OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

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TranceNRG
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

SamShark wrote:This interviewer on Sunday politics is a pain in the arse - tone it down FFS.

Grayling's argument that we will get what we want after leaving doesnt wash with me. I fully accept that nobody is going to spite theselves but they wont give us an easy ride and will screw us if possible.

The whole "out" argument is that the European bureaucrats wont let us do what we want now. Why will they let us do what we want when we've just taken a dump on their EU.
Well the biggest argument is they have no control over the laws passed in the UK whereas at the moment EU laws override them?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Saint »

bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.

Mind you I'm guessing a lot on here are probably employers so probably wasting my time with that point.
Last edited by iarmhiman on Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those who don't qualify for permanent residency/citizenship will probably stay illegally :o
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

TranceNRG wrote:
Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those who don't qualify for permanent residency/citizenship will probably stay illegally :o
You could see tens of thousands of Brits looking for Spanish citizenship. They would get it as well as the Spanish economy would need their cash.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

EU needs a brexit. Absolutely.

This will lead to a shock to EU thinking heads.

And probably will lead to a dissolution of EU as we actually know.

Back to the treaty of Rome, back to the principles of the seven founding fathers of European Union.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

Alvise Martinengo wrote:EU needs a brexit. Absolutely.

This will lead to a shock to EU thinking heads.

And probably will lead to a dissolution of EU as we actually know.

Back to the treaty of Rome, back to the principles of the seven founding fathers of European Union.
I tend to agree with you. I think EU is heading down the wrong path and I don't like a lot of things about the 'EU project'. The world has changed a lot since those treaties were made. EU needs to change fundamentally but I don't think it will ever happen unless a powerful nation leaves. But leaving the EU could be bad for the UK (and obviously the EU itself)
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those living in Spain as part of a legal treaty would still be able to even if the treaty is changed. This is part of international law
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

SamShark wrote:This interviewer on Sunday politics is a pain in the arse - tone it down FFS.

Grayling's argument that we will get what we want after leaving doesnt wash with me. I fully accept that nobody is going to spite theselves but they wont give us an easy ride and will screw us if possible.

The whole "out" argument is that the European bureaucrats wont let us do what we want now
. Why will they let us do what we want when we've just taken a dump on their EU.
nope, thats a disingenuous view,

lets take another view, going forwards, how can you be sure that ECJ, ECHR judgements and directives will not have an adverse effect on the uk. mrs blair has made a frickin fortune out of defending some dodgy clients under the protection of the ECHR
do you believe for example that the criminal intelligence agencies will suddenly stop communicating with each other, cut their noses off, make themselves less secure if we vote leave
its really not about walking away from europe at all, what do you want more to do other than to trade, what else is there?
migration really isnt a problem if you have a job to go to, in principle, why is it unreasonable for any country to reject an economic migrant who hasnt a job to go to
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

Silver wrote:
Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those living in Spain as part of a legal treaty would still be able to even if the treaty is changed. This is part of international law
They won't have a problem staying there. It will be access to the social systems and healthcare especially in retirement age.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

TranceNRG wrote:
Alvise Martinengo wrote:EU needs a brexit. Absolutely.

This will lead to a shock to EU thinking heads.

And probably will lead to a dissolution of EU as we actually know.

Back to the treaty of Rome, back to the principles of the seven founding fathers of European Union.
I tend to agree with you. I think EU is heading down the wrong path and I don't like a lot of things about the 'EU project'. The world has changed a lot since those treaties were made. EU needs to change fundamentally but I don't think it will ever happen unless a powerful nation leaves. But leaving the EU could be bad for the UK (and obviously the EU itself)
Why would it be . The Uk could join the EEA. I doubt if much would change economically for at least 5-10 years. The only issue is does the Uk want to become a sovereign independent nation once again. With the people back in control as far as possible rather than an appointed ruling elite.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

iarmhiman wrote:
Silver wrote:
Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those living in Spain as part of a legal treaty would still be able to even if the treaty is changed. This is part of international law
They won't have a problem staying there. It will be access to the social systems and healthcare especially in retirement age.
They will retain all right they had under the old treaty
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

iarmhiman wrote:I'll tell you who will be delighted in the event of a Brexit: Vladimir Putin.

It will kick start the break up of the European union and weaken Europe, something that has been a strategic policy of the Russians second to splitting good relations between USA and Europe.
well it stopped the annexing of ukraine already, er, except it hasnt
indeed being in the eu may well weaken nato
nato allows a military union with foreign policy individual to each nation, eu policy is a military union under one policy, the eu's
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by ID2 »

iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.

Mind you I'm guessing a lot on here are probably employers so probably wasting my time with that point.
What about UKIP?

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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Saint »

Can people please stop talking about the ECHR as if that's on the table here? The ECHR has zip to do with the EU, and whether we vote for Brexit or not we will remain subject to the ECHR unless and until we withdraw from the Council of Europe
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SaintK »

......and so the lies and dissembling gather pace.
From the wretched Ian Duncan-Smith
Staying in the EU will make the UK more vulnerable to Paris-style terrorist attacks, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has told the BBC.
He was oner of John Major's bastards back in the day. Nothing changed there then?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

ID2 wrote: What about UKIP?
Well, good question.

If this brexit thing will work, UKIP commitment has done. British borders are safe

And Nigel has to find a job, likely.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

Will Jeremy Corbyn will be able to sway anyone on the fence to the In camp? :twisted:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

I tend to agree with you. I think EU is heading down the wrong path and I don't like a lot of things about the 'EU project'. The world has changed a lot since those treaties were made.
This is the foundation of Gove's argument, which is compelling if you read and believe it (see below).

I don't really know anyone who thinks the EU is perfect, but my instinct says stay and I trust the people/parties/commentators who want to stay more than those that don't.
For weeks now I have been wrestling with the most difficult decision of my political life. But taking difficult decisions is what politicians are paid to do. No-one is forced to stand for Parliament, no-one is compelled to become a minister. If you take on those roles, which are great privileges, you also take on big responsibilities.

I was encouraged to stand for Parliament by David Cameron and he has given me the opportunity to serve in what I believe is a great, reforming Government. I think he is an outstanding Prime Minister. There is, as far as I can see, only one significant issue on which we have differed.

And that is the future of the UK in the European Union.

It pains me to have to disagree with the Prime Minister on any issue. My instinct is to support him through good times and bad.

But I cannot duck the choice which the Prime Minister has given every one of us. In a few months time we will all have the opportunity to decide whether Britain should stay in the European Union or leave. I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU. And if, at this moment of decision, I didn’t say what I believe I would not be true to my convictions or my country.

I don’t want to take anything away from the Prime Minister’s dedicated efforts to get a better deal for Britain. He has negotiated with courage and tenacity. But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling.

The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people. As a result of their efforts we developed, and exported to nations like the US, India, Canada and Australia a system of democratic self-government which has brought prosperity and peace to millions.

Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

Far from providing security in an uncertain world, the EU’s policies have become a source of instability and insecurity. Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria. The former head of Interpol says the EU’s internal borders policy is “like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe” and Scandinavian nations which once prided themselves on their openness are now turning in on themselves. All of these factors, combined with popular anger at the lack of political accountability, has encouraged extremism, to the extent that far-right parties are stronger across the continent than at any time since the 1930s.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time. It was developed in the 1950s and 1960s and like other institutions which seemed modern then, from tower blocks to telexes, it is now hopelessly out of date. The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation. It is an analogue union in a digital age.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area. EU rules dictate everything from the maximum size of containers in which olive oil may be sold (five litres) to the distance houses have to be from heathland to prevent cats chasing birds (five kilometres).

Individually these rules may be comical. Collectively, and there are tens of thousands of them, they are inimical to creativity, growth and progress. Rules like the EU clinical trials directive have slowed down the creation of new drugs to cure terrible diseases and ECJ judgements on data protection issues hobble the growth of internet companies. As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.

It is hard to overstate the degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers’ ability to do the things they were elected to do, or to use their judgment about the right course of action for the people of this country. I have long had concerns about our membership of the EU but the experience of Government has only deepened my conviction that we need change. Every single day, every single minister is told: ‘Yes Minister, I understand, but I’m afraid that’s against EU rules’. I know it. My colleagues in government know it. And the British people ought to know it too: your government is not, ultimately, in control in hundreds of areas that matter.

But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative to the path the EU is going down. We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.

We can take back the billions we give to the EU, the money which is squandered on grand parliamentary buildings and bureaucratic follies, and invest it in science and technology, schools and apprenticeships. We can get rid of the regulations which big business uses to crush competition and instead support new start-up businesses and creative talent. We can forge trade deals and partnerships with nations across the globe, helping developing countries to grow and benefiting from faster and better access to new markets.

We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel Prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country. Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest “soft power” and global influence of any state and a leadership role in NATO and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to leave an EU mired in the past and embrace a better future.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

As suggested by others, I think you should include a poll in the OP...
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Nobleman »

Silver wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
Silver wrote:
Saint wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is there's nothing inheritantly from our member ship that allows our Brits to live in Spain, plenty did before we joined he EU, as there are plenty of Brits living in Florida or Switzerland. There would possibly be a differant registration system, some taxes to pay for health insurance, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
My point is that the situation would change for them. Their automatic right to residency would disappear. They would have to apply for some kind of visa (in all likelihood)

The mechanism that currently allows them to live in Spain would dissapear
Those living in Spain as part of a legal treaty would still be able to even if the treaty is changed. This is part of international law
They won't have a problem staying there. It will be access to the social systems and healthcare especially in retirement age.
They will retain all right they had under the old treaty


That is not the case. The truth is the Brexit campaigners haven't got a clue how it will work. If post Brexit, the UK imposes visa restrictions on EU citizens coming to the UK, then the EU will almost certainly apply similar rules. Under the Schengen Agreement non EU citizens are restricted to 90 days out of 180 days unless a permanent residency card is issued. This would impact all UK citizens living in the EU.

If post Brexit the UK maintains the current open door policy to EU citizens, then what is the point of Brexit?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Poll added
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

SamShark wrote:Poll added

Today's quotes.

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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Are there any big blows that could still be landed and really change minds? A revelation somewhere?

It seems like the arguments are out there. Nobody will be offering any more sweeteners and on most issues the cases are being made/have been made.

Surely the interest in Boris, Gove et all will fade.

The biggest strength for the "out" campaign is the fact that Murdoch and the Daily Mail seemingly want us out.

The biggest strength for in is the fear of change perhaps?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Clive »

In or out will it really make much things change that much.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

SamShark wrote: The biggest strength for the "out" campaign is the fact that Murdoch and the Daily Mail seemingly want us out.
it's the other way round surely
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

A question I'd like to see asked to out campaigners, predominantly Govt ministers, is what laws they would like to change if they were out.

Although the decision is for eternity rather than a matter for the current Govt alone, are there some decisions that might sway people.

For instance health and safety laws, human rights, workers rights. Some see these as interfering and detrimental, some see them as good protection for citizens.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

Clive wrote:In or out will it really make much things change that much.
Hard to know really. Over the medium term Britain will have diminished input into the direction Europe is taking, German will have even more control than it already has. It would probably be the end of the EU as we currently know it. On the other had, Cameron taking them to the brink they force them to get their house in order. It depends on whether or not you believe in the idea of an integrated Europe, and ironically enough a majority of unionists do not.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by terryfinch »

The Out campaign has been holed below the waterline by having Farage and Galloway as the apparent leaders of their efforts. Two less trustworthy politicians it is hard to come up with.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

An out rally with Boris, Farage and Galloway would be 'interesting'.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

Saint wrote:Can people please stop talking about the ECHR as if that's on the table here? The ECHR has zip to do with the EU, and whether we vote for Brexit or not we will remain subject to the ECHR unless and until we withdraw from the Council of Europe

Exactly, what on earth was Gove wittering on about regarding things he wanted to do but were legally stopped by our EU membership?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by haunch »

Farage is a great bloke.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Strange times - Farage, Boris, Trump, Corbyn etc all considered credible leaders by some.

Not a great advert for the leadership that has got us to the situation where the above was possible, either.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by haunch »

Borris has been mayor for years, pretty unremarkabley, is he considered not credible?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

SamShark wrote:Strange times - Farage, Boris, Trump, Corbyn etc all considered credible leaders by some.

Not a great advert for the leadership that has got us to the situation where the above was possible, either.
:D He's got the charisma of a dead fish.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by unseenwork »

iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

haunch wrote:Borris has been mayor for years, pretty unremarkabley, is he considered not credible?
I think he's got the power to 'sway' more people on the fence than any of the other UK politicians mentioned. Farage is loathed by many and Corbyn is only supported by die hard labour fans.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.
Locked