the criteria. Best backrow we have ever produced and would be in the Holy Trinity along with POC and BOD for me. BOD is obviously God, POC the son and Heaslip the Holy Ghost.

Nolanator wrote:

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

I'm a rule breaker.

Plus if it is who has done the best in that position, Rory Best captained Ireland to two victorys over the All Blacks from hooker... If we are saying who was the best player in that position... Keith Wood is head and shoulders the best hooker to have player for Ireland.

fudge I am bored!

danthefan wrote:

Nolanator wrote:

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

Then there is absolutely zero argument against Heaslip. Very tough call between SOB and Wallace.

SOB on the bench to cover any of the 3.

Liathroidigloine wrote:

danthefan wrote:

Nolanator wrote:

boringperson12 wrote:Personally would go Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip - think it is a nice balance of power, skill, and workrate... But not a match for a backrow of Matthews, Hamilton, and Robinson!

The exercise wasn't to pick the best backrow out of available players if you were the coach, it was who's done the best in that position in the last 20 years.

Then there is absolutely zero argument against Heaslip. Very tough call between SOB and Wallace.

As I said, there is no way you leave Heaslip out of No 8 regardless of the criteria. Best backrow we have ever produced and would be in the Holy Trinity along with POC and BOD for me. BOD is obviously God, POC the son and Heaslip the Holy Ghost.

POM for the holy ghost.
Sure you never see him.

I would say that the best performance by an individual back row this century was SOB in the game that we used to say never happened. He was more durable than Ferris and had a higher ceiling than Wallace so he has to be in there, for me.

SOB was the best player of the lot, so he has to be in there and you fit two others around him.

Floppykid wrote:SOB was the best player of the lot, so he has to be in there and you fit two others around him.

Was he though? It's not clear cut.

Nolanator wrote:

anonymous_joe wrote:In a best potential team Ferris starts, no matter what.

In a putative best squad for a season, grand, he's injury prone, but one-off he was our best professional blindside.

Yep. The purpose of this exercise was best player in each position from 2000-2020. Not on potential or what they might have done, but what they actually did in that position.
Fez had some immense games and was key during the GS, but I don't think he was around for long enough.

6 is an interesting one. Who's in the conversation? POM, Fez, Easterbuy? Leamy was mostly an 8 for Ireland, SOB mastly 7, Best only there for a season.
& is between Wally and SOB. SOB for me. Ridiculous that Wally would miss out, but that's just an excellent player being beaten by a more excellent one.
8 is Heaslip every day ending with d-a-y. Honourable mention for Leamy and Axel, but there's absolutely no question.

For a long-term influence you clearly want Wallace and Heaslip in the team, they were absolute machines.

Leamy was broken by injuries early.

SOB had years of injury problems.

Fez, as above, but worse.

Foley, perhaps?

Slightly more caps than O'Brien. Not sure about him as a 6 over 8 though?

Foley isn't in the conversation tbf.