The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Duff Paddy
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:56 am
Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:38 am
danthefan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:54 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:21 am Image

:shock:
Jaysus he's a big lump.
Too big for a hooker would be my initial thought
Similar size to Bismarck Du Plessis tbf
True but that's the exception not the norm
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Cooney call up opens the door to a possible Lewis Finlay debut?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:01 am Cooney call up opens the door to a possible Lewis Finlay debut?
Would assume Matthewson and Shanahan
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by SFBB »

Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Dupont is probably best in the world at the moment. I didn't have any issues with Murray whatsoever against Italy. Controlled the tempo excellently, and his options in attack were very good. I didn't think there was much more he could have done.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:02 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:01 am Cooney call up opens the door to a possible Lewis Finlay debut?
Would assume Matthewson and Shanahan
Matthewson injured I thought?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:03 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:02 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:01 am Cooney call up opens the door to a possible Lewis Finlay debut?
Would assume Matthewson and Shanahan
Matthewson injured I thought?
Doak is probably next in line after Shanahan, or Johnny Stewart
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:07 am
Doak is probably next in line after Shanahan, or Johnny Stewart
Doak's injured afaik.

Stewart's left.

Finlay was an extra squad member yesterday FYI.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:12 am
Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:07 am
Doak is probably next in line after Shanahan, or Johnny Stewart
Doak's injured afaik.

Stewart's left.

Finlay was an extra squad member yesterday FYI.
When did Stewart leave, and where to? He was named in the 2020/21 squad I thought

On the Doaks, Neil is now head of Talent ID with Georgia Rugby or something now I believe
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:02 am
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Dupont is probably best in the world at the moment. I didn't have any issues with Murray whatsoever against Italy. Controlled the tempo excellently, and his options in attack were very good. I didn't think there was much more he could have done.
There were several times he held onto the ball way too long, one off a lineout in particular.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:16 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:12 am
Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:07 am
Doak is probably next in line after Shanahan, or Johnny Stewart
Doak's injured afaik.

Stewart's left.

Finlay was an extra squad member yesterday FYI.
When did Stewart leave, and where to? He was named in the 2020/21 squad I thought

On the Doaks, Neil is now head of Talent ID with Georgia Rugby or something now I believe
Stewart has moved to Holland to do a business degree.

Might be back after
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

Wonder if he is playing rugby out there
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Murray had his best game since 2018 in green and if he keeps up that level of performance then the debate over who starts at scrum half will soon end .
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
Ahh me aul China!!!

How is Perth treating you?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Mullet 2 »

I thought Murray was good but given the last two years I'd need to see 5 games like that before being happy tbh.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Jumper »

Murray was very good at the weekend. Central to three of our tries. One of Ireland's top performers alongside Beirne and the backrow.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by CM11 »

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/in ... 66782.html

Did I miss talk on this? Bit of a misstep there by the government surely?

Good on the French to make it happen.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

What changes would you make for this weekend?

Personally I'd have Jack McGrath on the bench ahead of Byrne and Kelleher in the 23 if he's fit.

Assuming Farrell is going to go with Aki-Henshaw so there's no point suggesting anything else, the question is then who wears 23, with Keet coming back I'd say him.

We're going to miss Henderson more this week for his piece of idiocy 2 weeks ago, there's an argument for a more powerful partner for Ryan but I'd keep Bierne in.

I'd keep the same back three but I'd want to see Conway get involved more and Stockdale hitting the line when we're a few phases into play.

Despite POM's offload I still don't see the point of him on the bench, but then I don't really see the point of VDF on the bench either, Conan is the sort of player who could make real impact of the bench but then you're relying on Doris or Stander to cover 7 so who really knows what to do. As we're chasing 4 tries realistically I think I would put Conan on the bench.

Healy
Herring
Porter
Bierne
Ryan
Doris
Connors
Stander
Murray
Sexton
Keenan
Aki
Henshaw
Conway
Stockdale

Kelleher
McGrath
Bealham
Dillane
Conan
Cooney
Byrne
Earls
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

Yeah I’d worry about Ed Byrne coming on to scrum down against that French pack . Beirne at second row isn’t ideal given the opposition but I’d still have him ahead of Dillane . I heard suggestions that JR was carrying a bit of a shoulder niggle which would explain his subdued performance (by his standards )
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
This.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

Jack McGrath wasn’t named in the squad for these pair of matches . Only five props included , Saturday’s quartet plus John Ryan. So it looks like Byrne again at 17
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:17 pm Yeah I’d worry about Ed Byrne coming on to scrum down against that French pack . Beirne at second row isn’t ideal given the opposition but I’d still have him ahead of Dillane . I heard suggestions that JR was carrying a bit of a shoulder niggle which would explain his subdued performance (by his standards )
looked to have hurt his shoulder in last leinster game.

not sure if it's the same shoulder he had surgery on or not.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

PornDog wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:21 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
This.
We’re not going to unearth a Dupont any time soon though let’s be realistic . Murray’s performance on Saturday was very good going by the standards of current Irish scrum halves, so it should really settle the argument about who starts in Paris
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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EverReady wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:04 am
danthefan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:54 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:21 am Image

:shock:
Jaysus he's a big lump.
Has the look of a lad who needed a few extra grinds
:lol:
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:23 pm Jack McGrath wasn’t named in the squad for these pair of matches . Only five props included , Saturday’s quartet plus John Ryan. So it looks like Byrne again at 17
McGrath wasn't named by Ulster either though, wouldn't be surprised if he was covering given one injury to a LH would mean Porter playing there.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:43 pm
Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:23 pm Jack McGrath wasn’t named in the squad for these pair of matches . Only five props included , Saturday’s quartet plus John Ryan. So it looks like Byrne again at 17
McGrath wasn't named by Ulster either though, wouldn't be surprised if he was covering given one injury to a LH would mean Porter playing there.
Ulster possibly asked by IRFU not to play him in case he was needed for Paris ? Looks to be next in line but unlikely he’ll feature against France
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:51 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:43 pm
Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:23 pm Jack McGrath wasn’t named in the squad for these pair of matches . Only five props included , Saturday’s quartet plus John Ryan. So it looks like Byrne again at 17
McGrath wasn't named by Ulster either though, wouldn't be surprised if he was covering given one injury to a LH would mean Porter playing there.
Ulster possibly asked by IRFU not to play him in case he was needed for Paris ? Looks to be next in line but unlikely he’ll feature against France
Just don't rate Byrne as an international tbh, just a bit meh.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Murray had his best game since 2018 in green and if he keeps up that level of performance then the debate over who starts at scrum half will soon end .
I think we have to take the quality of opposition into account. I saw a lot of the same problems just against a team who didn’t put us under pressure to exploit them.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by PornDog »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:30 pm
PornDog wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:21 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
This.
We’re not going to unearth a Dupont any time soon though let’s be realistic . Murray’s performance on Saturday was very good going by the standards of current Irish scrum halves, so it should really settle the argument about who starts in Paris
No question we don't have a Dupont waiting in the wings, but we do have alternatives to Murray.

Look I agree he had a good game, but he also had a number of errors in there as well - behind a dominant pack against a shite team. Considering his form of late I just don't think we're anywhere near back slapping territory about his performance.

He's still delaying his pass far too much and making some poor decisions. He's also added a slight inaccuracy to his passing (a few too many slightly high and behind) which is a worrying new development. It didn't cost us against Italy but it absolutely will against a more aggressive defence.

I'm a firm believer in hunger being the best motivator and absolutely think that any of Marmion, Cooney, or JGP now that's been capped, could and should be given a shot and give Murray the firm kick up the hole that he deserves and obviously needs. I also know that that's incredibly unlikely to actually happen :frown:
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

:nod: completely agree with that Porndog. Italy were so poor yet in the second half we still saw slow ball from Murray to a static Sexton to a static receiver. It was really just shocking at this level.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

Think we were watching different matches lads . Hiss passing was very good and better than we could hope for from the alternative options at scrum half . As I said before, I think a lot of people are so entrenched in their views of him after two years of underperforming that they struggle to acknowledge a decent performance when he finally delivers . I agree that next Saturday will tell us a lot more about his rehabilitation than the Italy match , and the same applies to Stockdale
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:17 pm Think we were watching different matches lads . Hiss passing was very good and better than we could hope for from the alternative options at scrum half . As I said before, I think a lot of people are so entrenched in their views of him after two years of underperforming that they struggle to acknowledge a decent performance when he finally delivers . I agree that next Saturday will tell us a lot more about his rehabilitation than the Italy match , and the same applies to Stockdale
Yeah I think that’s fair. There’s an element of that - basically he doesn’t have enough credit in the bank to change my mind after one decent performance against a really terrible Italian team. If he delivers against France then I’m happy to be proved wrong. I think he’s only half the problem though, Sexton is just a shadow of his former self as well
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Conspicuous »

One poster( neither of you ) was even attributing 50% of the blame for Sexton’s intercept on Murray :roll: . Come on like , the pass was more than adequate and left Sexton under no pressure to get the ball away quickly
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:17 pm Think we were watching different matches lads . Hiss passing was very good and better than we could hope for from the alternative options at scrum half . As I said before, I think a lot of people are so entrenched in their views of him after two years of underperforming that they struggle to acknowledge a decent performance when he finally delivers . I agree that next Saturday will tell us a lot more about his rehabilitation than the Italy match , and the same applies to Stockdale
It's not so much that I don't recognise that he had a good game, more that considering the quality of the opposition it has a very small weight behind it in changing my opinion on his overall form. And like I said, there were still plenty of errors in there, most of which we just got away with because of the poor opposition.
Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:25 pm One poster( neither of you ) was even attributing 50% of the blame for Sexton’s intercept on Murray :roll: . Come on like , the pass was more than adequate and left Sexton under no pressure to get the ball away quickly
Actually I would agree with whoever made that point. The pass itself was adequate, but the faffing around before he let fly was a major contributing factor (Sexton of course still should have been aware).

I don't know if there was a complete breakdown in communication or what, but Murray initially looks to pass to the openside, then picks it up takes 4 or 5 aimless steps up the blindside of the scrum before passing. Whatever the fudge that was it wasn't a called play (I f**king hope).

Remember that the Italian backline is the best part of 8 or 9 yards away when Murray picks the ball up (5 yards plus the length of the scrum) - there's no way anyone at any time should ever be in position to throw an intercept on the second pass from a scrum. It should never happen.

I'm not absolving Sexton - he still should have had the awareness of the situation and I assume he takes significant share of the general f**ked up nature of the called play disintegrating, but Murray also shares a huge part of the fault for that intercept.

Edit: just re-watched it and maybe I am being a little bit harsh (and the scrum was more central than I remember). He still does share in the blame, but I've over egged the pudding a bit there.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Murray had his best game since 2018 in green and if he keeps up that level of performance then the debate over who starts at scrum half will soon end .
Agree with this.

He is not the starting halfback I'm concerned about right now. Especially v a Shaun Edwards defence.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

redderneck wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:26 pm
Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Murray had his best game since 2018 in green and if he keeps up that level of performance then the debate over who starts at scrum half will soon end .
Agree with this.

He is not the starting halfback I'm concerned about right now. Especially v a Shaun Edwards defence.
The problem is with both of them. We saw how Itoje single handed killed up by rushing straight up and out past sexton. All the teams now know that our half backs are slow and predictable. We saw exactly the same problem on Saturday against Italy and I expect France to once again kill us with a rush defence.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by camroc1 »

redderneck wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:26 pm
Conspicuous wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:29 am
Duff Paddy wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:00 am
SFBB wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:49 am Do some of you think Murray was anything other than extremely good against Italy?
He was better than he has been recently. He was not “extremely good”. Watch France next week for an extremely good scrumhalf.
Murray had his best game since 2018 in green and if he keeps up that level of performance then the debate over who starts at scrum half will soon end .
Agree with this.

He is not the starting halfback I'm concerned about right now. Especially v a Shaun Edwards defence.
I am.

Murray will either pass (imo slowly) or kick (even more slowly.....caterpillar, caterpillar), neither of which keep a rush defence honest. So Sexton (or whoever) will either get the ball with a Frenchman attached, or else will play in the pocket and kick possession away. Neither option wins Ireland the match.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by feckwanker »

So you're not concerned about Sexton?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by redderneck »

It's a bit of a shit situation for Murray. IMHO his game is currently a lot closer to his A game than Johnnys is. And is likely to ever be again, given profiles etc. But sure as shit, if one of them is to be sacrificed in an effort to bandage over the other's weaknesses it'll be Sexton starting and Murray dropped.

The pairing is deeply flawed; agree on that.

Johnny will start. Merit in a nippy yappy cnut inside him rather than a cruiser.

Tough on Murray, who is more deserving on his own merits of starting than Johnny is. But sin a bhfuil. Outhalves will always win that Jaysus, I'm slowing down, cover me, schtick.

Desperately badly need an outhalf to step the fcuk up.

I fear for the pairing when they both start against a Sean Edwards defence, as they most likely will. Interesting test for Farrell.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by redderneck »

feckwanker wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:38 pm So you're not concerned about Sexton?
It's Cam. He's been concerned about every Irish scrumhalf since Colin Patterson who hasn't been from Leinster.
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