First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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The Sun God wrote:
dinsdale wrote:
TheFrog wrote:On a somewhat related matter, I enjoyed the "Big Short" movie on Netflix.
I can also recommend Margin Call which covers similar ground but from inside an investment bank - a not very well disguised Lehman Bros :)
Haven't watched the Big Short yet but Margin Call was quite good.

The big short contains the best description of complex CDO’s and their derivatives you could ever imagine, absolutely genius.
mdaclarke
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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Ramming Speed wrote:Does anyone know if the Barclays Bermingham is related to the NatWest one-third? Certainly a resemblance.
Image
Image
I wondered this, it is an unusual surname. Seems like a big coincidence
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The Sun God
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
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BlackMac
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
I'm not entirely sure about the financial aspects of this case but it always seemed that he and others got thrown under the bus.
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The Sun God
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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BlackMac wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:20 pm
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
I'm not entirely sure about the financial aspects of this case but it always seemed that he and others got thrown under the bus.
Not only were they thrown under the bus by their bosses but they then got the bus to stop and reverse over them.
backrow
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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Have there been any recent developments in the German cum ex trails with my old boss involved ?
I’ve not been following any financial press really.
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The Sun God
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:34 pm Have there been any recent developments in the German cum ex trails with my old boss involved ?
I’ve not been following any financial press really.
AFAIK not since the initial suspended sentences were handed down by the courts in Bonn at the end of last summer. I think this COVID shit has put everything on the back foot.
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:57 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:34 pm Have there been any recent developments in the German cum ex trails with my old boss involved ?
I’ve not been following any financial press really.
AFAIK not since the initial suspended sentences were handed down by the courts in Bonn at the end of last summer. I think this COVID shit has put everything on the back foot.
There’s three on going trials and 400 people have been put in notice.

Trial one: same guys from the summer plus 4 more, (2 of which aren’t in court and won’t go to Germany). This is Hypo again.

Trial two : executives at Maple Germany, who are in the hook following the collapse of Maple under the weight of unpaid tax reclaims back in 2018.

Trial three: Deutsche bank vs MM Warburg. Round one to DB, judge told Warburg to sue the broker..


The authorities have an application in to extend the statute of limitations on these offences from 10 to 25 years.

They’ve allocated court time in Bonn , Frankfurt, Maine and Munich for dozens of trials in the next 2 years.
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The Sun God
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:50 pm
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:57 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:34 pm Have there been any recent developments in the German cum ex trails with my old boss involved ?
I’ve not been following any financial press really.
AFAIK not since the initial suspended sentences were handed down by the courts in Bonn at the end of last summer. I think this COVID shit has put everything on the back foot.
There’s three on going trials and 400 people have been put in notice.

Trial one: same guys from the summer plus 4 more, (2 of which aren’t in court and won’t go to Germany). This is Hypo again.

Trial two : executives at Maple Germany, who are in the hook following the collapse of Maple under the weight of unpaid tax reclaims back in 2018.

Trial three: Deutsche bank vs MM Warburg. Round one to DB, judge told Warburg to sue the broker..


The authorities have an application in to extend the statute of limitations on these offences from 10 to 25 years.

They’ve allocated court time in Bonn , Frankfurt, Maine and Munich for dozens of trials in the next 2 years.
:thumbup:
backrow
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

Post by bimboman »

The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:57 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:50 pm
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:57 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:34 pm Have there been any recent developments in the German cum ex trails with my old boss involved ?
I’ve not been following any financial press really.
AFAIK not since the initial suspended sentences were handed down by the courts in Bonn at the end of last summer. I think this COVID shit has put everything on the back foot.
There’s three on going trials and 400 people have been put in notice.

Trial one: same guys from the summer plus 4 more, (2 of which aren’t in court and won’t go to Germany). This is Hypo again.

Trial two : executives at Maple Germany, who are in the hook following the collapse of Maple under the weight of unpaid tax reclaims back in 2018.

Trial three: Deutsche bank vs MM Warburg. Round one to DB, judge told Warburg to sue the broker..


The authorities have an application in to extend the statute of limitations on these offences from 10 to 25 years.

They’ve allocated court time in Bonn , Frankfurt, Maine and Munich for dozens of trials in the next 2 years.
:thumbup:


In other news you’d be interested to know, TP ICAP are seeing CME (owners of NEX) for undisclosed risk breaches from the 2016 deal. This may or may not be related.
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
backrow
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:49 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
I actually don’t beleive this, if a certain exemption or credit comes into force on April 5th and your brand new ‘fund’ has precisely one investment made into a week later just in time for to get nominal ownership say of Carlsberg just before XD date, then does no trading until its wound up ....

The trading part, was entirely legal, as were our large absolute return fees. Some of the people whose money it was, were bent AF.

There is a good reason why UK stocks couldn’t be involved in this, I’m sure you and the saner EU posters know why.
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

Post by bimboman »

backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:39 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:49 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
I actually don’t beleive this, if a certain exemption or credit comes into force on April 5th and your brand new ‘fund’ has precisely one investment made into a week later just in time for to get nominal ownership say of Carlsberg just before XD date, then does no trading until its wound up ....

The trading part, was entirely legal, as were our large absolute return fees. Some of the people whose money it was, were bent AF.

There is a good reason why UK stocks couldn’t be involved in this, I’m sure you and the saner EU posters know why.

These loopholes have been around for much longer than the German cum ex. I saw the first structures I saw on these were in 1991, no one was creating exemptions that a I know of.

The UK is thanks to Gordon Browns abolishment of dividend tax credits in 1997. The first UK trades were Bed and breakfast in the 1970’s
backrow
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:10 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:39 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:49 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
I actually don’t beleive this, if a certain exemption or credit comes into force on April 5th and your brand new ‘fund’ has precisely one investment made into a week later just in time for to get nominal ownership say of Carlsberg just before XD date, then does no trading until its wound up ....

The trading part, was entirely legal, as were our large absolute return fees. Some of the people whose money it was, were bent AF.

There is a good reason why UK stocks couldn’t be involved in this, I’m sure you and the saner EU posters know why.

These loopholes have been around for much longer than the German cum ex. I saw the first structures I saw on these were in 1991, no one was creating exemptions that a I know of.

The UK is thanks to Gordon Browns abolishment of dividend tax credits in 1997. The first UK trades were Bed and breakfast in the 1970’s
You will just have to take my word on it then that some of these exemptions were extremely odd and luckily timed for some investments who got the tax credits.
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

Post by bimboman »

backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:15 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:10 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:39 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:49 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
I actually don’t beleive this, if a certain exemption or credit comes into force on April 5th and your brand new ‘fund’ has precisely one investment made into a week later just in time for to get nominal ownership say of Carlsberg just before XD date, then does no trading until its wound up ....

The trading part, was entirely legal, as were our large absolute return fees. Some of the people whose money it was, were bent AF.

There is a good reason why UK stocks couldn’t be involved in this, I’m sure you and the saner EU posters know why.

These loopholes have been around for much longer than the German cum ex. I saw the first structures I saw on these were in 1991, no one was creating exemptions that a I know of.

The UK is thanks to Gordon Browns abolishment of dividend tax credits in 1997. The first UK trades were Bed and breakfast in the 1970’s
You will just have to take my word on it then that some of these exemptions were extremely odd and luckily timed for some investments who got the tax credits.


What new exemptions? They’ve been no new exemptions of note in the 2000’s, if you’re talking about Denmark in particular then they weren’t actual exemptions and you’re going to prison,
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LandOTurk
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman wrote: Tue May 26, 2015 10:36 am
HKCJ wrote:
bimboman wrote:
HKCJ wrote:I'd love to see Ben Clarkes accounts give him grief.

Or big norm Hadleys when he worked at cantors.... Actually wints didn't put up with much shit either.

I think Norm is still at Deutsche in Tokyo. Always amusing to see him clutching a little Japanese sized beer glass.

:thumbup: , having drunk with him a few times and being a bit of midget myself I can't imagine how he looks in Tokyo, a pint glass looks like a half ....
And to think that exactly 10 months to the day of bimbo's post, Norm takes his own life due t the effects of CTE. x(
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TheFrog
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:31 pm
BlackMac wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:20 pm
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
I'm not entirely sure about the financial aspects of this case but it always seemed that he and others got thrown under the bus.
Not only were they thrown under the bus by their bosses but they then got the bus to stop and reverse over them.
I have not followed closely, but this reminds me of a legal suit in my industry where one of the concern was that, if the justice department got to the bottom of it, it could basically destroy the whole industry locally hence be extremely detrimental to the country and Europe for that matter. As a result, the law suit ended up being a parody of justice, with few scapegoats being sacrificed to the need to draw a line but the people with the highest level of responsibility in the scam being spared...

Which then leads to the whole discussion about justifying CEOs and top Executives salaries, based on the risks they bear on their shoulders...

And the nice talks about Ethics (... this is the highest hypocrisy) and Compliance (another hypocrisy) in businesses...
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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.
Flyin Ryan
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

Post by Flyin Ryan »

bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:10 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:39 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:49 pm
backrow wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 pm Interesting. Wonder if they will ever chase up on who the ‘clients’ were who invested in these things?
I suspect it will be not mentioned that some of the big investors had family links to some European finance ministers chaps who helped generate these obscure wht rebate loopholes between member states of the Eu.

Whatever bent stuff Boris did with his contracts was absolute chicken feed compared to these nice euro chaps.

Helped perpetuate rather than create would be more accurate.
I actually don’t beleive this, if a certain exemption or credit comes into force on April 5th and your brand new ‘fund’ has precisely one investment made into a week later just in time for to get nominal ownership say of Carlsberg just before XD date, then does no trading until its wound up ....

The trading part, was entirely legal, as were our large absolute return fees. Some of the people whose money it was, were bent AF.

There is a good reason why UK stocks couldn’t be involved in this, I’m sure you and the saner EU posters know why.

These loopholes have been around for much longer than the German cum ex. I saw the first structures I saw on these were in 1991, no one was creating exemptions that a I know of.

The UK is thanks to Gordon Browns abolishment of dividend tax credits in 1997. The first UK trades were Bed and breakfast in the 1970’s
I'd go do a google search of "German cum ex" to figure out what this is, however I'm on a work computer and that's probably not a good idea.
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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:|
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
A few interesting things this week. Fairly old news this but I didn’t actually know it.. The expert witness in the TH trial was actually texting people in the industry during the trial to try and discover exactly how Libor was calculated. How the fcuk was he an expert witness and his evidence allowed to stand?! This expert witness firm was paid 450k by the CFA for his evidence. The other thing I discovered was that apparently UBS had a book where each trader wrote down their LiBOR positions and the rate was adjusted accordingly. The judge deemed this evidence inadmissible?!

In other news the CTFC have launched a suit against my old main account for manipulating a certain UK brokers screen whilst a bond issue was going through. Hoping I’m not gonna get subpoenaed but sounds like they have all the evidence they need to hang him for market manipulation anyhow. Can’t say I’ll be shedding any tears for him if it goes Federal and he does time (almost certain I’d think). Just glad I didn’t work at said UK brokers or I’d almost certainly have been complicit.
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The Sun God
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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HKCJ wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:24 pm :|
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
A few interesting things this week. Fairly old news this but I didn’t actually know it.. The expert witness in the TH trial was actually texting people in the industry during the trial to try and discover exactly how Libor was calculated. How the fcuk was he an expert witness and his evidence allowed to stand?! This expert witness firm was paid 450k by the CFA for his evidence. The other thing I discovered was that apparently UBS had a book where each trader wrote down their LiBOR positions and the rate was adjusted accordingly. The judge deemed this evidence inadmissible?!

In other news the CTFC have launched a suit against my old main account for manipulating a certain UK brokers screen whilst a bond issue was going through. Hoping I’m not gonna get subpoenaed but sounds like they have all the evidence they need to hang him for market manipulation anyhow. Can’t say I’ll be shedding any tears for him if it goes Federal and he does time (almost certain I’d think). Just glad I didn’t work at said UK brokers or I’d almost certainly have been complicit.
Why am I not in the least bit surprised. The whole episode was a complete ready up.
I was reading through this thread, from its early days and actually your explanation of how LIBOR was calculated was pretty much textbook...... should have paid you the 450K
bimboman
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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HKCJ wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:24 pm :|
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
A few interesting things this week. Fairly old news this but I didn’t actually know it.. The expert witness in the TH trial was actually texting people in the industry during the trial to try and discover exactly how Libor was calculated. How the fcuk was he an expert witness and his evidence allowed to stand?! This expert witness firm was paid 450k by the CFA for his evidence. The other thing I discovered was that apparently UBS had a book where each trader wrote down their LiBOR positions and the rate was adjusted accordingly. The judge deemed this evidence inadmissible?!

In other news the CTFC have launched a suit against my old main account for manipulating a certain UK brokers screen whilst a bond issue was going through. Hoping I’m not gonna get subpoenaed but sounds like they have all the evidence they need to hang him for market manipulation anyhow. Can’t say I’ll be shedding any tears for him if it goes Federal and he does time (almost certain I’d think). Just glad I didn’t work at said UK brokers or I’d almost certainly have been complicit.

Blimey. That “expert witness “ gag is lucrative.

And as for UBS.... :(( , they did the same to that kid Kweku.... no one seriously believes he was running that delta on his own.
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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bimboman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:52 am
HKCJ wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:24 pm :|
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
A few interesting things this week. Fairly old news this but I didn’t actually know it.. The expert witness in the TH trial was actually texting people in the industry during the trial to try and discover exactly how Libor was calculated. How the fcuk was he an expert witness and his evidence allowed to stand?! This expert witness firm was paid 450k by the CFA for his evidence. The other thing I discovered was that apparently UBS had a book where each trader wrote down their LiBOR positions and the rate was adjusted accordingly. The judge deemed this evidence inadmissible?!

In other news the CTFC have launched a suit against my old main account for manipulating a certain UK brokers screen whilst a bond issue was going through. Hoping I’m not gonna get subpoenaed but sounds like they have all the evidence they need to hang him for market manipulation anyhow. Can’t say I’ll be shedding any tears for him if it goes Federal and he does time (almost certain I’d think). Just glad I didn’t work at said UK brokers or I’d almost certainly have been complicit.

Blimey. That “expert witness “ gag is lucrative.

And as for UBS.... :(( , they did the same to that kid Kweku.... no one seriously believes he was running that delta on his own.
I dealt a number of times with the NCA, who source expert witnesses with, let's say, unusual areas of expertise. It became pretty bloody clear that most of these people were pretty much self declared. Ultimately it is about a court believing the credentials they claim to have and there has been a few absolute spoofers uncovered over the years.
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Re: First LIBOR trial starts today

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BlackMac wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:16 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:52 am
HKCJ wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:24 pm :|
The Sun God wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:27 am So Tom Hayes gets out of the clink today having served almost 6 years. Good luck to him. I hope he can get his life back on track.
A few interesting things this week. Fairly old news this but I didn’t actually know it.. The expert witness in the TH trial was actually texting people in the industry during the trial to try and discover exactly how Libor was calculated. How the fcuk was he an expert witness and his evidence allowed to stand?! This expert witness firm was paid 450k by the CFA for his evidence. The other thing I discovered was that apparently UBS had a book where each trader wrote down their LiBOR positions and the rate was adjusted accordingly. The judge deemed this evidence inadmissible?!

In other news the CTFC have launched a suit against my old main account for manipulating a certain UK brokers screen whilst a bond issue was going through. Hoping I’m not gonna get subpoenaed but sounds like they have all the evidence they need to hang him for market manipulation anyhow. Can’t say I’ll be shedding any tears for him if it goes Federal and he does time (almost certain I’d think). Just glad I didn’t work at said UK brokers or I’d almost certainly have been complicit.

Blimey. That “expert witness “ gag is lucrative.

And as for UBS.... :(( , they did the same to that kid Kweku.... no one seriously believes he was running that delta on his own.
I dealt a number of times with the NCA, who source expert witnesses with, let's say, unusual areas of expertise. It became pretty bloody clear that most of these people were pretty much self declared. Ultimately it is about a court believing the credentials they claim to have and there has been a few absolute spoofers uncovered over the years.
I have been in the markets, right up to MD level at a US investment bank, since the early '80's.... I would be nervous about declaring myself an 'expert' in any area of treasury/fixed income markets, such is the way that regulatory change effects the markets on an almost daily basis now.
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