OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

All things Rugby

Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

spookly
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:46 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by spookly »

derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
:nod:
Four phonies more like
Anyone sane can see free movement doesn't work in the current EU shape. It worked when it was a group of countries with similar living standards and didn't have a shambolic migration crisis to deal with but it doesn't work now. Also as explained already there's no free movement of services.
Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
Depends on the surveys and when they were done. Of late it appears that anti-immigration views are on the rise.

I don't think most people really support all of the ideals of the right wing parties, but those same parties seem to be enjoying a lot of success on the back of being a bit different than the same old political parties, and being the only parties with anti-immigration policies.
No doubt but most Europeans seem to be capable of distinguishing refugees/asylum seekers (rules set by UN treaties), 3rd country economic immigrants (rules set by individual countries) and the concept of EU citizenship movement rights (rules set by the Maastricht treaty). The brexiters seem to have successfully convinced a large swath that the EU is responsible for all immigrants even though less than 20% of U.K. foreign born residents are there because of the EU. It's possible to want fewer asylum seekers but still be in favor of EU freedom of movement.
If anyone given citizenship of an EU country can come to the UK, and we have no control over EU countries granting permanent residence to migrants or refugees.... then guess what... the end result is that the UK would be affected by the policy decisions of each of the other EU countries.
How are the million plus refugees working out for Germany so far? Even outside of the terror attacks, it does not appear to be going swimmingly. Do you really think all of those 'refugees' will be going home? (refugees in quotes, as I suspect there are a significant number of migrants mixed in with the genuine refugees and asylum seekers)
derriz
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by derriz »

spookly wrote:
derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote: Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
Depends on the surveys and when they were done. Of late it appears that anti-immigration views are on the rise.

I don't think most people really support all of the ideals of the right wing parties, but those same parties seem to be enjoying a lot of success on the back of being a bit different than the same old political parties, and being the only parties with anti-immigration policies.
No doubt but most Europeans seem to be capable of distinguishing refugees/asylum seekers (rules set by UN treaties), 3rd country economic immigrants (rules set by individual countries) and the concept of EU citizenship movement rights (rules set by the Maastricht treaty). The brexiters seem to have successfully convinced a large swath that the EU is responsible for all immigrants even though less than 20% of U.K. foreign born residents are there because of the EU. It's possible to want fewer asylum seekers but still be in favor of EU freedom of movement.
If anyone given citizenship of an EU country can come to the UK, and we have no control over EU countries granting permanent residence to migrants or refugees.... then guess what... the end result is that the UK would be affected by the policy decisions of each of the other EU countries.
How are the million plus refugees working out for Germany so far? Even outside of the terror attacks, it does not appear to be going swimmingly. Do you really think all of those 'refugees' will be going home? (refugees in quotes, as I suspect there are a significant number of migrants mixed in with the genuine refugees and asylum seekers)
Actually Germany has deported more failed asylum seekers than any other European country in the last 2 years. And German rates of asylum application rejection are very high. for example this year they have said that all applicants from Afghanistan were going to be denied and have started deporting them - even people who have lived in Germany for years and arrived when the war was at its height. On the other hand the U.K. has given passports to over 3 million non-EU born and no other EU country can complain. Your "fear" is hypothetical at best - There are practically no refugees who end up living in the U.K. through a passport granted from another EU country - they're practically all native born Poles, French, etc. which follows the general international pattern; people granted asylum tend to stay put as the process can take years and by the time it's granted they've settled. Nor does being granted asylum automatically gain you citizenship.
Silver
Posts: 9980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

sewa wrote:
TopNacker wrote:Too little too late. We are leaving, it's just a case of how and when.

Merkel seems to be running EU, I don't recall voting for her. We pay a huge contribution for near zero say in what goes down. That is about to stop.
Yes, you will have huge contributions for zero say
we do now. Out of the EU things will change as we will sit on the international bodies that set the rules that the EU implement. Rather than being excluded as we are now.

We will be elevated from a minor Germany dominated state in the EU. To a major player on the international scene once again. A sovereign nation rather than a minor voice in the EU.
Silver
Posts: 9980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

The only possible option is to leave using the EFTA / EEA route. But a few stupid leavers refuse to accept this. We will then take the first step to become a democratic sovereign nation again. With the people deciding on the future course in future elections.

Stay in and we are f++ked. Democracy is dead. And the UK as a sovereign nation state is finished. Is Nuttall just stupid?

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86321
Brexit: say no to Nuttall
Saturday 24 December 2016

On this blog, we very rarely write about Ukip these days. After all, we are primarily concerned with Brexit and, since the referendum, very little of the party's activities have had anything to do with that pressing issue.

As to the new leader, his greatest contribution since being elected by the rump of a disintegrating party has been to appoint Gerard Batten – the Article 50 denier – as their lead Brexit spokesman. This is as sure a signal as anything that the leadership has descended into the land of the fayries.

Entirely predictably, therefore, we are seeing Nuttall - with the same mindless dedication to stupidity for which he deserves to become famous – set his face against continued membership of the Single Market, churning out the same-old, same-old mantras, with which we've become so wearily familiar.

But now this crass individual is calling in aid the pre-referendum situation, arguing that "almost every leading campaigner for or against Brexit" made it clear during the referendum that "a Leave vote would involve leaving the single market".

In is on that slender "authority" that Nuttall claims legitimacy for his party's current stance, bleating dismally about "something similar to the 'fax democracy'", with remainers "seeking to foist on us an exit in name only".

Setting aside our wonderment at how someone can live as long as this man and know so little, I need to record my growing dismay at the utter fatuity of this tiresome mantra. If it is given its head, it will have us locked into the EU, defeating the aims of the Brexiteers.

The point which eludes these anti-marketeers is that the one thing which will absolutely ensure a clean break from the EU is membership of Efta and continued participation in the EEA. Practically and legally it is impossible to retain EU and Efta membership.

Moreover, we have long argued the need for an interim solution, for which Efta/EEA is eminently suitable. If this option is rejected, the need for an interim or transitional arrangement remains just as powerful, and thus creates the greater danger, of which Nuttall and his supporters seem oblivious.

Without the Efta/EEA solution, Mrs May and her team will be looking for transitional arrangements which will, perforce, involve a succession treaty which keeps us actively involved in elements of the EU treaties. In effect, there is a danger that Nuttall's action will keep us within the Union and prevent a clean break – the exact opposite of what he wants.

The even greater danger is that a prolonged transitional agreement, which keeps us within the orbit of the EU, gives time for the "colleagues" to organise a new treaty which can offer the UK "associate status" which, as an idea, is not going away.

Andrew Duff, still pushing his theme, wants to convert Brexit into an EU-UK Association Agreement, the effect of which would be to put us in exactly the same position that we would have been, had we not won the referendum. Having to deal with this danger is one thing. But having also to deal with the likes of Nuttall glorying in his own ignorance is intolerable.
spookly
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:46 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by spookly »

derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote: Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
Depends on the surveys and when they were done. Of late it appears that anti-immigration views are on the rise.

I don't think most people really support all of the ideals of the right wing parties, but those same parties seem to be enjoying a lot of success on the back of being a bit different than the same old political parties, and being the only parties with anti-immigration policies.
No doubt but most Europeans seem to be capable of distinguishing refugees/asylum seekers (rules set by UN treaties), 3rd country economic immigrants (rules set by individual countries) and the concept of EU citizenship movement rights (rules set by the Maastricht treaty). The brexiters seem to have successfully convinced a large swath that the EU is responsible for all immigrants even though less than 20% of U.K. foreign born residents are there because of the EU. It's possible to want fewer asylum seekers but still be in favor of EU freedom of movement.
If anyone given citizenship of an EU country can come to the UK, and we have no control over EU countries granting permanent residence to migrants or refugees.... then guess what... the end result is that the UK would be affected by the policy decisions of each of the other EU countries.
How are the million plus refugees working out for Germany so far? Even outside of the terror attacks, it does not appear to be going swimmingly. Do you really think all of those 'refugees' will be going home? (refugees in quotes, as I suspect there are a significant number of migrants mixed in with the genuine refugees and asylum seekers)
Actually Germany has deported more failed asylum seekers than any other European country in the last 2 years. And German rates of asylum application rejection are very high. for example this year they have said that all applicants from Afghanistan were going to be denied and have started deporting them - even people who have lived in Germany for years and arrived when the war was at its height. On the other hand the U.K. has given passports to over 3 million non-EU born and no other EU country can complain. Your "fear" is hypothetical at best - There are practically no refugees who end up living in the U.K. through a passport granted from another EU country - they're practically all native born Poles, French, etc. which follows the general international pattern; people granted asylum tend to stay put as the process can take years and by the time it's granted they've settled. Nor does being granted asylum automatically gain you citizenship.
I don't have any "fear". I have no problem with immigration at all. but I do recognise the silliness of free movement with a group of countries with wildly different economic situations. I also recognise the problems of integrating all of these people into society, some of whom do not even want to integrate.

Ultimately it does not affect me all that much. I'm lucky enough to work in a sector that does not have enough people with the right skills and experience, and very few immigrants would be coming in with those skills.

As for Germany.... Merkel let in 1 million+ refugees last year alone. And no matter how many they remove there will be a very large number that remain.
User avatar
TranceNRG
Posts: 9984
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Sunny London
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote:
spookly wrote:
derriz wrote: Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
Depends on the surveys and when they were done. Of late it appears that anti-immigration views are on the rise.

I don't think most people really support all of the ideals of the right wing parties, but those same parties seem to be enjoying a lot of success on the back of being a bit different than the same old political parties, and being the only parties with anti-immigration policies.
No doubt but most Europeans seem to be capable of distinguishing refugees/asylum seekers (rules set by UN treaties), 3rd country economic immigrants (rules set by individual countries) and the concept of EU citizenship movement rights (rules set by the Maastricht treaty). The brexiters seem to have successfully convinced a large swath that the EU is responsible for all immigrants even though less than 20% of U.K. foreign born residents are there because of the EU. It's possible to want fewer asylum seekers but still be in favor of EU freedom of movement.
If anyone given citizenship of an EU country can come to the UK, and we have no control over EU countries granting permanent residence to migrants or refugees.... then guess what... the end result is that the UK would be affected by the policy decisions of each of the other EU countries.
How are the million plus refugees working out for Germany so far? Even outside of the terror attacks, it does not appear to be going swimmingly. Do you really think all of those 'refugees' will be going home? (refugees in quotes, as I suspect there are a significant number of migrants mixed in with the genuine refugees and asylum seekers)
Actually Germany has deported more failed asylum seekers than any other European country in the last 2 years. And German rates of asylum application rejection are very high. for example this year they have said that all applicants from Afghanistan were going to be denied and have started deporting them - even people who have lived in Germany for years and arrived when the war was at its height. On the other hand the U.K. has given passports to over 3 million non-EU born and no other EU country can complain. Your "fear" is hypothetical at best - There are practically no refugees who end up living in the U.K. through a passport granted from another EU country - they're practically all native born Poles, French, etc. which follows the general international pattern; people granted asylum tend to stay put as the process can take years and by the time it's granted they've settled. Nor does being granted asylum automatically gain you citizenship.
So how many have they actually deported? They might have deported 1000 economic migrants and would be higher than the numbers deported in other countries but it's a tiny number compared to the 1.5 million that made in to Germany in 2015 alone. It's common knowledge that it's very difficult to deport migrants so the best way to avoid a such crisis is to not let them in the first place and have vigorous border controls and vetting and not this soft approach.
Rugby2023
Posts: 12172
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rugby2023 »

derriz wrote:Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
The most recent actually had 68% of Britons supporting free movement. Probably somewhat inflated but it's not surprising, because the yougov polls said a similar thing - but with an important caveat question that perhaps doesn't get asked by eurobarometer.
New YouGov research across seven European countries reveals strong support among British people for their own citizens having the right to freedom of movement in the EU, but this reverses when asked about other EU citizens coming here.

When thinking about their own right to live and work in other EU countries support for freedom of movement is net +47 in Britain, but when a separate sample of people were asked about the freedom of movement of citizens from other EU countries to live and work in Britain opinion shifts to net -12. In Norway the shift is from +48 to -17.
Everyone wants freedom to move where they want to go, but when it comes to foreigners coming to their country unrestricted the tune quickly changes.

Given Britain and Norway demonstrate a similar pattern, are we to believe the continental European nations are vastly different in their outlook or do they just not get asked that question.
spookly
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:46 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by spookly »

Rugby2023 wrote:
derriz wrote:Except that survey after survey shows that freedom of movement is overwhelmingly viewed as a positive among Europeans. Admittedly the U.K. is an outlier in the eurobarometer surveys in having one of the least positive views towards it but if the brits go into negotiations with the notion that freedom of movement is an unpopular imposition on the European public by EU bureaucrats, they're in for a shock.
The most recent actually had 68% of Britons supporting free movement. Probably somewhat inflated but it's not surprising, because the yougov polls said a similar thing - but with an important caveat question that perhaps doesn't get asked by eurobarometer.
New YouGov research across seven European countries reveals strong support among British people for their own citizens having the right to freedom of movement in the EU, but this reverses when asked about other EU citizens coming here.

When thinking about their own right to live and work in other EU countries support for freedom of movement is net +47 in Britain, but when a separate sample of people were asked about the freedom of movement of citizens from other EU countries to live and work in Britain opinion shifts to net -12. In Norway the shift is from +48 to -17.
Everyone wants freedom to move where they want to go, but when it comes to foreigners coming to their country unrestricted the tune quickly changes.

Given Britain and Norway demonstrate a similar pattern, are we to believe the continental European nations are vastly different in their outlook or do they just not get asked that question.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the last sentence. Nobody asks what any of the peoples of the countries of the EU want. Not their national politicians not the EU politicians.

If the Brexit referendum had more options on the ballot to allow it to gauge what people did and didn't want, rather than an in/out, it would have allowed for far better negotiations. It would also have been better information for the EU to understand why the people of the UK aren't wholly positive about being in the EU.
derriz
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by derriz »

TranceNRG wrote: So how many have they actually deported? They might have deported 1000 economic migrants and would be higher than the numbers deported in other countries but it's a tiny number compared to the 1.5 million that made in to Germany in 2015 alone. It's common knowledge that it's very difficult to deport migrants so the best way to avoid a such crisis is to not let them in the first place and have vigorous border controls and vetting and not this soft approach.
It was 35k up to the Summer for the previous 18 months - so assuming no rate change that would be 50k over two years. However this rate is likely to increase - there's talk of building a special airport in Kabul to handle the deportations since the Afghanistan deal this Summer. Afghanis make up over 20% of asylum applicants and the new policy is automatic rejection for such applicants. I'm not an expert on this stuff but I read German news sources out of habit. if you're interested in finding out what is actually happening in Germany, you should consider doing the same; most of the main news operations offer articles in English. There is also significant opposition to this plan - the situation in Germany is far more complex and nuanced than the Daily Mail would have you believe.
User avatar
MorseCode
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:07 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by MorseCode »

spookly wrote: I think you hit the nail on the head with the last sentence. Nobody asks what any of the peoples of the countries of the EU want. Not their national politicians not the EU politicians.

If the Brexit referendum had more options on the ballot to allow it to gauge what people did and didn't want, rather than an in/out, it would have allowed for far better negotiations. It would also have been better information for the EU to understand why the people of the UK aren't wholly positive about being in the EU.
Have you learnt the difference between access to, and membership of the single market yet?
User avatar
Rocketz
Posts: 4582
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: United States of Europe

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rocketz »

DAC2016 wrote:
Rocketz wrote:Not really that it matters anymore

Big: EU's highest court (ECJ) declares UK's mandatory logging of everyone's communications to be unlawful. Details: https://t.co/ehu7ng6caV https://t.co/tgZ9VooXOT
Image

Yay UK

Image
bimboman
Posts: 67450
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Info wonder which European countries roketz does have time for.
User avatar
Zico
Posts: 7830
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Zico »

I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
User avatar
Gospel
Posts: 14041
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: West of Londinium

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Gospel »

Zico wrote:I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

Gospel wrote:
Zico wrote:I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
User avatar
croyals
Posts: 7886
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: London

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by croyals »

Merry Christmas all, even you Rocketz
User avatar
TranceNRG
Posts: 9984
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Sunny London
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

easyray wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Zico wrote:I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Zico wrote:I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
User avatar
Gospel
Posts: 14041
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: West of Londinium

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Gospel »

easyray wrote:No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
So it's all about you then eh. Bravo.
bimboman
Posts: 67450
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that
I made a f ucking fortune when the global economy collapsed. I want another recession.
User avatar
TranceNRG
Posts: 9984
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Sunny London
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

easyray wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Zico wrote:I stopped giving a shit about this after an argument with a British business owner who was aggressively certain that the EU controlled non-EU migration to the UK.

Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
I work in financial services in Central London with income over 3 times the UK average, and access to very good healthcare, own a property in Ealing in West London and my standard of living is a lot higher than EU and even Western EU so UK is surely better than the EU according to your logic eh?
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
Gospel wrote: Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
I work in financial services in Central London with income over 3 times the UK average, and access to very good healthcare, own a property in Ealing in West London and my standard of living is a lot higher than EU and even Western EU so UK is surely better than the EU according to your logic eh?
Perhaps if I was in you're position, I may think that; but I'm not and I don't.

I certainly wasn't in a well paid job over there, my wages were probably that of a manual semi-skilled worker, so I can not compare it to your position. Tell you what, why not ask Mr & Mrs average who are struggling on a minimum wage if they're happy with the wages, working hours and the health service in the UK as it is now, as they can probably give you a better idea of what they would prefer.
User avatar
Gospel
Posts: 14041
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: West of Londinium

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Gospel »

easyray wrote:I certainly wasn't in a well paid job over there, my wages were probably that of a manual semi-skilled worker, so I can not compare it to your position. Tell you what, why not ask Mr & Mrs average who are struggling on a minimum wage if they're happy with the wages, working hours and the health service in the UK as it is now, as they can probably give you a better idea of what they would prefer.
Those are the very same people you've shown nothing but contempt for - the people that voted leave.
User avatar
TranceNRG
Posts: 9984
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Sunny London
Contact:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

easyray wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
I work in financial services in Central London with income over 3 times the UK average, and access to very good healthcare, own a property in Ealing in West London and my standard of living is a lot higher than EU and even Western EU so UK is surely better than the EU according to your logic eh?
Perhaps if I was in you're position, I may think that; but I'm not and I don't.

I certainly wasn't in a well paid job over there, my wages were probably that of a manual semi-skilled worker, so I can not compare it to your position. Tell you what, why not ask Mr & Mrs average who are struggling on a minimum wage if they're happy with the wages, working hours and the health service in the UK as it is now, as they can probably give you a better idea of what they would prefer.
Sorry but do you honestly think it's all rosey in the EU? Are you suggesting if Mr and Mrs average suddenly moved to Europe, they would be better off?
Mr and Mrs average in the UK are probably doing better than Mr and Mrs average in the EU especially the eastern EU countries. Yes they are struggling but there are struggling people in every single country even the wealthiest countries like Germany and Scandinavian countries. It's a fact of life.
Mr and Mrs average in the UK were probably negatively impacted when lots of unskilled Eastern European migrants moved to their towns competing for the low paid jobs they were going for and these people did vote to leave in droves.

You based your assumption of EU being beneficial project for everyone based purely on your situation but I suspect the reality is different hence UK voted to leave the UK and there's Europe wide dislike for EU.
Last edited by TranceNRG on Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dr dre2
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

TranceNRG wrote:
easyray wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Gospel wrote:
Zico wrote:
Whatever happens happens and it will be nothing less than deserved for allowing too many people to be so misinformed as they are.
Lots of misinformed folk on all sides of this debate. Ignorance is bliss. I also seem to recall some YouGuv polls which rather suggested that the greater the knowledge of the EU the more likely the vote to Leave. I'll dig it out if I have time.
Please do. Having lived and worked in Germany, France and Spain during the last 30 years, as well as having relatives in Brussels, I consider myself to have good knowledge of the EU, and that experience has made me even more pro EU.
I guess you saw all the consecutive failed audits of EU in the last couple of decades and were enlightened...
No, but then I very rarely read the bullshit UK press (Private Eye excepted) so thereby never heard about it. All I knew was my standard of living was higher in the EU than in the UK, I had better health care, higher wages and shorter working hours. So my opinion was based on that.
I work in financial services in Central London with income over 3 times the UK average, and access to very good healthcare, own a property in Ealing in West London and my standard of living is a lot higher than EU and even Western EU so UK is surely better than the EU according to your logic eh?[/quote]

Not to mention that the UK is within the EU currently, and so by his logic must not have benefited from the EU to the extent that the other EU states he's mentioned. As in his opinion it lags behind them in terms of quality of life. Which raises the question, does it suit them but not us? Which renders his opinion on the matter subjective and irrelevant.
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

dr dre2 wrote:
Not to mention that the UK is within the EU currently, and so by his logic must not have benefited from the EU to the extent that the other EU states he's mentioned. As in his opinion it lags behind them in terms of quality of life. Which raises the question, does it suit them but not us? Which renders his opinion on the matter subjective and irrelevant.
I was talking about the late 70s' - mid 80s' when I worked there. Britain was not a part of the single market and my comparison was for then.
User avatar
dr dre2
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

easyray wrote:
dr dre2 wrote:
Not to mention that the UK is within the EU currently, and so by his logic must not have benefited from the EU to the extent that the other EU states he's mentioned. As in his opinion it lags behind them in terms of quality of life. Which raises the question, does it suit them but not us? Which renders his opinion on the matter subjective and irrelevant.
I was talking about the late 70s' - mid 80s' when I worked there. Britain was not a part of the single market and my comparison was for then.
So the era that was still affected by the tail end of the way of doing things after rebuilding after WW2. The unintended consequence of the social restructuring that got out of hand. The over regulated crap with government interference meating unionisation? Sounds closer to where the EU is today than the UK.

Germany took a different path, "the economic miracle". Where it deregulated. Which is close to what you experienced. We copied it in the late 80s and 90s. Where as the EU is heading the other way.

It's a different club to the one that helped us modernise. It's turned full circle.
User avatar
Mahoney
Posts: 4097
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Mahoney »

The UK is in the EU.
I like haggis
Posts: 5048
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by I like haggis »

Image

Special relationship at work here?
fisgard792
Posts: 4515
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

the easyray dude is confusing european culture with the eu. :lol:

it was not the eu, who introduced generally a more relaxed social lifestyle, with more integrated travel systems, and better weather climates

i would match the dude for spending time on the european mainland, (live in Catalonia), and still the clear majority of people i meet, are suspicious of the Brussels bureaucrats (except those in Brussels). Even France is apparently more eu sceptical than the UK.

i would take the probably contentious view that it should be mandatory that a second language is taught in UK schools though
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

I like haggis wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image
Special relationship at work here?
Tbf, if anyone thought we would get a special deal from the yanks, they were totally deluded. Every country in the world will know the UK is desperate to secure trade deals, and you can bet the bottom dollar that they will be looking to screw as much as they can from the UK. Remind me again how successful the recent trade (sic) delegation to India was?
User avatar
easyray
Posts: 3951
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Still at the end of the world

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by easyray »

fisgard792 wrote:the easyray dude is confusing european culture with the eu. :lol:

it was not the eu, who introduced generally a more relaxed social lifestyle, with more integrated travel systems, and better weather climates

i would match the dude for spending time on the european mainland, (live in Catalonia), and still the clear majority of people i meet, are suspicious of the Brussels bureaucrats (except those in Brussels). Even France is apparently more eu sceptical than the UK.

i would take the probably contentious view that it should be mandatory that a second language is taught in UK schools though
I am not confusing anything. No one has said the EU introduced better weather and integrated travel, that's you just being stupid. As for matching my time on the mainland, you may well do, I lived in Germany for around 10 years, France for around 3 and Spain/Gibralter about 3 as well. I have also worked in just about every European country at least once, and last year I spent over 6 months working in France and a few weeks in Italy. Funny, but all the engineers I dealt with there genuinely could not understand why the UK would want to leave the EU.

As for your contentious view about languages, I speak German, French & Spanish, some Swahili, Hebrew and Arabic and I'm currently learning Welsh. So I agree with you there.
User avatar
DragsterDriver
Posts: 24997
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Big Willi Style

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

I like haggis wrote:
Special relationship at work here?
Looks more like a fluff piece for Boris to insert himself at a higher level, or for farage to be the hero with his old mate trump.
Rugby2023
Posts: 12172
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rugby2023 »

easyray wrote:Tbf, if anyone thought we would get a special deal from the yanks, they were totally deluded. Every country in the world will know the UK is desperate to secure trade deals, and you can bet the bottom dollar that they will be looking to screw as much as they can from the UK. Remind me again how successful the recent trade (sic) delegation to India was?
A billion's worth of trade deals signed, an expected 1,300 jobs created and an agreement to develop the bilateral trade relationship moving forward? The Remain media here were trying to pour cold water on it from all angles, just as they're trying to do with a potential US-UK trade deal but unfortunately for them, they don't dictate reality.
Last edited by Rugby2023 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Adetroy
Posts: 1365
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Adetroy »

easyray wrote:
I like haggis wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image
Special relationship at work here?
Tbf, if anyone thought we would get a special deal from the yanks, they were totally deluded. Every country in the world will know the UK is desperate to secure trade deals, and you can bet the bottom dollar that they will be looking to screw as much as they can from the UK. Remind me again how successful the recent trade (sic) delegation to India was?
This guy invested huge sums of money in buying up a large part of the bank of Ireland at the height of the financial crisis. He made a killing and there can be no doubt that he is a hard-core capitalist. But it is also true he turned away impressed by the Irish economy and the resilience of the Irish people and probably does not have the same jandiced view of the European Union and the euro zone that others might expect him to have. His advice to the Cypriots it's about taking there chance is quite typical of him and there is no sentiment involved, despite the claims that he is an Anglophile.
Silver
Posts: 9980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

easyray wrote:
fisgard792 wrote:the easyray dude is confusing european culture with the eu. :lol:

it was not the eu, who introduced generally a more relaxed social lifestyle, with more integrated travel systems, and better weather climates

i would match the dude for spending time on the european mainland, (live in Catalonia), and still the clear majority of people i meet, are suspicious of the Brussels bureaucrats (except those in Brussels). Even France is apparently more eu sceptical than the UK.

i would take the probably contentious view that it should be mandatory that a second language is taught in UK schools though
I am not confusing anything. No one has said the EU introduced better weather and integrated travel, that's you just being stupid. As for matching my time on the mainland, you may well do, I lived in Germany for around 10 years, France for around 3 and Spain/Gibralter about 3 as well. I have also worked in just about every European country at least once, and last year I spent over 6 months working in France and a few weeks in Italy. Funny, but all the engineers I dealt with there genuinely could not understand why the UK would want to leave the EU.

As for your contentious view about languages, I speak German, French & Spanish, some Swahili, Hebrew and Arabic and I'm currently learning Welsh. So I agree with you there.
Maybe because they are not smart enough to understand the issues involved. The UK wants free trade with the EU (or preferable sovereign nation states as they will be economically stronger). They do not want a political union with other countries where the elected MP's have almost no real power.

So we want to keep democracy and the UK as a sovereign nation. Other countries this might not be as important. They might be willing to throw it away and democracy with it. Although I think when they wake up and stop believing the lies and misinformation that the EU is built on the resistance to the EU will grow quickly. As it seems to be now.
User avatar
The Man Without Fear
Posts: 11126
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: The centre of The Horrendous Space Kablooie!

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by The Man Without Fear »

Rug fit for a King
Heh.
User avatar
DragsterDriver
Posts: 24997
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Big Willi Style

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

In real life people seem to have lost interest in brexit, i guess it will pick up when article 50 is served.
User avatar
Petej
Posts: 4506
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Monmouthshire

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Petej »

Silver wrote:
easyray wrote:
fisgard792 wrote:the easyray dude is confusing european culture with the eu. :lol:

it was not the eu, who introduced generally a more relaxed social lifestyle, with more integrated travel systems, and better weather climates

i would match the dude for spending time on the european mainland, (live in Catalonia), and still the clear majority of people i meet, are suspicious of the Brussels bureaucrats (except those in Brussels). Even France is apparently more eu sceptical than the UK.

i would take the probably contentious view that it should be mandatory that a second language is taught in UK schools though
I am not confusing anything. No one has said the EU introduced better weather and integrated travel, that's you just being stupid. As for matching my time on the mainland, you may well do, I lived in Germany for around 10 years, France for around 3 and Spain/Gibralter about 3 as well. I have also worked in just about every European country at least once, and last year I spent over 6 months working in France and a few weeks in Italy. Funny, but all the engineers I dealt with there genuinely could not understand why the UK would want to leave the EU.

As for your contentious view about languages, I speak German, French & Spanish, some Swahili, Hebrew and Arabic and I'm currently learning Welsh. So I agree with you there.
Maybe because they are not smart enough to understand the issues involved. The UK wants free trade with the EU (or preferable sovereign nation states as they will be economically stronger). They do not want a political union with other countries where the elected MP's have almost no real power.

So we want to keep democracy and the UK as a sovereign nation. Other countries this might not be as important. They might be willing to throw it away and democracy with it. Although I think when they wake up and stop believing the lies and misinformation that the EU is built on the resistance to the EU will grow quickly. As it seems to be now.
Very democratic - House of Lords, Monarchy, 1st past the post.
Silver
Posts: 9980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

Petej wrote:
Silver wrote:
easyray wrote:
fisgard792 wrote:the easyray dude is confusing european culture with the eu. :lol:

it was not the eu, who introduced generally a more relaxed social lifestyle, with more integrated travel systems, and better weather climates

i would match the dude for spending time on the european mainland, (live in Catalonia), and still the clear majority of people i meet, are suspicious of the Brussels bureaucrats (except those in Brussels). Even France is apparently more eu sceptical than the UK.

i would take the probably contentious view that it should be mandatory that a second language is taught in UK schools though
I am not confusing anything. No one has said the EU introduced better weather and integrated travel, that's you just being stupid. As for matching my time on the mainland, you may well do, I lived in Germany for around 10 years, France for around 3 and Spain/Gibralter about 3 as well. I have also worked in just about every European country at least once, and last year I spent over 6 months working in France and a few weeks in Italy. Funny, but all the engineers I dealt with there genuinely could not understand why the UK would want to leave the EU.

As for your contentious view about languages, I speak German, French & Spanish, some Swahili, Hebrew and Arabic and I'm currently learning Welsh. So I agree with you there.
Maybe because they are not smart enough to understand the issues involved. The UK wants free trade with the EU (or preferable sovereign nation states as they will be economically stronger). They do not want a political union with other countries where the elected MP's have almost no real power.

So we want to keep democracy and the UK as a sovereign nation. Other countries this might not be as important. They might be willing to throw it away and democracy with it. Although I think when they wake up and stop believing the lies and misinformation that the EU is built on the resistance to the EU will grow quickly. As it seems to be now.
Very democratic - House of Lords, Monarchy, 1st past the post.
The public are happy to continue with FPTP at this point. And the real power rests with the elected MPs >>> Govt not the HoLs or Queen. Its almost the exact opposite with the EU. The appointed Commission has the real power. The elected MEPs have almost none.
Locked