Italy - piss-off

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LandOTurk
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by LandOTurk »

fonzeee wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:16 pm
SFBB wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:04 am I'd rather go to 8 teams with USA and Georgia rather than 5. More games, not less.
:uhoh:

And you all thought Italy was bad...
How to destroy a brilliant competition. FFS. Some of these comments. x(
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LandOTurk
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by LandOTurk »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:06 am How does an 8 team comp work with the Spring and Autumn tours? That's a lot of test matchess.
It doesn't unless you can revamp the club pro game in the NH.
PUMITA
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by PUMITA »

msp. wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:47 pm
PUMITA wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:22 pm We need to grow the sport and not remain parochial. A set of European conferences perhaps when the teams sitting in the ERC have shown they are reasonably competitive. That means more Tests against them in Tblisi for instance or Madrid. Romanian rugby still has a long way to go after the disaster post Ceaucescu and huge drop off in playing numbers and loss of state support and infrastructure.
This is the Irony if rugby is to be successful and grow, it will be the end of the six nations in the same way the British Home Championship in football went.
Indeed. The ultimate development endpoint is to see a European Championships played every two years. In between with seeded groups for qualification. This is many many years into the future. And likewise for all continents with many more nations at a high standard of playing the sport.

We will get there eventually and along the way as in association football many traditions will have to be scrapped and consigned to history.
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Alvise Martinengo
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:50 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:47 am Uncharitable OP. Italy bring a lot to the table in world rugby, not least of which is awareness of our most wonderful game across Europe.
I remember we used to have a few quite active Italian posters on this forum. The Super Marios. I haven't seen them posting much lately.
Lurking for the 32nd loss in a row.
That's a record.
Time to give up ( the tournement and the game).
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Ali's Choice »

Alvise Martinengo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:12 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:50 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:47 am Uncharitable OP. Italy bring a lot to the table in world rugby, not least of which is awareness of our most wonderful game across Europe.
I remember we used to have a few quite active Italian posters on this forum. The Super Marios. I haven't seen them posting much lately.
Lurking for the 32nd loss in a row.
That's a record.
Time to give up ( the tournement and the game).
Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment. As I mentioned earlier, a 6 team comp is way better than a 5 team one. Three games per weekend is ideal. And I'm constantly reminded by NH fans how great 6N weekends in Rome are.

What the Italian situation does show us though is that playing higher quality teams regularly on its own doesn't cause teams to improve. That myth needs to be put to bed.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by MrDominator »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:36 pm Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment. As I mentioned earlier, a 6 team comp is way better than a 5 team one.
And better still than a 4 team one :smug:
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Re: Italy - piss-off

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MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:40 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:36 pm Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment. As I mentioned earlier, a 6 team comp is way better than a 5 team one.
And better still than a 4 team one :smug:
Of course it is. Did you think that was some kind of clever troll?
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by MrDominator »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:47 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:40 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:36 pm Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment. As I mentioned earlier, a 6 team comp is way better than a 5 team one.
And better still than a 4 team one :smug:
Of course it is. Did you think that was some kind of clever troll?
:lol:
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Flyin Ryan »

Squidge's review of the France game on Youtube after he's done waxing lyrical about Dupont he says that Italy played quite well in his opinion, having lots of praise for the 10. His "why did they lose by 40 then?" point is some poor defensive positioning mostly due to a lack of communication because none of the players in the backline have much in the way of caps.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:36 pm
Alvise Martinengo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:12 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:50 am
jdogscoop wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:47 am

Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment.
You're right, but it's time to quit.
In 1996 (Italy-Wales, TM) in Rome, Stadio Olimpico, there were 3.000 attendance.
That's the real dimension of the interest for the game in Belpaese.
No media told of France match, media coverage close to zero.
And btw, I disagree with your point of view, but I don't tell it's stupid. You tell rugby will live long and prosper in Italy? I don't think so I give two, probably three years to bail out. Period.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

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...
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Alvise Martinengo
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

Oh, you'll see how long it will take to shut the damper of Fir. Wait until 2023.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Whatever »

Alvise Martinengo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:47 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:36 pm Coming last in the 6N tournament every year is not a reason in itself to "give up" Rugby or the tournament. That's a stupid comment.
You're right, but it's time to quit.
In 1996 (Italy-Wales, TM) in Rome, Stadio Olimpico, there were 3.000 attendance.
That's the real dimension of the interest for the game in Belpaese.
No media told of France match, media coverage close to zero.
And btw, I disagree with your point of view, but I don't tell it's stupid. You tell rugby will live long and prosper in Italy? I don't think so I give two, probably three years to bail out. Period.
Alvise, how do you feel about playing in a "second division" instead with the likes of Georgia, Romania etc? Hopefully a more even playing field.

And perhaps a promotion-relegation game at the end with lowest team from the 5 Nations, to see if the best is worthy of a crack at the top teams the next year?
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Alvise Martinengo
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

Well, as a matter of fact, it's not a subject belonging to promotion or relegation, it's a normal "excursus" on the phenomenology of the game in Italy.
The only fact, after fifty years I follow the game that this is not our cup of tea. There's no interest in the game, plain and simple.
Since the origins, Fir received during the years of the tournament a huge amount of money to feed a considerable number of foreign players, a redistribution of the fees given by the board. And the law of retaliation has been a poor policy of growth in the youth social stratum. Period.

Sooner or later this liaison will come to an end as everything in the world.
It has been an experiment but it failed.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by azzurro »

Alvise,

I agree that we are devaluing the Tournment and we should really leave it right now.

But I wouldn't call off rugby penetration in the country.

I'm witnessing a great increase in kids joining rugby clubs, the mini rugby meetings (before Covid) were jammed by kids, new teams and enthusiastic parents

junior rugby skill level is as high as ever and is increasing even in regions where the sport wasn't popular at all.

If you take junior rugby it's no longer just Veneto that provides the best teams but also Lombardia and Emilia Romagna.

It takes time and patience but i'm very confident that the movement from down under is solid and will bear its fruits in the next future.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by The Sun God »

azzurro wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:01 pm Alvise,

I agree that we are devaluing the Tournment and we should really leave it right now.

But I wouldn't call off rugby penetration in the country.

I'm witnessing a great increase in kids joining rugby clubs, the mini rugby meetings (before Covid) were jammed by kids, new teams and enthusiastic parents

junior rugby skill level is as high as ever and is increasing even in regions where the sport wasn't popular at all.

If you take junior rugby it's no longer just Veneto that provides the best teams but also Lombardia and Emilia Romagna.

It takes time and patience but i'm very confident that the movement from down under is solid and will bear its fruits in the next future.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Da iawn diolch »

I'd be really sad if Italy left the tournament. I remember how exciting it was to be changing the format and have a new away fixture in the calendar.

However, I can't see what this weekend's England-Italy game (or last weekend's game) is adding to the tournament. Is having a whitewash game that devalues the general standard really better for the tournament than giving England a rest this weekend?

The pundits aren't giving it anything more than a cursory mention, because the expectation is that the Azzuri are going to go over like an old woman on an icy pavement, again.

The only justification for keeping Italy in the tournament right now seems to come from a bunch of boot-cut jean wearing 'lads' who fancy a weekend on the lash in Rome every other year.

That's a pretty shit reason in my view.

Italy need to develop as a rugby-playing nation, but taking a kicking in the 6N every year isn't going to do them any favours at grassroots level. What sensible kid is going to look at last weekend's hammering and say "I want to do that when I grow up"?
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

France: Joined 5 nations 1909. 1st Win 1920
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:23 pm France: Joined 5 nations 1909. 1st Win 1920
Nice stat, but not really relevant to the discussion.

I don't know what the TV revenues were like back then, but I suspect it wasn't as big an issue as it is now... :lol:
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Re: Italy - piss-off

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Da iawn diolch wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:18 pm I'd be really sad if Italy left the tournament. I remember how exciting it was to be changing the format and have a new away fixture in the calendar.

However, I can't see what this weekend's England-Italy game (or last weekend's game) is adding to the tournament. Is having a whitewash game that devalues the general standard really better for the tournament than giving England a rest this weekend?

The pundits aren't giving it anything more than a cursory mention, because the expectation is that the Azzuri are going to go over like an old woman on an icy pavement, again.

The only justification for keeping Italy in the tournament right now seems to come from a bunch of boot-cut jean wearing 'lads' who fancy a weekend on the lash in Rome every other year.

That's a pretty shit reason in my view.

Italy need to develop as a rugby-playing nation, but taking a kicking in the 6N every year isn't going to do them any favours at grassroots level. What sensible kid is going to look at last weekend's hammering and say "I want to do that when I grow up"?
I don't think they'll ever leave, but Italy is a prime example that exposes the lie prevalent in most international sports organizations that money and consistent games alone against top opponents can solve all problems. The guys playing for Italy now were all small children when the Six Nations was first inaugurated in 2000.

Serious question. Remove the national team from the discussion, what is Italian Rugby? I know it's not just 2 teams in the Pro 14, but what's underneath that?
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Flyin Ryan wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:04 pm
Da iawn diolch wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:18 pm I'd be really sad if Italy left the tournament. I remember how exciting it was to be changing the format and have a new away fixture in the calendar.

However, I can't see what this weekend's England-Italy game (or last weekend's game) is adding to the tournament. Is having a whitewash game that devalues the general standard really better for the tournament than giving England a rest this weekend?

The pundits aren't giving it anything more than a cursory mention, because the expectation is that the Azzuri are going to go over like an old woman on an icy pavement, again.

The only justification for keeping Italy in the tournament right now seems to come from a bunch of boot-cut jean wearing 'lads' who fancy a weekend on the lash in Rome every other year.

That's a pretty shit reason in my view.

Italy need to develop as a rugby-playing nation, but taking a kicking in the 6N every year isn't going to do them any favours at grassroots level. What sensible kid is going to look at last weekend's hammering and say "I want to do that when I grow up"?
I don't think they'll ever leave, but Italy is a prime example that exposes the lie prevalent in most international sports organizations that money and consistent games alone against top opponents can solve all problems. The guys playing for Italy now were all small children when the Six Nations was first inaugurated in 2000.

Serious question. Remove the national team from the discussion, what is Italian Rugby? I know it's not just 2 teams in the Pro 14, but what's underneath that?
Yeah, I think I probably agree with you in principle. Italy have quite obviously improved from when they joined the 5N, but if anything the gap to the top teams is even bigger than it was 20yrs ago.

There's something in the rugby system in Italy that is holding the national team back from being competitive. Not enough investment? Not enough participation in schools? Not enough promotion on TV? Non-existent leagues below the two big teams?

Imagine how different life would have been if a generous benefactor had swept in and bought one of the Italian clubs?

They could have thrown cash at it, and gone on a hunt to 'repatriate' as many Italian-qualified players as possible in an IRFU model, with the promise of limited Pro14 games, some Italy caps, and a run at the European comps.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

Da iawn diolch wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:26 pm
Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:23 pm France: Joined 5 nations 1909. 1st Win 1920
Nice stat, but not really relevant to the discussion.

I don't know what the TV revenues were like back then, but I suspect it wasn't as big an issue as it is now... :lol:
There were fewer armchair supporters to worry about ruining the game over, that much is true.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by msp. »

Alvise Martinengo wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:44 pm Well, as a matter of fact, it's not a subject belonging to promotion or relegation, it's a normal "excursus" on the phenomenology of the game in Italy.
The only fact, after fifty years I follow the game that this is not our cup of tea. There's no interest in the game, plain and simple.
Since the origins, Fir received during the years of the tournament a huge amount of money to feed a considerable number of foreign players, a redistribution of the fees given by the board. And the law of retaliation has been a poor policy of growth in the youth social stratum. Period.

Sooner or later this liaison will come to an end as everything in the world.
It has been an experiment but it failed.
Is this not also related to the relative lack of success Italy recently have experienced, Having no wins for 5, 6 years is not going to drive interest. But i did hear the week the Italy beat Wales in rugby and lost to them in football there was a lot of interest generated (may be with touch of humor)

I am sure if Italy could be competitive interest would grow.. just how to get them competitive..
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Mick Mannock »

Better to return to 5N

Avoids the tournament being skewed by
A) who smashes Italy by the most
B) getting three home games
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

Why stop there? Scotland were woeful for decades.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by mdaclarke »

I think the game to day shows that Italy are far better than Georgia
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by franch fan »

mdaclarke wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:50 pm I think the game to day shows that Italy are far better than Georgia
Last week game already showed that, as many, you made the error of getting abused by the scoreline
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by mdaclarke »

franch fan wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:53 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:50 pm I think the game to day shows that Italy are far better than Georgia
Last week game already showed that, as many, you made the error of getting abused by the scoreline
Agreed, Italy may be a level below the rest of the 6N but they are at least 1 level probably 2 above Georgia
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by TheFrog »

Flyin Ryan wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:04 pm
Da iawn diolch wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:18 pm I'd be really sad if Italy left the tournament. I remember how exciting it was to be changing the format and have a new away fixture in the calendar.

However, I can't see what this weekend's England-Italy game (or last weekend's game) is adding to the tournament. Is having a whitewash game that devalues the general standard really better for the tournament than giving England a rest this weekend?

The pundits aren't giving it anything more than a cursory mention, because the expectation is that the Azzuri are going to go over like an old woman on an icy pavement, again.

The only justification for keeping Italy in the tournament right now seems to come from a bunch of boot-cut jean wearing 'lads' who fancy a weekend on the lash in Rome every other year.

That's a pretty shit reason in my view.

Italy need to develop as a rugby-playing nation, but taking a kicking in the 6N every year isn't going to do them any favours at grassroots level. What sensible kid is going to look at last weekend's hammering and say "I want to do that when I grow up"?
I don't think they'll ever leave, but Italy is a prime example that exposes the lie prevalent in most international sports organizations that money and consistent games alone against top opponents can solve all problems. The guys playing for Italy now were all small children when the Six Nations was first inaugurated in 2000.

Serious question. Remove the national team from the discussion, what is Italian Rugby? I know it's not just 2 teams in the Pro 14, but what's underneath that?
What is rugby in Scotland for that matter? Only two pro teams. Small country. And look at them today.

And even Ireland where rugby isn't even close to be the main sport?
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by TheFrog »

mdaclarke wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:17 pm
franch fan wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:53 pm
mdaclarke wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:50 pm I think the game to day shows that Italy are far better than Georgia
Last week game already showed that, as many, you made the error of getting abused by the scoreline
Agreed, Italy may be a level below the rest of the 6N but they are at least 1 level probably 2 above Georgia
The current team shows promises. They need to mature. Some of the decision making is a bit rushed at times and they need a good defense coach.

Also, they need to get their big ball carriers to take the ball with pace, they are to static.

I wouldn't write them off completely.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by shereblue »

I agree

Also with MDAC, that the gap in ability between Italy and Georgia likely remains greater than that between Italy and the weaker 6N team(s).

However Avise Martinengo's idea that there is still little wider interest in rugby there, if true, is what may call into question the value of its ultimate participation.

Is that true though? In passing, I've enjoyed some of the performances of their women at XVs which may be indicative of a growing grass roots interest?
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

mdaclarke wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:50 pm I think the game to day shows that Italy are far better than Georgia
Yup, they have a great set of half backs that they can build a team/ plan around.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

29 in a row, that matters.
The real thing is an ethological experiment by the board, end of Fir contract and a lustrum trial for Georgia in 6 nations, the only way to understand if the game can grow outside the home unions.
And just for the record, poor coverage as usual.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

Alvise Martinengo wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:10 pm 29 in a row, that matters.
The real thing is an ethological experiment by the board, end of Fir contract and a lustrum trial for Georgia in 6 nations, the only way to understand if the game can grow outside the home unions.
And just for the record, poor coverage as usual.
Or just go back to the 5 nations.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by MrDominator »

These Eyeties just aren't up to it.

There should be a simple rule for inclusion in the Six Nations: If you've never won a war, you're not getting in.

Sorry Ireland and Italy.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by 0ber0n »

at least 2 English tries were to be disallowed for clear knock-on, not to mention Farrell's late "tackle" that, in case it were from an Italian player, it would have resulted in a yellow all the way. Probably we wouldn't have won anyway, but men..how can we win a match if anytime we are competitive we get our ambition frustrated by blatant ref decisions? (remember Wales-Italy last fall with the WIlliams tackle on Canna's head)
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by DragsterDriver »

0ber0n wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:10 am at least 2 English tries were to be disallowed for clear knock-on, not to mention Farrell's late "tackle" that, in case it were from an Italian player, it would have resulted in a yellow all the way. Probably we wouldn't have won anyway, but men..how can we win a match if anytime we are competitive we get our ambition frustrated by blatant ref decisions? (remember Wales-Italy last fall with the WIlliams tackle on Canna's head)
The officials were a disgrace.
Two blatant knock ons, Two forward passes.
The Farrell yellow card.
May jumping the tackler.

I don’t usually bag the ref but I was spewing for the Italians. It was on another level of incompetence.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

0ber0n wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:10 am at least 2 English tries were to be disallowed for clear knock-on, not to mention Farrell's late "tackle" that, in case it were from an Italian player, it would have resulted in a yellow all the way. Probably we wouldn't have won anyway, but men..how can we win a match if anytime we are competitive we get our ambition frustrated by blatant ref decisions? (remember Wales-Italy last fall with the WIlliams tackle on Canna's head)
Don't forget May jumping out of the tackle, 20 points off the English score makes it a very different game.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

Johnny Wilkinson "I love watching Italy play"

Put this crap from Mick to bed.
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Re: Italy - piss-off

Post by piquant »

Sawtooth the Beaver wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:13 am Johnny Wilkinson "I love watching Italy play"

Put this crap from Mick to bed.

Unless he Jonny wants to stipulate he hates Georgia, Spain, Romania... there's till a strong case Italy need to do more to prove they're worth a spot. Italy aren't going to want relegation because turkeys don't vote for Christmas, but this Italian side has been something of a turkey for a long time now
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