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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
by Flametop
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:15 pm Farrell was such an obviously wrong choice when it was made. I’d be disappointed if the consensus here wasn’t disgust at the time of announcement
I think he just wants to be liked by the players and was probably really surprised to be offered the gig, but happy to pick up a paycheck.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
by camroc1
That was frustrating. England deserved the win, but we should have been much much closer.

One of the things that annoyed me was the number of high tackles England got away with, in particular a shoulder to Healy's head, and yet the TMO brought the game back for Roux's innocuous pushing of an England player deliberately wandering around offside at our ruck. Something England got away with all match, double tackle, one player seals off, the tackler gets to his feet and goes for the ball without any obvious release. I think they'll get badly done by a ref sometime.

England are a very streetwise side to play against, and unless you have the forward power of the 'boks, or the French, will play silly buggers all match.

Our plan was obviously to get the ball through the hands to the wingers who were then to kick into the open spaces behind, and rely on our chase. It never really got motoring, due to a combination of Englands messing with our ruck ball, and having two centres for whom passing would not be their greatest strength.

Chalk Mays length of the pitch try off, and it is probably a more accurate reflection of the actual match.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
by Floppykid
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?
He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
by SFBB
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:16 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:15 pm Farrell was such an obviously wrong choice when it was made. I’d be disappointed if the consensus here wasn’t disgust at the time of announcement
Slow and steady wins the race.
If we go sideways forever other teams might just disintegrate in front of us, like Wales have.

It’s not the strategy I’d employ.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
by Flametop
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:16 pm Does Mike Catt actually coach the team? As in coach some form of an attacking strategy, because that looked like drills you'd run warming up.
I prefer him in his Jonah Lomu role.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm
by SFBB
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?
He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.
Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
by Jumper
Duff Paddy wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:12 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?
Needed a Ruddock out there
Coombes.

It won't address the shit tight 5, but it's a start.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
by Mr. Very Popular
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
by earl the beaver
Nolanator wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:06 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:02 pm
rfurlong wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:52 pm EOS is bang on ..... the tactics were fvcking awful

This isn't on the players ..... it's on easterby, Farrell and Catt .... end of
The players made mistakes
It's both. Shit approach, shit execution.
Shit selection, shit reaction to the situation.

How Byrne can play like that for 70 minutes and not get hooked etc.

As I said there's lessons to be learnt from today, I just don't think Farrell, Catt and Easterby are going to recognise them.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
by Flametop
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm That was frustrating. England deserved the win, but we should have been much much closer.

One of the things that annoyed me was the number of high tackles England got away with, in particular a shoulder to Healy's head, and yet the TMO brought the game back for Roux's innocuous pushing of an England player deliberately wandering around offside at our ruck. Something England got away with all match, double tackle, one player seals off, the tackler gets to his feet and goes for the ball without any obvious release. I think they'll get badly done by a ref sometime.

England are a very streetwise side to play against, and unless you have the forward power of the 'boks, or the French, will play silly buggers all match.

Our plan was obviously to get the ball through the hands to the wingers who were then to kick into the open spaces behind, and rely on our chase. It never really got motoring, due to a combination of Englands messing with our ruck ball, and having two centres for whom passing would not be their greatest strength.

Chalk Mays length of the pitch try off, and it is probably a more accurate reflection of the actual match.
Yep.

Pascal just did the Poite routine of making his mind up early in who deserved to win and reffed accordingly.

Ryan getting done for diving over a ruck just highlighted that England torpedoed over the top all game.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
by camroc1
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.
We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
by nabanoba
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
Smash it up, nothing fancy, no offloads, don't pass to wingers or wide channels, try to take England on physically, kick smartly. Go for the corner not the posts on penalties.

Nearly all of it ill conceiver or poorly executed, so share of blame to players and coach.

Not taking the points when we are so poor in the red zone and England's defence in their strenght is beyond retarded.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
by Flametop
Has anybody checked on Sexton?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm
by Floppykid
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?
He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.
Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?
I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
by Jumper
You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
by SFBB
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 pm Doris is a bit soft isn't he?
He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.
Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?
I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?
My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
by iarmhiman
1st May try aside, we did well in the air against England and the last 3 games before that England managed to win that aspect of the game.

I think we have to box clever. Understand we dont have the game to run over or run around them.

We need to kick against them and keep them in their half......and kick the penalties when they come.

We need to play intelligently, know our limits and box clever. Apologies for the clichés

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
by Rumham
Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm
by Mr. Very Popular
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm
by Jumper
Rumham wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.
He's a good player, but nobody but his biggest cheerleaders expected him to be a great international. He's very good for Leinster at club level, but he doesn't have the talent or temperment for the highest level.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm
by Floppykid
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm

He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.
Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?
I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?
My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.
Maybe moving to 6 can simplify things for him, but I don't see him coming more to the fore against bigger packs yet.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm
by camroc1
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.
You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:27 pm
by crouchy
Rumham wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm Is there anything Ross Byrne has in his locker to redeem himself? Don't give me this beaten pack shit. That is international rugby and there are very few armchair rides out there and you have to be much, much better than that.
No.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:27 pm
by earl the beaver
Doris might not be a bruiser, but he's young and he's got a future.

POM is done, give him the captaincy in nothing games but he should be in the first choice 23.

Stander is a battler, but he's incredibly limited

We don't have athlete's like Curry/Underhill, when we had Ferris/Wallace/SOB they were genuine athletes who could mix it. Whether the likes of Coombes/Penny/McCann will be is a question, Coombes might but I don't think McCann/Penny are going to have that sort of elite power.

I don't know what the answer is for the backrow but Connors brought some urgency, until/unless Leavy shows some top quality form the backrow needs to be him, Doris and Stander but it's not at the levels of the backrows we became accustomed to in the 2000s and early 2010s.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
by SFBB
Jumper wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.
Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
by Mr. Very Popular
nabanoba wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
Smash it up, nothing fancy, no offloads, don't pass to wingers or wide channels, try to take England on physically, kick smartly. Go for the corner not the posts on penalties.

Nearly all of it ill conceiver or poorly executed, so share of blame to players and coach.

Not taking the points when we are so poor in the red zone and England's defence in their strenght is beyond retarded.

They pushed the edge and got away with it, at one stage near the end, just before Farrell's attempt I think, we had a ruck about a metre from the line, Vunipola was at the side, stuck his hand on the ball and actually knocked it on, got away with it and slowed us down. You can't buy that kind of niggle.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm
by Duff Paddy
What we now know to be fact:

We’re a mediocre rugby team

We don’t have a tight 5 that can compete with the best teams

We have a poor set piece

Our backs offer no threat in attack and are very easy to defend against.

We are really badly coached

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm
by Flametop
If it’s any consolation, if we need a new coach Stephen Kenny should be available soon and I have a sneaky suspicion he might be better for Ireland rugby than Farrell.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm
by EverReady
England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
by Mr. Very Popular
Duff Paddy wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm What we now know to be fact:

We’re a mediocre rugby team

We don’t have a tight 5 that can compete with the best teams

We have a poor set piece

Our backs offer no threat in attack and are very easy to defend against.

We are really badly coached
But apart from that.....

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
by DOB
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Jumper wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.
Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.
Rhys Ruddock says hello.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:31 pm
by earl the beaver
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm
Jim Lahey wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm What was our gameplan today?
Anyone?
See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.
You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.
He sat miles too deep and shuffled the ball along to a forward way behind the gainline and then when that didn't work we threw loopy passes wide. Aki and Farrell aren't exactly going to create something out of nothing but they didn't have much chance after we'd gone backwards 10 phases in a row before that. It was no surprise that we started to bypass Byrne when Murray came on and then when Burns did come on he try to play a bit flatter and ultimately that led to a try.

Byrne looked like creating a try as much as I did, and I was sitting on a sofa in Leeds.


I'm not saying Byrne is the problem with this side but he's not up to this level and that isn't going to help things.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm
by Duff Paddy
EverReady wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.
I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
by iarmhiman
I'll post a positive.

They didn't give up and left with pride intact. That's still important.

I think of the Clive Woodward days and that could have been a 50 point humping.

That Johnny May try reminded me of Ben Cohen's in 2002 against us in Twickenham

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
by SFBB
DOB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Jumper wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm You don't absolutely need size to boss collisions, but size makes is much much easier.
Size and power are two cheeks of the same arse. I’m happy to accept the exceptions when they arrive, but it certainly isn’t Doris. I like him, but Ireland will never be anything other than competitive with him as the first choice 8.

Not picking on him. There are a lot of guys who played today who fit that description.
Rhys Ruddock says hello.
And I’ll address Rhys when he can stay fit and hold down a spot in the Leinster backrow for an extended period of time.

Big fan of him btw. He should have broken in Fardys house a couple years ago and broken his legs, because his job sharing and injury record has robbed him of the chance to be the man in green.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
by Jim Lahey
I think we can all agree Farrell is not the man to take us forward.

We knew what England would bring. We didn’t design a decent gameplan to deal with it. He hasn’t changed our style so comments that he needs time doesn’t compute imo.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
by camroc1
earl the beaver wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:31 pm
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:26 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:24 pm
camroc1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:21 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

See how far back JGP can pass to Byrne.
He was in a different season to his pack.

We were trying to get outside their rush defence. Having an Aki-Farrell centre partnership didn't help with the speed of pass.

Really? By passing it so far back that they could have moonwalked up to the gainline and still have been there before any of our backs. And moonwalking in studs isn't that easy.
You'll note the word "trying".

The theory is that you get the ball into the wingers hands in open space outside their defensive line.
We weren't good enough to do it.
He sat miles too deep and shuffled the ball along to a forward way behind the gainline and then when that didn't work we threw loopy passes wide. Aki and Farrell aren't exactly going to create something out of nothing but they didn't have much chance after we'd gone backwards 10 phases in a row before that. It was no surprise that we started to bypass Byrne when Murray came on and then when Burns did come on he try to play a bit flatter and ultimately that led to a try.

Byrne looked like creating a try as much as I did, and I was sitting on a sofa in Leeds.


I'm not saying Byrne is the problem with this side but he's not up to this level and that isn't going to help things.
Not even the most hardened Leinster fan has suggested he's top class international level. You'll have heard us talk about when his brother, or Hawkshaw will take over at Leinster.

England aren't as good as they looked, nor Ireland as bad as the looked today.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:36 pm
by Conspicuous
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:23 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:22 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 pm
Floppykid wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:17 pm
SFBB wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 pm

He just isn’t very big for the level. Coombes will be the man shortly. Doris can play 6 and do his work from there.
I mean, SOB wasn't very big for international level.
Underhill isn't that big, Brussow wasn't. etc. etc.
Can you find the key difference between those 3 opensides and number 8 Caelen Doris?
I'm sure SOB would have done a better job at 8, or 6, than Doris.
Pocock isn't massive but he's a handy 8.

What's Faletau's stats vs. Doris size wise?
My point is he isn’t “soft”, he’s just not big/powerful enough for a game played in that style.
We’re definitely missing a bit of edge in the pack and I don’t think it’s all about size . England aren’t that much bigger than us up front but they make more hard yards in contact , get up to the line quicker and hit harder . The biggest difference between us and England is intensity

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:36 pm
by SFBB
England are very ordinary, and are coaching into a corner. Unfortunately there aren’t many teams like that Saffer side that can expose them for their limitations.

Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 pm
by earl the beaver
Duff Paddy wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm
EverReady wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:29 pm England have better players in nearly every position so the coaching doesn't make a huge difference.
I don’t buy that at all. Japan beat us at the World Cup because we were badly coached and they were very well coached. There is no excuse for Ireland losing so many lineouts today, for Lowe (who rarely kicks) panick kicking away every ball he got today etc etc
Japan have gamebreakers though, their wingers are genuine threats from anywhere and they have powerful and pacy carriers in the backrow (their backrow made 138m, compared to 43 from us), sure we might have on average better players but we are lacking game breakers, which is why we need Stockdale in the team somewhere and we need to hope someone like Coombs continues to smash through people as he moves up the levels in the backrow.