Game of Thrones - Books/TV (Full of spoilers mark nothing)

[Dumbledore]

I like realism in serious historical or period dramas. GOT falls into that category. I'm sorry, but I want the casting to represent the period of time or it loses it's legitimacy. Fortunately, GOT has adhered to this. There are PLENTY of non-white characters and extras over in Essos (which is based losely on North Africa or the ME).

Mate

[jezzer]

Here's his quote Chuckles

Speaking to GQ, the 25-year-old said: 'There are no black people on Game of Thrones. You don’t see one black person in Lord of the Rings. I ain’t paying money to always see one type of person on-screen!'

He's a race hustler looking to cause division with ignorant comments.

He even went after LOTR

I know what he said. It was wrong. Although only about GoT, LOTR is entirely fair.

Fantasy fiction and black people are always going to struggle because fantasy fiction (thanks to Tolkien) exists in most people's heads, including the writers', as "a bunch of white people running around with elves and shit in some vaguely pre-Tudor English analogue". That means trying to insert more black people into it would require messing with the source material, which nerds react to the way caesium reacts to water. The only satisfactory way forward is for fantasy authors to stop treating LOTR as the source code for their fiction, and we're seeing that start to happen (hell, Ursule LeGuin started the trend in the late 60s, to little immediate effect) but there's plenty more scope for improvement.

I don't know John Boyega nearly well enough (and neither, I strongly suspect, do you) for either of us to be able to make an accurate assessment of whether he is a "race hustler", or just a not-terribly-well informed young man who wants to see his BME peers get more paying work in the acting world. My instinct is the latter, yours obviously is the former. I won't speculate on where the difference comes from, but if you're entirely honest you'll agree that you don't really know what's going on in his mind. Personally I find Hanlon's Razor a constant comfort. In my experience when people say stupid shit it's generally because everyone is prone to stupidity now and again, not because of some kind of grift

All the orcs were maori lads

And if members of ethnic minorities never aspired to be anything more than villainous cannon fodder then that would be the end of the discussion, but I suspect a lot of young black men grew up watching Sidney Poitier and hoped they could recreate and/or build on his success instead of getting relegated to "dirty brown man worshipping the white female lead No. 4,592"

Mkaaaay

Better tell that to the 183,456 casting directors in Hollywood who reach for the "Clipped Repressed English" section of the Rolodex when casting any villain.

[tabascoboy]

Martin has said that his work is loosely based on the War of the Roses. That is medieval England, and that was 99% white.

Anyway, the real question is "where are all the asians". They're the ones that are never represented (if anything, black people are over represented in modern tv/movies)

At least in the show there have been Asians cast when there's no-one of Indian or Oriental appearance expicitly descibed in the books.

Irri



The Red Priestess



Child of the Forest

[Chuckles1188]

I know what he said. It was wrong. Although only about GoT, LOTR is entirely fair.

Fantasy fiction and black people are always going to struggle because fantasy fiction (thanks to Tolkien) exists in most people's heads, including the writers', as "a bunch of white people running around with elves and shit in some vaguely pre-Tudor English analogue". That means trying to insert more black people into it would require messing with the source material, which nerds react to the way caesium reacts to water. The only satisfactory way forward is for fantasy authors to stop treating LOTR as the source code for their fiction, and we're seeing that start to happen (hell, Ursule LeGuin started the trend in the late 60s, to little immediate effect) but there's plenty more scope for improvement.

I don't know John Boyega nearly well enough (and neither, I strongly suspect, do you) for either of us to be able to make an accurate assessment of whether he is a "race hustler", or just a not-terribly-well informed young man who wants to see his BME peers get more paying work in the acting world. My instinct is the latter, yours obviously is the former. I won't speculate on where the difference comes from, but if you're entirely honest you'll agree that you don't really know what's going on in his mind. Personally I find Hanlon's Razor a constant comfort. In my experience when people say stupid shit it's generally because everyone is prone to stupidity now and again, not because of some kind of grift

All the orcs were maori lads

And if members of ethnic minorities never aspired to be anything more than villainous cannon fodder then that would be the end of the discussion, but I suspect a lot of young black men grew up watching Sidney Poitier and hoped they could recreate and/or build on his success instead of getting relegated to "dirty brown man worshipping the white female lead No. 4,592"

Mkaaaay

Better tell that to the 183,456 casting directors in Hollywood who reach for the "Clipped Repressed English" section of the Rolodex when casting any villain.

Yes, I entirely agree. Although I hope you're not suggesting that that is the only type of role available to white men with RP accents

[jezzer]

No, there's the buffoonish romantic lead and the world-weary authority figure as well.

[Boobs not Moobs]

Couple of things

Dragonstone looked almost immaculate, no weeds, no mess, empty and perfect. Seriously.

Secondly Sam had to go all that way to figure out that Dragon Glass can be found on DRAGONstone. Home or the Targaryans and their DRAGONS and fecking volcano's. DRAGONS ffs. Plus he admits Stannis told him that but he didn't think it was important or believed it. And for ages Dragonstone has been sitting empty after the daft sod left to burn his daughter. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's a miscast or the part but Euron is shit.

[Chuckles1188]

Dragonstone was glorious to behold. It's nice to see them putting the expanded budget to work.

I'm going to assume that the purpose for Sam being at Oldtown is going to amount to more than just finding out about Dragonglass.

FWIW I loved Euron, thought Pilou Asbaek did a marvellous job of playing the ultimate Axe Crazy pirate king

[Duff Paddy]

Shit episode save for the simmering tension between Sansa and YKNJS. Littlefinger's little smirk and Sansa showing that she now has the measure of him were great. The rest shows that the tv guys have gotten carried away and are about to butcher this box set.

[Raggs]

Couple of things

Dragonstone looked almost immaculate, no weeds, no mess, empty and perfect. Seriously.

Secondly Sam had to go all that way to figure out that Dragon Glass can be found on DRAGONstone. Home or the Targaryans and their DRAGONS and fecking volcano's. DRAGONS ffs. Plus he admits Stannis told him that but he didn't think it was important or believed it. And for ages Dragonstone has been sitting empty after the daft sod left to burn his daughter. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's a miscast or the part but Euron is shit.

Dragonstone being empty was weird, OK Stannis took his army, but surely there'd have been other folks there? On the other hand, given it looks rather isolated, it may be that all traders and supplies simply ceased, and people had to leave since there's nothing to do there.

Not sure on the Sam/Stannis thing, I think Sam researching is still smart, but you'd have thought they'd have sent someone down there to check immediately.

[eldanielfire]

a leak said Dany and Jon will do the "deed" in episode 8 but i think Indira Varma (Ellaria) will take hers out next episode

That'd be Jon bonking his Aunt wouldn't it?

To be fair, if my Aunt looked like that I'd be keen.

yeah but at that point, neither is aware that they are related but they do find that out in that episode and that is where the season will end

If Bran meets Jon then he'll tell him who his parents are. I can't really see Jon and Dany meeting before Bran reunites with Jon and Sansa.

Does Jon or Dany have the better claim to the Iron Throne? Jon's Father was the heir apparent, but Jon is still a bastard, albeit a royal one. And Dany is the sister of the heir apparent. I'm not sure how it would work, though Stannis offering to legitimize Jon would mean that he has no claim being a bastard.

It cold be that Jon's parents got married. Targarians did used to have multiple wives or sister/wives or whatever.

[Boobs not Moobs]

Dragonstone was glorious to behold. It's nice to see them putting the expanded budget to work.

I'm going to assume that the purpose for Sam being at Oldtown is going to amount to more than just finding out about Dragonglass.

FWIW I loved Euron, thought Pilou Asbaek did a marvellous job of playing the ultimate Axe Crazy pirate king

He's there to train as a Meister but did he really need a picture book for him to figure out where it is considering he was told and there's a lot of clues. Just because he can read doesn't mean he isn't as thick as mince as the saying goes.

From Wikia

Season 5 ep 5

Stannis tells Sam that there is dragonglass on Dragonstone, and encourages him to continue his research into ways to defeat the White Walkers.[8]

So same has wasted a season and a half???

[Uncle Fester]

Chuck

There's an area called the Summer Isles which is based on Africa (where Hota is from), but this place hasn't featured greatly in the series. Essos, as I said, is based on MENA. Which is why they they all look middle eastern. I say they're doing the demographics SPOT ON.

Hotah was actually from Norvos, which is Norse/Viking and is described as being a burly bearded white man in the books. Loads of people pictured him as black though, even before the show.

Essos is Eurasia basically.

Summer isles is off the coast of a large continent, which is analogous to Africa. Summer islanders are also significantly more advanced technologically than Westorosi, having caravels instead of galleys.

[tabascoboy]

Dragonstone was glorious to behold. It's nice to see them putting the expanded budget to work.

I'm going to assume that the purpose for Sam being at Oldtown is going to amount to more than just finding out about Dragonglass.

FWIW I loved Euron, thought Pilou Asbaek did a marvellous job of playing the ultimate Axe Crazy pirate king

He's there to train as a Meister but did he really need a picture book for him to figure out where it is considering he was told and there's a lot of clues. Just because he can read doesn't mean he isn't as thick as mince as the saying goes.

Same in the books where the info somehow never gets from Stannis to Sam about the dragonglass deposits. Sam is sent to find out where it can be found while Stannis sends a raven back to Dragonstone telling one of his men to start mining it.

The problems I suppose of adaptation.

[eldanielfire]

Black actors would like to be cast in things. Doesn't seem like the most outrageous request in the world to me, but obviously them asking for it is something something the downfall of western civilisation

Oh dear the "Not the downfall of western civilisation" or "not the end of the world" point to counter posts which never indicated such a thing as if that is the only just cause to criticise something.

[eldanielfire]

Here's his quote Chuckles

Speaking to GQ, the 25-year-old said: 'There are no black people on Game of Thrones. You don’t see one black person in Lord of the Rings. I ain’t paying money to always see one type of person on-screen!'

He's a race hustler looking to cause division with ignorant comments.

He even went after LOTR

Well he clearly did if he knows there where no black people on screen. I assume he's made the same criticism of the first Star Wars movie in public as well.

[Chuckles1188]

Black actors would like to be cast in things. Doesn't seem like the most outrageous request in the world to me, but obviously them asking for it is something something the downfall of western civilisation

Oh dear the "Not the downfall of western civilisation" or "not the end of the world" point to counter posts which never indicated such a thing as if that is the only just cause to criticise something.

I was being metaphorical. Not very helpfully, I'll admit

[Uncle Fester]

I'm very wary of people who drop creepy newspeak like that as if it's normal conversation.

Broflakes are guilty of the same naming conventions that they accuse their opponents of.

I'd also be wary of folks jumping to react to what Boyega says. He's demonstrably wrong and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Making an even bigger deal out of it suggests an agenda of their own.

[Chuckles1188]

I'm very wary of people who drop creepy newspeak like that as if it's normal conversation.

Broflakes are guilty of the same naming conventions that they accuse their opponents of.

I'd also be wary of folks jumping to react to what Boyega says. He's demonstrably wrong and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Making an even bigger deal out of it suggests an agenda of their own.

I get people reacting to what they see as part of a worrying trend. I just don't see it that way. I agree entirely that him being inarguably incorrect about Game of Thrones is the major point here

[Duff Paddy]

[eldanielfire]

Couple of things

Dragonstone looked almost immaculate, no weeds, no mess, empty and perfect. Seriously.

Secondly Sam had to go all that way to figure out that Dragon Glass can be found on DRAGONstone. Home or the Targaryans and their DRAGONS and fecking volcano's. DRAGONS ffs. Plus he admits Stannis told him that but he didn't think it was important or believed it. And for ages Dragonstone has been sitting empty after the daft sod left to burn his daughter. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's a miscast or the part but Euron is shit.

From that logic Turkey's can be found in Turkey.....

name of places are varied, it could be he assumed Dragonstone's name came came from it's association with Targaryans.

[croyals]

There doesn't really need to be racially based casting for something like GOT. If its realistic enough to have dragons, its realistic enough to have a few ethnic minorities.

The issue is more the ridiculous articles bemoaning the lack of diversity in films like Dunkirk, which if taken to a conclusion would make making a historical film pretty much impossible.

[eldanielfire]

There doesn't really need to be racially based casting for something like GOT. If its realistic enough to have dragons, its realistic enough to have a few ethnic minorities.

The issue is more the ridiculous articles bemoaning the lack of diversity in films like Dunkirk, which if taken to a conclusion would make making a historical film pretty much impossible.

And it does.

[Boobs not Moobs]

Couple of things

Dragonstone looked almost immaculate, no weeds, no mess, empty and perfect. Seriously.

Secondly Sam had to go all that way to figure out that Dragon Glass can be found on DRAGONstone. Home or the Targaryans and their DRAGONS and fecking volcano's. DRAGONS ffs. Plus he admits Stannis told him that but he didn't think it was important or believed it. And for ages Dragonstone has been sitting empty after the daft sod left to burn his daughter. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's a miscast or the part but Euron is shit.

From that logic Turkey's can be found in Turkey.....

name of places are varied, it could be he assumed Dragonstone's name came came from it's association with Targaryans.

If you'd never seen a turkey but was looking for some and If you heard there was a country call Turkey wouldn't you think that's a place to start or at least not ignore it. And then if someone actually said you should look into finding Turkeys and there's loads in Turkey wouldn't the penny drop to go to bloomin Turkey.

[croyals]

There doesn't really need to be racially based casting for something like GOT. If its realistic enough to have dragons, its realistic enough to have a few ethnic minorities.

The issue is more the ridiculous articles bemoaning the lack of diversity in films like Dunkirk, which if taken to a conclusion would make making a historical film pretty much impossible.

And it does.

Yes, my point is more that it wouldn't be ridiculous for a few Westerosi lords/smallfolk to be from ethnic minorities as well. Particularly in somewhere like Kings Landing.

[Duff Paddy]

There doesn't really need to be racially based casting for something like GOT. If its realistic enough to have dragons, its realistic enough to have a few ethnic minorities.

The issue is more the ridiculous articles bemoaning the lack of diversity in films like Dunkirk, which if taken to a conclusion would make making a historical film pretty much impossible.

And it does.

Yes, my point is more that it wouldn't be ridiculous for a few Westerosi lords/smallfolk to be from ethnic minorities as well. Particularly in somewhere like Kings Landing.

Are you trying a bit hard to impose modern multicultural society in a medieval setting

[Chuckles1188]

Don't understand why the idea of black people in a medieval setting is so mind-boggling to people.

[eldanielfire]

Couple of things

Dragonstone looked almost immaculate, no weeds, no mess, empty and perfect. Seriously.

Secondly Sam had to go all that way to figure out that Dragon Glass can be found on DRAGONstone. Home or the Targaryans and their DRAGONS and fecking volcano's. DRAGONS ffs. Plus he admits Stannis told him that but he didn't think it was important or believed it. And for ages Dragonstone has been sitting empty after the daft sod left to burn his daughter. Am I missing something here?

I don't know if it's a miscast or the part but Euron is shit.

From that logic Turkey's can be found in Turkey.....

name of places are varied, it could be he assumed Dragonstone's name came came from it's association with Targaryans.

If you'd never seen a turkey but was looking for some and If you heard there was a country call Turkey wouldn't you think that's a place to start or at least not ignore it. And then if someone actually said you should look into finding Turkeys and there's loads in Turkey wouldn't the penny drop to go to bloomin Turkey.

Not as an adult.

[croyals]

There doesn't really need to be racially based casting for something like GOT. If its realistic enough to have dragons, its realistic enough to have a few ethnic minorities.

The issue is more the ridiculous articles bemoaning the lack of diversity in films like Dunkirk, which if taken to a conclusion would make making a historical film pretty much impossible.

And it does.

Yes, my point is more that it wouldn't be ridiculous for a few Westerosi lords/smallfolk to be from ethnic minorities as well. Particularly in somewhere like Kings Landing.

Are you trying a bit hard to impose modern multicultural society in a medieval setting

Not really, I'm saying:
1) In a fantasy world with dragons and ice zombies the idea of a few black lords isn't the thing that stretches the bounds of credulity
2) medieval capitals and trading ports did have some ethnic diversity, hence why I gave the particular example of Kings Landing
3) there is a fair criticism that our current way of treating fantasy shows limits the roles for minority actors, by dealing with this reasonable complaint we don't have to listen to shite such as Dunkirk being marked down by a US critic, for example, for lacking a person of colour in a lead role
4) the reason GoT is great and seems realistic is its great plot, the intricacy of the storyline and the fact that the good guy doesn't win all the time. It isn't because everyone in Westeros is white
5) I'm not arguing for tokenism, I'm simply suggesting that we should care more about, e.g. John Boyega's ability to perform as a GoT character in terms of personality than race.

[nardol]

I think in the tv version has combined lady stoneheart with Arya.

(Are we allowed call Arya... Arya now? Is it too close to aryan?)

[tc27]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

[eldanielfire]

Don't understand why the idea of black people in a medieval setting is so mind-boggling to people.

It's not. Neither is the idea that people would typically go their lives without seeing a black/asian person unless they worked in or near a port in feudal times in many countries of northern Europe.

[Raggs]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

[nardol]

Don't understand why the idea of black people in a medieval setting is so mind-boggling to people.

Yeah exactly. Medieval northern Europe had people of colour all over the place because they were openly accepted and never hunted off or killed.

[comets]

fudge black people, this is the game of Thrones thread, not the Irish rugby thread, discuss them tits here, nothing more :/

[tc27]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

I would prefer that but I cant see the writers being able to resist a zombie dragon..particularly as the zombie giants were worth an entire CGI sequence.

[comets]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

This image makes me feel we will lose one of the dragons, probably Visery's

Spoiler: show

[tc27]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

This image makes me feel we will lose one of the dragons, probably Visery's

Spoiler: show

Well that seals it - every faction gets a dragon.

[Raggs]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

I would prefer that but I cant see the writers being able to resist a zombie dragon..particularly as the zombie giants were worth an entire CGI sequence.

3 Dragons, Bran takes one to the north, whilst the other two battle it out, Bran's become a zombie?

[tc27]

IIR from the books Euron has a horn that he thinks will let him control a dragon?


Im guessing that's the gift he will bring Cersie? I mean for the sake of narrative Im guessing some of the advantages Daenerys has need to be chipped away to make it interesting...so im guessing there
will be a Lannister Dragon and (somehow) a zombie Dragon!

I suspect Bran takes over the 3rd dragon?

I would prefer that but I cant see the writers being able to resist a zombie dragon..particularly as the zombie giants were worth an entire CGI sequence.

3 Dragons, Bran takes one to the north, whilst the other two battle it out, Bran's become a zombie?

I suspect the Zombie Dragon gets killed in a season finale battle at the wall and last scene of this season is the NK raising it again.

[ID2]

Shit episode save for the simmering tension between Sansa and YKNJS. Littlefinger's little smirk and Sansa showing that she now has the measure of him were great. The rest shows that the tv guys have gotten carried away and are about to butcher this box set.

What the hell is wrong with you