Next English Coach?

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zzzz
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by zzzz »

In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
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colonel
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by colonel »

pjm1 wrote:
colonel wrote:I may post the following on every thread for the next fortnight

If Eddie Jones wants the job then give it to him
Maybe not on the "how do you wipe your arse" thread though, eh?
id prefer to see it there than posts by people who wipe back to front and smear their own shit on their balls
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nicebutdim
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by nicebutdim »

zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.
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pjm1
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by pjm1 »

ASMO wrote:Why have all the RWC's been won (with the exception of 1) by a SH side? Is it a genetic superiority? Nope, is it more money?
Nope, is it a bigger playing pool? Nope. so eliminate all those and it can only be the coaching.

How many NH coaches have been successful in the SH....can't think of one, how many SH coaches has excelled up north plenty.

Wales (no disrespect) have been punching way above their weight for the last few years, is it because they have better players? Nope.

Answer is simple in my view, get a SH head coach in and put a couple of good young English coaches in under him to be mentored by him, and give him full control over everything and then watch how things improve over the next few years.

Only trouble is that the old farts at HQ will see getting a foreign coach as an anathema and we will end up with yet another journeyman and more mediocrity for the next few years.
Spot on for me. :thumbup:
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kearnstar
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by kearnstar »

colonel wrote:
pjm1 wrote:
colonel wrote:I may post the following on every thread for the next fortnight

If Eddie Jones wants the job then give it to him
Maybe not on the "how do you wipe your arse" thread though, eh?
id prefer to see it there than posts by people who wipe back to front and smear their own shit on their balls
I'm trying to change 30 years of back to front, and it's hard work to get the brain reprogrammed

I seriously wish I was joking
zzzz
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by zzzz »

nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.

I think the issue is more fundamental than that. The whole point of international rugby is that it's your nation's game v AN Other Nation's game. What is on the pitch needs to be a full representation of your game. The coaching team is as important as any player in deciding the outcome on the pitch so why does it get treated differently. No Englishman would ever (seriously) say "We're a bit shit a F/H so lets ask Nick Evans . The AB's don't want him".
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Gospel »

Wayne Smith has said on numerous occasions that he doesn't want to coach against the All Blacks so why is everyone still banging that drum? :?
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colonel
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by colonel »

zzzz wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.

I think the issue is more fundamental than that. The whole point of international rugby is that it's your nation's game v AN Other Nation's game. What is on the pitch needs to be a full representation of your game. The coaching team is as important as any player in deciding the outcome on the pitch so why does it get treated differently. No Englishman would ever (seriously) say "We're a bit shit a F/H so lets ask Nick Evans . The AB's don't want him".

indeed, no nation would ever say "he's a good player, lets pick him even though he's not english. Hes lived here a bit, that should be enough"
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colonel
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by colonel »

Gospel wrote:Wayne Smith has said on numerous occasions that he doesn't want to coach against the All Blacks so why is everyone still banging that drum? :?
just remind him that he's unlikely to coach a winning team against the All blacks
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Keith »

Gospel wrote:Wayne Smith has said on numerous occasions that he doesn't want to coach against the All Blacks so why is everyone still banging that drum? :?
Exactly.
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nicebutdim
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by nicebutdim »

zzzz wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.

I think the issue is more fundamental than that. The whole point of international rugby is that it's your nation's game v AN Other Nation's game. What is on the pitch needs to be a full representation of your game. The coaching team is as important as any player in deciding the outcome on the pitch so why does it get treated differently. No Englishman would ever (seriously) say "We're a bit shit a F/H so lets ask Nick Evans . The AB's don't want him".
Haha well thats thinking outside the box! I'm referring to our national tendency to be very conservative. I grew up oversees primarily watching the All Blacks and Aussies when growing up. When I moved to UK it took me a long time to figure out my fellow countrymen in this respect. Then Clive came along and I thought, ok this now makes sense. Haven't seen it since tbh.
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Cozzer
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Cozzer »

ASMO wrote:Why have all the RWC's been won (with the exception of 1) by a SH side? Is it a genetic superiority? Nope, is it more money?
Nope, is it a bigger playing pool? Nope. so eliminate all those and it can only be the coaching.

How many NH coaches have been successful in the SH....can't think of one, how many SH coaches has excelled up north plenty.

Wales (no disrespect) have been punching way above their weight for the last few years, is it because they have better players? Nope.

Answer is simple in my view, get a SH head coach in and put a couple of good young English coaches in under him to be mentored by him, and give him full control over everything and then watch how things improve over the next few years.

Only trouble is that the old farts at HQ will see getting a foreign coach as an anathema and we will end up with yet another journeyman and more mediocrity for the next few years.
It does raise an interesting question about coaching in general here in the NH. Cannot speak for France or Ireland but here (and sorry my Welsh & Scottish brethren) the structure is fairly well laid out: L1 = Mini rugby, L2 = Junior up to U18s, L3 = Club first, second, third teams etc.

However, once you attain your 'badge' there is not much by way of ongoing development unless you count the 4 hr CPDs that you do off your own back. It will of course differ from club to club - my son's club (Ampthill) is superb .. others in the locale less so.

However, there does not seem to be much 'presence' from the RFU unless something kicks off (violence between opposing supporters, god-awful refereeing etc.). Are we missing a trick? How does it work elsewhere? Are coaches at Junior level assessed on a semi-regular basis on their competency?

Fucked if I know :?

But to your original point - there is a discrepancy between the NH and SH coaches. No question.
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Grouchmonkey
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Grouchmonkey »

nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.
So which one of Eddie Jones, Scabnose and DelMaso is the expert on Japanese culture?

Personally I don't care where the coach comes from, so long as they have a clear focus and plan, and a unified coaching team. It is useful if they understand the game in England and have good contacts (so they hear who is on form at the moment, who has personal issues, etc) but not essential. It's useful if they have played at a high level but better, frankly, if they were crocked or not good enough - gives them a bit more drive as a coach.
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nicebutdim
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by nicebutdim »

Grouchmonkey wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.
So which one of Eddie Jones, Scabnose and DelMaso is the expert on Japanese culture?

Personally I don't care where the coach comes from, so long as they have a clear focus and plan, and a unified coaching team. It is useful if they understand the game in England and have good contacts (so they hear who is on form at the moment, who has personal issues, etc) but not essential. It's useful if they have played at a high level but better, frankly, if they were crocked or not good enough - gives them a bit more drive as a coach.
Eddie Jones is of Japanese decent.
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camroc1
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by camroc1 »

ASMO wrote:Why have all the RWC's been won (with the exception of 1) by a SH side? Is it a genetic superiority? Nope, is it more money?
Nope, is it a bigger playing pool? Nope. so eliminate all those and it can only be the coaching.

How many NH coaches have been successful in the SH....can't think of one, how many SH coaches has excelled up north plenty.

Wales (no disrespect) have been punching way above their weight for the last few years, is it because they have better players? Nope.

Answer is simple in my view, get a SH head coach in and put a couple of good young English coaches in under him to be mentored by him, and give him full control over everything and then watch how things improve over the next few years.

Only trouble is that the old farts at HQ will see getting a foreign coach as an anathema and we will end up with yet another journeyman and more mediocrity for the next few years.
The only problem with that argument is that Gatland is primarily a NH coach, with nearly all his coaching experiance in the NH.

Galwegians (Ire, 5 yrs), Thames valley (NZ, 2 yrs), Connacht (Ire, 2 yrs), Ireland (Ire, 2 yrs), Wasps (Eng, 3 yrs), Waikato (NZ 3yrs), and Wales/Lions (Wales, 8 yrs).

So overall 20 yrs coaching in NH, against 5 yrs coaching in NZ, and importantly, his route up to international coaching was primarily in the NH.
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by SecretAgentMan »

Image
zzzz
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by zzzz »

colonel wrote:
zzzz wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.

I think the issue is more fundamental than that. The whole point of international rugby is that it's your nation's game v AN Other Nation's game. What is on the pitch needs to be a full representation of your game. The coaching team is as important as any player in deciding the outcome on the pitch so why does it get treated differently. No Englishman would ever (seriously) say "We're a bit shit a F/H so lets ask Nick Evans . The AB's don't want him".

indeed, no nation would ever say "he's a good player, lets pick him even though he's not english. Hes lived here a bit, that should be enough"

I think it should be linked to some sort of citizenship/permanent residency. Economic migrancy is a fact of life and I don't think we should treat rugby players and differently from, say, computer programmers. But the whole "well he's played here for 3 years so we can now cap him" thang seems a bit rum. As it happens, I don't think it's a major issue as players who do the years to qualify on residency for Eng do tend to wind up staying here. I think the position would be very different with coaches on 3 yrs contracts.
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Brazil »

zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.
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Keith
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Keith »

Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.
Diamond would be bloody good IMHO. Bonkers, but good. Look at the difference he makes to Sale compared to when he left/moved upstairs etc. Look at what he's done with Cips.

He'll never get the gig in a month of Sundays, though.
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armchairfan
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by armchairfan »

Glaston wrote:Image

Winning coach
Bog off you cant have him! ( or Sanderson, Gussie, Sorrell and Vickers either! )
Brazil
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Brazil »

armchairfan wrote:
Glaston wrote:Image

Winning coach
Bog off you cant have him! ( or Sanderson, Gussie, Sorrell and Vickers either! )
I suspect they'd struggle with the drop in available funds, tbh.
Last edited by Brazil on Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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armchairfan
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by armchairfan »

HertzCat wrote:My "troll" choice would be a team led by Clive Woodward and Eddie Jones. Think of the press conferences, think of the mind games that England could play. We've spend too long as the Tim Nicebutdim of world rugby, let's get back to being the untouchable Alan B'stards...
Can we squeeze Brendan Venter in there and people would tune in just for the post match interview! :D
( make sure there's plenty of biscuits though :lol: )
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Grouchmonkey
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Grouchmonkey »

nicebutdim wrote:
Grouchmonkey wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Its all about the nuance. If its a foreigner then pick a guy that has working experience of your culture and country. If a local then someone who's very very good who thinks outside the box.
So which one of Eddie Jones, Scabnose and DelMaso is the expert on Japanese culture?

Personally I don't care where the coach comes from, so long as they have a clear focus and plan, and a unified coaching team. It is useful if they understand the game in England and have good contacts (so they hear who is on form at the moment, who has personal issues, etc) but not essential. It's useful if they have played at a high level but better, frankly, if they were crocked or not good enough - gives them a bit more drive as a coach.
Eddie Jones is of Japanese decent.
Ah - fair enough. My bad.
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armchairfan
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by armchairfan »

Brazil wrote:
armchairfan wrote:
Glaston wrote:Image

Winning coach
Bog off you cant have him! ( or Sanderson, Gussie, Sorrell and Vickers either! )
I suspect they'd struggle with the drop in available funds, tbh.
More from upcoming retirements at the end of this season.. but I can take a couple of years mid table as there's some cracking young talent coming through and even if the present looks a bit hazy the future looks good.
zzzz
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by zzzz »

Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.

Well he shares a core characteristic with Sir Clive.
Spoiler: show
He's a bit of a c*nt
Brazil
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Brazil »

zzzz wrote:
Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.

Well he shares a core characteristic with Sir Clive.
Spoiler: show
He's a bit of a c*nt
Only a bit? He's worked wonders with slim pickings at Sale, and is more of what we need than some bastard hybrid of school-marmish prurience, nepotism and nu-age philosophy. Plus he won't be allowed to select two boshers in midfield. Oh, hang on...
zzzz
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by zzzz »

Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.

Well he shares a core characteristic with Sir Clive.
Spoiler: show
He's a bit of a c*nt
Only a bit? He's worked wonders with slim pickings at Sale, and is more of what we need than some bastard hybrid of school-marmish prurience, nepotism and nu-age philosophy. Plus he won't be allowed to select two boshers in midfield. Oh, hang on...
It'll be a very... err... direct brand of rugby. I wonder how many Russians and Georgians he could get naturalised in time for 2019?
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Calculus
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Calculus »

Image

can’t do any worse than the current plank
Brazil
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Brazil »

zzzz wrote:
Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Brazil wrote:
zzzz wrote:In hindsight Lancaster and Peter Moores look like a very similar mistakes. Fine men and great development coaches but lacking ability or quality at the top level.

I would like to see an English coach. If the pickings are a bit slim, so be it. That's kind of the point of international sport.
Steve Diamond for England.

Well he shares a core characteristic with Sir Clive.
Spoiler: show
He's a bit of a c*nt
Only a bit? He's worked wonders with slim pickings at Sale, and is more of what we need than some bastard hybrid of school-marmish prurience, nepotism and nu-age philosophy. Plus he won't be allowed to select two boshers in midfield. Oh, hang on...
It'll be a very... err... direct brand of rugby. I wonder how many Russians and Georgians he could get naturalised in time for 2019?
We've only a couple of them at the moment. Also, alongside Barritt, Tuitupuo and Leota look like Obolensky and Mike Gibson.
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Carfer
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Carfer »

Better option:

Image
Last edited by Carfer on Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
argus
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by argus »

i would say - fudge it, give it to Eddie and Jake White and give them two years with specfic metrics they have to meet.

Win the 6N

win a match on every SH tour

Done
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Carfer
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Carfer »

argus wrote:i would say - f**k it, give it to Eddie and Jake White and give them two years with specfic metrics they have to meet.

Win the 6N

win a match on every SH tour

Done
Stuart Lancaster did it (if he had resigned in 2013) : 2013 England Rugby Union Tour of Argentina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Engl ... _Argentina
Last edited by Carfer on Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by toweliechaos »

shaggy wrote:Shaun Edwards can go f**k himself. Tied himself to Wales, let him rot there.
So very much this. fudge him and his 'Tyres' from 'Spaced' face.

Anyone suggesting it needs to uppercut themselves immediately.

Current poison = Andy Farrell = ex-RL player = remove
Recommended cure = Shaun Edwards = another ex-RL player = derp!

For the last fucking time, everyone associated with Rugby League fudge OFF back to mungo land and your 13 identikit lumps running backwards and forward in lines stretched across the pitch. You were relevant in 1990 when proper rugby thought about trying out professionalism. It's over 20 years later. You're now as relevant and helpful as a 20 year old dump in the toilet.

<breathe>
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Raggs »

Except Wales, and Edwards defence, seem to use the breakdown as a real tool, as opposed to most of what we've done, which seemed to see it as an annoyance.
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badmannotinjapan
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by badmannotinjapan »

Gospel wrote:Wayne Smith has said on numerous occasions that he doesn't want to coach against the All Blacks so why is everyone still banging that drum? :?
This and Ted is now too old. He's more of an advisor/critic these days.

I hear McGOAT is off contract at the completion of the RWC...
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theo
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by theo »

The list of potential candidates is not overwhelming.

We should have grabbed Eddie Jones.
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Laurent »

Image

or
Image

or
Image

or
Image

take your pick
Croft
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Croft »

theo wrote:The list of potential candidates is not overwhelming.

We should have grabbed Eddie Jones.
Yup. He's the most talented and has wanted the job for ages.
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by SaintK »

Laurent wrote:Image

or
Image

or
Image

or
Image

take your pick
Who are 2 and 4?
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Laurent
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Re: Next English Coach?

Post by Laurent »

seriously ?

Brunel and Berbizier
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