Planet Rugby Forum

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?

He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.

I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.

Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?

I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?

My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.

1st May try aside, we did well in the air against England and the last 3 games before that England managed to win that aspect of the game.

I think we have to box clever. Understand we dont have the game to run over or run around them.

We need to kick against them and keep them in their half......and kick the penalties when they come.

We need to play intelligently, know our limits and box clever. Apologies for the clichés

Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?

See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.

Rumham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.

He's a good player, but nobody but his biggest cheerleaders expected him to be a great international. He's very good for Leinster at club level, but he doesn't have the talent or temperment for the highest level.

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm

He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.

I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.

Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?

I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?

My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.

Maybe moving to 6 can simplify things for him, but I don't see him coming more to the fore against bigger packs yet.

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?

See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.

You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.

Rumham wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.

No.

Doris might not be a bruiser, but he's young and he's got a future.

POM is done, give him the captaincy in nothing games but he should be in the first choice 23.

Stander is a battler, but he's incredibly limited

We don't have athlete's like Curry/Underhill, when we had Ferris/Wallace/SOB they were genuine athletes who could mix it. Whether the likes of Coombes/Penny/McCann will be is a question, Coombes might but I don't think McCann/Penny are going to have that sort of elite power.

I don't know what the answer is for the backrow but Connors brought some urgency, until/unless Leavy shows some top quality form the backrow needs to be him, Doris and Stander but it's not at the levels of the backrows we became accustomed to in the 2000s and early 2010s.

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?

Smash it up, nothing fancy, no offloads, don't pass to wingers or wide channels, try to take England on physically, kick smartly. Go for the corner not the posts on penalties.

Nearly all of it ill conceiver or poorly executed, so share of blame to players and coach.

Not taking the points when we are so poor in the red zone and England's defence in their strenght is beyond retarded.

They pushed the edge and got away with it, at one stage near the end, just before Farrell's attempt I think, we had a ruck about a metre from the line, Vunipola was at the side, stuck his hand on the ball and actually knocked it on, got away with it and slowed us down. You can't buy that kind of niggle.

What we now know to be fact:

We’re a mediocre rugby team

We don’t have a tight 5 that can compete with the best teams

We have a poor set piece

Our backs offer no threat in attack and are very easy to defend against.

We are really badly coached

If it’s any consolation, if we need a new coach Stephen Kenny should be available soon and I have a sneaky suspicion he might be better for Ireland rugby than Farrell.

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm What we now know to be fact:

We’re a mediocre rugby team

We don’t have a tight 5 that can compete with the best teams

We have a poor set piece

Our backs offer no threat in attack and are very easy to defend against.

We are really badly coached

But apart from that.....

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

Rhys Ruddock says hello.

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?

See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.

You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.

He sat miles too deep and shuffled the ball along to a forward way behind the gainline and then when that didn't work we threw loopy passes wide. Aki and Farrell aren't exactly going to create something out of nothing but they didn't have much chance after we'd gone backwards 10 phases in a row before that. It was no surprise that we started to bypass Byrne when Murray came on and then when Burns did come on he try to play a bit flatter and ultimately that led to a try.

Byrne looked like creating a try as much as I did, and I was sitting on a sofa in Leeds.


I'm not saying Byrne is the problem with this side but he's not up to this level and that isn't going to help things.

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.

I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc

I'll post a positive.

They didn't give up and left with pride intact. That's still important.

I think of the Clive Woodward days and that could have been a 50 point humping.

That Johnny May try reminded me of Ben Cohen's in 2002 against us in Twickenham

DOB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

Rhys Ruddock says hello.

And I’ll address Rhys when he can stay fit and hold down a spot in the Leinster backrow for an extended period of time.

Big fan of him btw. He should have broken in Fardys house a couple years ago and broken his legs, because his job sharing and injury record has robbed him of the chance to be the man in green.

I think we can all agree Farrell is not the man to take us forward.

We knew what England would bring. We didn’t design a decent gameplan to deal with it. He hasn’t changed our style so comments that he needs time doesn’t compute imo.

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:31 pm

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm

camroc1 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm

Mr. Very Popular wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.

You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.

He sat miles too deep and shuffled the ball along to a forward way behind the gainline and then when that didn't work we threw loopy passes wide. Aki and Farrell aren't exactly going to create something out of nothing but they didn't have much chance after we'd gone backwards 10 phases in a row before that. It was no surprise that we started to bypass Byrne when Murray came on and then when Burns did come on he try to play a bit flatter and ultimately that led to a try.

Byrne looked like creating a try as much as I did, and I was sitting on a sofa in Leeds.


I'm not saying Byrne is the problem with this side but he's not up to this level and that isn't going to help things.

Not even the most hardened Leinster fan has suggested he's top class international level. You'll have heard us talk about when his brother, or Hawkshaw will take over at Leinster.

England aren't as good as they looked, nor Ireland as bad as the looked today.

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm

Floppykid wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm

He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.

I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.

Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?

I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?

My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.

We’re definitely missing a bit of edge in the pack and I don’t think it’s all about size . England aren’t that much bigger than us up front but they make more hard yards in contact , get up to the line quicker and hit harder . The biggest difference between us and England is intensity

England are very ordinary, and are coaching into a corner. Unfortunately there aren’t many teams like that Saffer side that can expose them for their limitations.

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.

I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc

Japan have gamebreakers though, their wingers are genuine threats from anywhere and they have powerful and pacy carriers in the backrow (their backrow made 138m, compared to 43 from us), sure we might have on average better players but we are lacking game breakers, which is why we need Stockdale in the team somewhere and we need to hope someone like Coombs continues to smash through people as he moves up the levels in the backrow.

DOB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

Rhys Ruddock says hello.

Needs to convince Leo to pick him in big games for Leinster.

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm What we now know to be fact:

We’re a mediocre rugby team

We don’t have a tight 5 that can compete with the best teams

We have a poor set piece

Our backs offer no threat in attack and are very easy to defend against.

We are really badly coached

We're very much in transition. We have a number of players breaking through at the provinces who could be really, really good. But all including the likes of Doris and Kelleher are probably a year or two off being top international standard. They have the potential to get there, but wouldn't be starting at the moment if there were other top quality options.

We will not win a 6 nations soon, so blooding lads especially in games like Georgia next week needs to be the way forward.

The coaching is a bigger worry for me.

We could potentially field a back 3 with 3 real gamebreakers with Lowe, Stockdale and Larmour offering real X factor, with Earls still a capable back up. We then have solid nuts and bolts players like Keenan and JOB as well as the likes of Daly, TOB and Balacoune breaking through. We need to find a way of getting these players on the ball much more and that has to the a second playmaker either at 12 or 15 and a 10 who threatens the line. Frawley, Lowry, H Bryne and Crowley could all potentially do this in the coming years, along with Carbery if he isn't fully broken.

No other top international team plays two boshers in the centre.

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:39 pm
No other top international team plays two boshers in the centre.

Not that I disagree with your post but the world champions do, just so happens their 13 can also make an outside break.

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:39 pm

DOB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm

SFBB wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

Rhys Ruddock says hello.

Needs to convince Leo to pick him in big games for Leinster.

Could've done with him against Sarries.

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:43 pm

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:39 pm
No other top international team plays two boshers in the centre.

Not that I disagree with your post but the world champions do, just so happens their 13 can also make an outside break.

It also comes down to how good their pack is.

Didn't see it, who are we blaming today?

They can fudge off whoever they are

Itoje is a menace but letting him get at your 9 unopposed is a cardinal sin. JPG will take some flak but the forwards let him down too often on basic stuff like protecting his space.

These are all good players but just not organised enough against a well drilled team like England.

That falls on the coaches.

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:47 pm

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 pm

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.

I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc

Japan have gamebreakers though, their wingers are genuine threats from anywhere and they have powerful and pacy carriers in the backrow (their backrow made 138m, compared to 43 from us), sure we might have on average better players but we are lacking game breakers, which is why we need Stockdale in the team somewhere and we need to hope someone like Coombs continues to smash through people as he moves up the levels in the backrow.

Stockdale has been shite. Why would he make any difference. Coming off the bench today he was a bit hungry so.maybe see how that goes. Overall and as many of us said a good while ago this is just a fallow few years ahead. We'll give Wales and Scotland a rattle and hide behind the couch for everybody else

He hasn't been shite though, he's made a some mistakes but he's also had some really good play. People are hounding him over his mistakes but when Lowe and Keenan make mistakes do we see the same reaction? Do we fúck.

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:43 pm

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:39 pm
No other top international team plays two boshers in the centre.

Not that I disagree with your post but the world champions do, just so happens their 13 can also make an outside break.

Lukhanyo Am?

Nothing against the two boys in the centre, both as honest as the day is long. Just feel we need a bit more ball skills in there.

Appreciate today they were paying behind a beaten pack and a deep 10, so feck-all they could do.

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:50 pm

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:43 pm

nabanoba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:39 pm
No other top international team plays two boshers in the centre.

Not that I disagree with your post but the world champions do, just so happens their 13 can also make an outside break.

Lukhanyo Am?

Nothing against the two boys in the centre, both as honest as the day is long. Just feel we need a bit more ball skills in there.

Appreciate today they were paying behind a beaten pack and a deep 10, so feck-all they could do.

Yes Am.

Both centres can make yards but there's nothing except run forward as you say. If we had a player who could bosh and step and go on an outside break like Am we'd be in a better place. Dare I say it but if Stockdale's defence was better he'd be a great option at 13 (and you would allow you to accomodate more wingers) given his size and pace, but his defence is just too dodgy and I think he could be a long term solution at 15.

There are youngsters absolutely ripping it up for the provinces but it doesn’t look like we are going to pick them.

They’ll be going backwards as long as they keep picking Sexton.

Zico wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:03 pm What's John Plumtree up to these days?

Coaching the All Blacks!

For Georgia I'd drop Ryan, consider Hendy as captain. I'd retain Kelleher.

Healy
Kelleher
Bealham/Ryan
Henderson
Roux
Stander
Connors
Doris
Murray
Burns
Lowe
McCloskey (there's a reason he's not been released to Ulster this week or last, they've probably planned on a token cap here)
Farrell
Keet
Stockdale

Herring
Fúck knows, really don't rate Byrne
Porter
Ryan
VDF
Cooney (we can but dream)
Byrne
Keenan

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:58 pm

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:49 pm

EverReady wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:47 pm

earl the beaver wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 pm

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm

I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc

Japan have gamebreakers though, their wingers are genuine threats from anywhere and they have powerful and pacy carriers in the backrow (their backrow made 138m, compared to 43 from us), sure we might have on average better players but we are lacking game breakers, which is why we need Stockdale in the team somewhere and we need to hope someone like Coombs continues to smash through people as he moves up the levels in the backrow.

Stockdale has been shite. Why would he make any difference. Coming off the bench today he was a bit hungry so.maybe see how that goes. Overall and as many of us said a good while ago this is just a fallow few years ahead. We'll give Wales and Scotland a rattle and hide behind the couch for everybody else

He hasn't been shite though, he's made a some mistakes but he's also had some really good play. People are hounding him over his mistakes but when Lowe and Keenan make mistakes do we see the same reaction? Do we fúck.

He has been consistently shite for ages that is why he gets grief. I haven't gone after him you may or may not recall but he has still been shite. Keenan and Lowe aren't around long enough to be pilloried. The way the forwards are playing we'll be giving them gift for a few years to.come.

Wrong

Duff Paddy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:11 pm

Bogbunny wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:09 pm

Jumper wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Farrell is delusional. He thinks Ireland should be proud of themselves.

He was watching a different game from the rest of us

He was a bad choice and now we’re paying for it

Yep, unfortunately

Keenan can make errors and never threaten to win a game. At least Stockdale concerns the defence of our opponents.

Keenan is a tidy footballer, but there will be 15 lads coming through schools in the next 2 years who could reach his level with appropriate coaching and development. It could be 5-10 years until we see a talent like Stockdale again