OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

All things Rugby

Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

User avatar
Tony Blair's Therapist
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tony Blair's Therapist »

Chuckles1188 wrote:You don't think what happens in the US gets a disproportionate degree of attention and emotional investment in the rest of the world? I certainly do. Same reason why most people can name their nation's leader but not their local representative despite the latter being more likely to be important and relevant to their lives than the former
No, of course you're right. But in this case, it's not only disproportionate coverage, it's also moral opprobrium about something that doesn't attract similar disapproval when other countries do something similar.

I think it's simply Trump, and the global consensus that he's a bad egg and therefore anything he does is to be deprecated ..

Anyway, not really a big enough deal to derail the thread. I was just curious what other people thought.
User avatar
Chuckles1188
Posts: 40610
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 am
Location: Joint No. 3 to Cyprus

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Chuckles1188 »

I'm not saying it's got nothing to do with reflexive opposition to anything even vaguely associated with Trump, I just think there's a perfectly compelling explanation available which barely involves him at all, and has the benefit of incorporating all the other things which people protest over when the US is involved and shrug when it's not
User avatar
Tony Blair's Therapist
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tony Blair's Therapist »

iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.
User avatar
Calculus
Posts: 3830
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Calculus »

Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.

Like justifying building the wall by calling Mexicans immigrants a bunch of criminals and rapist? BTW there has been negative net migration from Mexico to the USA since 2010.
Rugby2023
Posts: 12133
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rugby2023 »

Calculus wrote:Like justifying building the wall by calling Mexicans immigrants a bunch of criminals and rapist? BTW there has been negative net migration from Mexico to the USA since 2010.
That isn't exactly what he said to be fair, he assumed some were good people :lol:
C69
Posts: 39697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

A look at Trump’s most outrageous comments about Mexicans as he attempts damage control by visiting with country’s president

Tweet

email
Donald Trump has a lot of making up to do with Latinos and Latino-Americans.
Donald Trump has a lot of making up to do with Latinos and Latino-Americans. (DOMINICK REUTER/REUTERS)
BY
ADAM EDELMAN
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Wednesday, August 31, 2016, 4:46 PM
Too little too late, Donald.

If GOP nominee Donald Trump thinks his brief last-minute Mexico City sit-down with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto, and an expected pivot on immigration issues, are enough to placate the millions of Latinos and Latino-Americans he's already offended, he's likely mistaken.

Trump supporters in Florida hang a confederate flag over a railing at an August 2016 rally.
Trump supporters in Florida hang a confederate flag over a railing at an August 2016 rally. (EVAN VUCCI/AP)
Since day one of his campaign in June 2015, Trump has made racist lingo and proposals cornerstones of his campaign.

Here are eight of the most outrageous things Trump has said about Mexico, Mexicans and Mexican-Americans.

Trump takes last-minute trip to Mexico before immigration speech
NEW YORK, NY - MARCH 26: Donald Trump attends the Milwaukee Bucks vs New York Knicks game at Madison Square Garden on March 26, 2012 in New York City. (Photo by James Devaney/WireImage)
12 PHOTOS
VIEW GALLERY
Outrageous quotes from Donald Trump's presidential nomination speech
1) Donald Trump kicked off his campaign on June 16, 2015 with a speech in which he labeled immigrants from Mexico "rapists" and criminals. "When Mexico sends it people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people," he said.

2) A few weeks later, he accused Mexican immigrants of being "killers," too. "You have people come in and I'm not just saying Mexicans, I'm talking about people that are from all over, that are killers and rapists and they're coming to this country," he told CNN in June 2015.

Donald Trump kicked off his presidential campaign with a speech in which he labeled immigrants from Mexico "rapists" and criminals.
Donald Trump kicked off his presidential campaign with a speech in which he labeled immigrants from Mexico "rapists" and criminals. (BRIAN SNYDER/REUTERS)
3) Just months later, he went even further, claiming that Mexican officials actually "send the bad ones" to the U.S. "The Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning. They send the bad ones over because they don't want to pay for them. They don't want to take care of them," he said in August 2015.

4) In August 2015, he retweeted a crude remark aimed at then-presidential candidate Jeb Bush, whose wife is Mexican-American and who is fluent in Spanish. "So true. Jeb Bush is crazy, who cares that he speaks Mexican, this is America, English !!" the retweeted remarks said.

Clinton: Trump can't make up for Mexico insults with one visit
In August 2015, Trump retweeted a crude remark aimed at then-presidential candidate Jeb Bush (l.), whose wife (r.) is Mexican-American.
In August 2015, Trump retweeted a crude remark aimed at then-presidential candidate Jeb Bush (l.), whose wife (r.) is Mexican-American. (PAUL SANCYA/AP)
5) The same month, Trump booted from a press conference prominent Mexican-American journalist Jorge Ramos. During a Iowa press conference, Ramos was asking Trump about his immigration platform when the GOP nominee barked: "Sit down. Sit down ... Go back to Univision!" A suited security guard then marched him out of the room.

In August 2015, Trump booted from a press conference prominent Mexican-American journalist Jorge Ramos.
In August 2015, Trump booted from a press conference prominent Mexican-American journalist Jorge Ramos. (© BEN BREWER / REUTERS/REUTERS)
Trump rang in Cinco de Mayo this year by tweeting a cringeworthy remark in which he claimed the best Mexican food was made in Trump Tower.
Trump rang in Cinco de Mayo this year by tweeting a cringeworthy remark in which he claimed the best Mexican food was made in Trump Tower. (@REALDONALDTRUMP VIA TWITTER)
6) Trump rang in Cinco de Mayo this year by tweeting a cringeworthy remark in which he claimed the best Mexican food was made in Trump Tower. "Happy #CincoDeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!" Trump declared in a tweet that also featured a photo of him grinning over his meal.

7) In June 2016, Trump suggested that a federal judge presiding over a fraud cases against Trump University wouldn't be able be fair because of his "Mexican heritage." "He's a Mexican," Trump told CNN of U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel. "We're building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings — rulings that people can't even believe." "I'm building a wall," Trump said. "It's an inherent conflict of interest." Curiel, who was born in Indiana, refused to dismiss a pair of civil lawsuits that allege Trump University tricked students into paying tens of thousands of dollars to learn the secrets of the real-estate mogul's success.

In June 2016, Trump suggested that federal Judge Gonzalo Curiel could not preside over a fraud cases against Trump University because of his "Mexican heritage."
In June 2016, Trump suggested that federal Judge Gonzalo Curiel could not preside over a fraud cases against Trump University because of his "Mexican heritage." (YOUTUBE)
8) Crowds at his rallies, for the last 16 months have chanted "Build the Wall," a rallying cry of thinly veiled racism.
User avatar
JM2K6
Posts: 37186
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by JM2K6 »

Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.
Letting him get away with horrible shit because there's even more horrible stuff he's doing isn't a good play.
User avatar
dr dre2
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

Rugby2023 wrote:
Calculus wrote:Like justifying building the wall by calling Mexicans immigrants a bunch of criminals and rapist? BTW there has been negative net migration from Mexico to the USA since 2010.
That isn't exactly what he said to be fair, he assumed some were good people :lol:
Are we now pretending Mexico is not a crime filled, corrupt shit hole in parts. While not all Mexicans are bad or even anywhere near it. There are a lot of bad people. Those people do traffic drugs and people across. It's a good idea to control that as best you can. When did vetting the people who can come in become racist? It just suits the narrative so they will play on it disingenuously.
ukjim
Posts: 2067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by ukjim »

camroc1 wrote:Irish men serving in a continental European army is not exactly a new idea. After all we have had
The Irish Brigade (France): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_(France)

The Irish Regiments in the Spanish Army : Regiment of Hibernia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regiment_of_Hibernia

AS well as notable contributions to the Austrian and other armies : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_military_diaspora

Remember Fontenoy !

dont forget these great lads
User avatar
Rocketz
Posts: 4582
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: United States of Europe

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rocketz »

Trumps wall is trumps wall but saying the Mexicans will pay for it was stupid.

Also just putting this picture up as there seems to a serious and threatening trend of revisionism growing on this thread. We can disagree on opinions but we have to agree on facts.

Image
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

Given how some posters are resorting to crude stereotypes.
According to the White House Office of the Press Secretary, a recent Executive Order on Border Security and Immigration Enforcement was intended to address the issue of “significant increase in violent crime” due to immigration driven by “transnational criminal organizations.” These claims directly contradict the results of academic work on immigration and crime, and a recent study published in the Journal of Ethnicity in Criminal Justice reinforces that. It shows that immigration is not linked to increases in crime—in fact, this study suggests it's linked to reductions in certain types of crimes.

This study builds on previous findings on arrests and criminal offenses. That previous data showed that foreign-born residents of the US were less likely to commit crimes than native-born Americans. The new study looked at 200 major metropolitan areas as defined by the US Census Bureau. The researchers then used Census data and FBI crime reporting data from 1970-2010 to look at trends for these regions.

The authors were interested in increases in crimes that might be attributable to an influx of immigrants who decreased economic opportunities or ended up in jobs that might otherwise have gone to local-born residents. To that end, they looked at violent crimes and property crimes, including rates of murder, non-negligent manslaughter, aggravated assault, robbery, burglary, and larceny.

Looking across various times and locations, the researchers saw that communities undergoing a demographic change due to immigration clearly don’t experience significant increases in crime. In fact, even though these communities may feel like they were in flux due to population changes, crime was either stable or declined in communities that were incorporating many immigrants.

The most striking finding comes from the authors’ models for violent crime, murder, and robbery. The authors found that in three out of four statistical models, an increase in the percentage of foreign-born residents was significantly associated with decreases in these three types of crimes. In other words, when immigrants went up, violent crime went down. For example, rates of property crimes declined more rapidly in cities with high percentages of foreign-born residents than they did in cities with low percentages of foreign-born residents.

In summarizing this paper’s results, the lead author, Robert Adelman (associate professor of sociology at University at Buffalo) said, “the empirical evidence in this study and other related research shows little support for the notion that more immigrants lead to more crime.” Indeed, this study appears to show that for the last quarter of the 20th century and the early portion of the 21st century, the presence of immigrants was consistently associated with drops in violent and property crimes in major US cities.
https://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2017/ ... ime-rates/
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

JM2K6 wrote:
Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.
Letting him get away with horrible shit because there's even more horrible stuff he's doing isn't a good play.

No attacking him in a hyperbolic way for things which aren't bad or controversial because it is him , weaken attacks when things are actually horrible or dangerous so is counterproductive .
Santa
Posts: 11120
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:56 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Santa »

bimboman wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.
Letting him get away with horrible shit because there's even more horrible stuff he's doing isn't a good play.

No attacking him in a hyperbolic way for things which aren't bad or controversial because it is him , weaken attacks when things are actually horrible or dangerous so is counterproductive .
Agree. It's hard to think of much that he's done since this whole thing started that is genuinely horrible. The immigration EO from a certain perspective and the pussy grabbing thing if he actually did it stand out. What else is there?
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

Santa wrote:
bimboman wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Tony Blair's Therapist wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:I'll be honest when I say that didn't annoy me at all.

I was more annoyed when he went to ban muslim countries who never attacked the US while still allowing nationals from Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco etc to enter. These countries have the highest participation in IS and Al Qaeda.

It was a cheap shot and quite cowardly.
I agree. I think it would be better if the MSM/world opinion stuck to criticising him for the stuff that is truly morally reprehensible. If he's blanket condemned for every last thing, he's not going to take much notice.
Letting him get away with horrible shit because there's even more horrible stuff he's doing isn't a good play.

No attacking him in a hyperbolic way for things which aren't bad or controversial because it is him , weaken attacks when things are actually horrible or dangerous so is counterproductive .
Agree. It's hard to think of much that he's done since this whole thing started that is genuinely horrible. The immigration EO from a certain perspective and the pussy grabbing thing if he actually did it stand out. What else is there?
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
jorwar
Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by jorwar »

The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
Santa
Posts: 11120
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:56 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Santa »

I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
I put attacking the judiciary in the 'stupid' basket. I put attacking the press in the 'who cares' basket. I do that on the basis that the press can defend themselves but the judiciary can't by convention. I also think the press are culpable in the ongoing unpleasantness because they spend too much time covering the unpleasantness. They should let it go and stick to proper reporting. I also have some concerns about the balance of their analysis and commentary but I'm not as far down that path as some.
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?
Rugby2023
Posts: 12133
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rugby2023 »

jorwar wrote:The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
x( Dubya's pet poodle was really in charge wasn't he...to the tune of over half a million dead based on a lie. Still, as long as he got to go on his lucrative speaking tour, stay with his beloved celebrities and earn millions for Cherie then it was all worth it.
jorwar
Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by jorwar »

Rugby2023 wrote:
jorwar wrote:The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
x( Dubya's pet poodle was really in charge wasn't he...to the tune of over a million dead based on a lie. Still, as long as he got to go on his lucrative speaking tour, stay with his beloved celebrities and earn millions for Cherie then it was all worth it.
There's no such thing as a lie- in the post truth, alternative fact, fake news era.
kevinm500
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Chocolateland

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by kevinm500 »

Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?
You don't really need that last sentence Sefton do you?

I think that the reason some people are trying to ignore the attack on the judiciary is the feeling that perhaps the judiciary have been guilty of dabbling in a bit of politics in their opposition to the EO. I agree that we should have an independent judiciary and it should not be attacked, but it is not a carte Blanche license for them to start getting political.
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?

The press are free and have said exactly what they've wanted including massive amounts of opinion dressed as facts, has Trump done anything to change their freedoms ? No. If they won't respect the executive they can't really be expected to get respect back.
C69
Posts: 39697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

kevinm500 wrote:
Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?
You don't really need that last sentence Sefton do you?

I think that the reason some people are trying to ignore the attack on the judiciary is the feeling that perhaps the judiciary have been guilty of dabbling in a bit of politics in their opposition to the EO. I agree that we should have an independent judiciary and it should not be attacked, but it is not a carte Blanche license for them to start getting political.
When have they been dabbling in politics?
User avatar
Petej
Posts: 4470
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Monmouthshire

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Petej »

jorwar wrote:The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
It was amusing to see that many of those who call Blair a war criminal often admire the likes Cameron, Johnson, IDS and May (who all voted for the war in Iraq) while disliking Corbyn and Diane Abbot who voted against it. Blair does raise valid points that essentially we could spend a lot of money on something that actually makes us worse off and that with very little opposition and everyone distracted by Brexit the Tories have the freedom to trash whatever they want.
kevinm500
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Chocolateland

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by kevinm500 »

c69 wrote:
kevinm500 wrote:
Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?
You don't really need that last sentence Sefton do you?



I think that the reason some people are trying to ignore the attack on the judiciary is the feeling that perhaps the judiciary have been guilty of dabbling in a bit of politics in their opposition to the EO. I agree that we should have an independent judiciary and it should not be attacked, but it is not a carte Blanche license for them to start getting political.
When have they been dabbling in politics?
Sorry, I thought I alluded to that. Specifically I mean the judgements handed down in opposition to the EO relating to immigration from selected countries. I would posit that a liberal judiciary would be uncomfortable with this EO and look to overturn it if they got the chance. Further I would suggest that this sort of activism in the judiciary would constitute politics as the original order was a political one.
kevinm500
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Chocolateland

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by kevinm500 »

Petej wrote:
jorwar wrote:The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
It was amusing to see that many of those who call Blair a war criminal often admire the likes Cameron, Johnson, IDS and May (who all voted for the war in Iraq) while disliking Corbyn and Diane Abbot who voted against it. Blair does raise valid points that essentially we could spend a lot of money on something that actually makes us worse off and that with very little opposition and everyone distracted by Brexit the Tories have the freedom to trash whatever they want.
Indeed, it is the fear of the left that Brexit provides a platform for the Tories to achieve a new social settlement in the UK. Which it does. Personally, I am greatly relieved that thus arrived with the Tories in power. I dread to think what the settlement would look like if Corbyn were in charge.
C69
Posts: 39697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

Surely British judges making decisions is what you want?
Well unless they make a ruling counter to your viewpoint then they are "dabbling in a bit of politics". If they had ruled the other way then they wouldn't have been dabbling in politics?
kevinm500
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Chocolateland

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by kevinm500 »

c69 wrote:Surely British judges making decisions is what you want?
Well unless they make a ruling counter to your viewpoint then they are "dabbling in a bit of politics". If they had ruled the other way then they wouldn't have been dabbling in politics?
Actually, no, I have no interest in British judges being involved in US decisions. I think it a little bit of a stretch for you to get that from my posts.

I think we can probably agree, that if the judges ruled in a manner contrary to their own prejudices, we could safely conclude they acted fairly. As soon as judgements start to play into those prejudices they will be open to the accusation?

If they consistently rule to those prejudices, then the suspicion becomes greater.

I don't think we have to look at the individual case to agree the above do we?
Rugby2023
Posts: 12133
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Rugby2023 »

jorwar wrote:There's no such thing as a lie- in the post truth, alternative fact, fake news era.
Well then you had best rise up against Brexit jorwar, Tony Blair has said Article 50 could be launched in 45 minutes.
Last edited by Rugby2023 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
fisgard792
Posts: 4515
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

Rugby2023 wrote:
jorwar wrote:The same sort of thing happens to Blair. What a monster.

"It is unfortunate that Mr Blair embodies the stereotype on his side of the debate. Few people conform so neatly to the image of a globe-trotting metropolitan. That makes him a problematic messenger for a putative pro-European insurgency, even before all the other baggage of his decade in power is weighed. Yet, when Mr Blair speaks, audiences listen – and on this occasion he had something of substance to say. His was a well-reasoned case made with judicious authority – and by framing the argument between supporters of Brexit “at all costs” and the rest, he showed a familiar skill for appealing to all those, leavers as well as remainers in this case, who abhor the obsessive or fanatical approach. That in itself is worth appreciating in a week when the US president degraded his office and alarmed audiences in a rambling press conference marked by petulant incoherence and wilful ignorance. Mr Blair reminds us what it was like to have grown-ups in charge. Whether he can still be effective in advancing a cause is different. He is entitled to try. No one else is making the pro-European case with much impact."
x( Dubya's pet poodle was really in charge wasn't he...to the tune of over half a million dead based on a lie. Still, as long as he got to go on his lucrative speaking tour, stay with his beloved celebrities and earn millions for Cherie then it was all worth it.
How many millions did matrix chambers make out the iraq war. he didnt lie for the war for cherie, but it was obscene conflict of interest for her company to profit so much from it
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?

The press are free and have said exactly what they've wanted including massive amounts of opinion dressed as facts, has Trump done anything to change their freedoms ? No. If they won't respect the executive they can't really be expected to get respect back.
First off that is a laughably stupid statement, it's the job of the press to hold the other estates to account, not show them respect.

If you can't see the difference in what Trump has been trying to do to delegitimise the press and what any other president has done then there is no talking to you because we're not talking nuance here, it is bloody blatant.
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

kevinm500 wrote:
c69 wrote: When have they been dabbling in politics?
Sorry, I thought I alluded to that. Specifically I mean the judgements handed down in opposition to the EO relating to immigration from selected countries. I would posit that a liberal judiciary would be uncomfortable with this EO and look to overturn it if they got the chance. Further I would suggest that this sort of activism in the judiciary would constitute politics as the original order was a political one.
Have you checked the political allegiances of these judges, if they were Bush appointees would that not undermine your preconception?
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'd say attacking the judiciary and the press is pretty horrible in any state that wishes to maintain a separation of power.
Why conflate the media and its rights with the obvious issue on the judiciary. That's exactly what I meant .
Because a free press and a free judiciary are both recognised estates in a free society and attempting to undermine or delegitimise either of them is dangerous, which is exactly what Trump has been trying to do.

Is that simple enough for even you to understand?

The press are free and have said exactly what they've wanted including massive amounts of opinion dressed as facts, has Trump done anything to change their freedoms ? No. If they won't respect the executive they can't really be expected to get respect back.
First off that is a laughably stupid statement, it's the job of the press to hold the other estates to account, not show them respect.

If you can't see the difference in what Trump has been trying to do to delegitimise the press and what any other president has done then there is no talking to you because we're not talking nuance here, it is bloody blatant.
That isn't stupid if you'd paid any attention to the white house press room in the past 50'years, the questions are addressed to "Mr President" , the faux respect from both sides was what kept the system going.


And if you can't see what the press has been doing to delegitimise the Executive I'd argue the same. There's no trust and respect from both sides.

The media are also in a massive hissy fit regarding the direct media contact Trump is making being left to "interpret" a tweet rather than have an "inside" story. Regardless of trump madness the game has changed and no administration in future will be the same in its regard to the media.
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

Of course there's no respect for Trump, the man is an out and out liar and has liars facing the press every day, the press is there to hold him to account, that is their job.

Trump has attempted to undermine the mainstream press from day one, no other president has done this, you apparently feel this is ok and that it is a hissy fit for the press to attempt to hold him to account for his lies, or 'alternative facts', and the lies of his press team and advisors.
User avatar
dr dre2
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

Rugby2023 wrote:
jorwar wrote:There's no such thing as a lie- in the post truth, alternative fact, fake news era.
Well then you had best rise up against Brexit jorwar, Tony Blair has said Article 50 could be launched in 45 minutes.
And he's spoken about the fee for leaving as £60bn on three occasions like it's separate money and then let it ride when it's reported as £180bn. The man was so full of spin, it's contributed greatly to the want for straight talking populism with simple answers. So you can add to the list that Tony Blair has helped to escalate in this era by his actions in the last. Islamic terror, Austerity, Immigration, Mistrust of politicians = POPULISM.
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Sefton wrote:Of course there's no respect for Trump, the man is an out and out liar and has liars facing the press every day, the press is there to hold him to account, that is their job.

Trump has attempted to undermine the mainstream press from day one, no other president has done this, you apparently feel this is ok and that it is a hissy fit for the press to attempt to hold him to account for his lies, or 'alternative facts', and the lies of his press team and advisors.

You've just made my point, thank you. And whether I think it is ok or not the behaviour change from the press is making it worse for them and the country not better. Stop playing e game by all means but then don't blame the other player. It's also totally different from an independent judiciary as you have also explained.
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:Of course there's no respect for Trump, the man is an out and out liar and has liars facing the press every day, the press is there to hold him to account, that is their job.

Trump has attempted to undermine the mainstream press from day one, no other president has done this, you apparently feel this is ok and that it is a hissy fit for the press to attempt to hold him to account for his lies, or 'alternative facts', and the lies of his press team and advisors.

You've just made my point, thank you. And whether I think it is ok or not the behaviour change from the press is making it worse for them and the country not better. Stop playing e game by all means but then don't blame the other player. It's also totally different from an independent judiciary as you have also explained.
You've explained nothing there than unilaterally declare your self the winner.
bimboman
Posts: 66505
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:Of course there's no respect for Trump, the man is an out and out liar and has liars facing the press every day, the press is there to hold him to account, that is their job.

Trump has attempted to undermine the mainstream press from day one, no other president has done this, you apparently feel this is ok and that it is a hissy fit for the press to attempt to hold him to account for his lies, or 'alternative facts', and the lies of his press team and advisors.

You've just made my point, thank you. And whether I think it is ok or not the behaviour change from the press is making it worse for them and the country not better. Stop playing e game by all means but then don't blame the other player. It's also totally different from an independent judiciary as you have also explained.
You've explained nothing there than unilaterally declare your self the winner.

"Of course there's no respect for trump"
C69
Posts: 39697
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

Dear God seriously?
User avatar
dr dre2
Posts: 5187
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by dr dre2 »

Sefton wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sefton wrote:Of course there's no respect for Trump, the man is an out and out liar and has liars facing the press every day, the press is there to hold him to account, that is their job.

Trump has attempted to undermine the mainstream press from day one, no other president has done this, you apparently feel this is ok and that it is a hissy fit for the press to attempt to hold him to account for his lies, or 'alternative facts', and the lies of his press team and advisors.

You've just made my point, thank you. And whether I think it is ok or not the behaviour change from the press is making it worse for them and the country not better. Stop playing e game by all means but then don't blame the other player. It's also totally different from an independent judiciary as you have also explained.
You've explained nothing there than unilaterally declare your self the winner.
The press is de-legitimising itself, it's desperately using every dodgy tactic it has to cry wolf at every opportunity, because of it's fundamental dislike for Trump. He's entitled to criticise that and it's actually makes his position stronger because they have cried wolf when there is no wolf so often people are tuning out. They are also actually feeling sorry for what he has to put up with & willing him to combat it.
Locked