Planet Rugby Forum

DAC2016 wrote:I think we need to understand why the left feel the need to be in a submissive position when it comes to their leadership. They are a real threat to humanity.

Says the man crying his eyes out because the government's not being allowed to ignore Parliament

paddyor wrote:

Dai another day wrote:A genuinely disgusting decision.

I genuinely despair.

If this goes how I expect it to go then there is no notion of democracy in the UK. Just a facade.

Nigel Farage saying this will provoke huge public anger - It will.

For me personally...well, I will never set foot in a polling station again.

Why is it so disgusting? It's the law. Basically, in a situation where a non binding referendum takes place, parliament has final say.

So why have a plebiscite wearing the clothes of a referendum in the first place?

This will end in tears. The question is: whose? But here's a hint.

The fact the UK citizens who actually voted Brexit do not comprise the totality of those eligible will count for fúckall to those who voted for Brexit in good faith. They will feel betrayed, and with good cause.

Should Parliament says Brexit: Yeah Nah, the Home Counties spivs and their middle-class provincial mates will of course snigger and sneer at folk with unfashionable accents. But when city centres start blazing merrily, and when personal safety becomes a pressing issue for Tarquin and Calliope Stoat-Felcher, the laughter will cease.

And I may have something diverting to watch on telly in the rugby off-season after all.

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:I don't think you've understood this at all.

Besides, a "fair democratic vote" is all well and good, but this country is not ruled by plebiscite and not ruled by referenda.

I don't think you have. If you can't see one side having the legitimate grievance then I'll leave it.

FFS, we're talking about the reactions. Remainers have a legitimate grievance - losing the vote doesn't change that.

So if you had won the vote to remain and we were taken out anyway you wouldn't be more upset and likely to react than if you lost the vote. No way.

Not in a way that would tear the country apart, no.

JM2K6 wrote: Not in a way that would tear the country apart, no.

We would be getting our country back

JM2K6 wrote:

DAC2016 wrote:I think we need to understand why the left feel the need to be in a submissive position when it comes to their leadership. They are a real threat to humanity.

Says the man crying his eyes out because the government's not being allowed to ignore Parliament

Hardly.

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:I don't think you've understood this at all.

Besides, a "fair democratic vote" is all well and good, but this country is not ruled by plebiscite and not ruled by referenda.

I don't think you have. If you can't see one side having the legitimate grievance then I'll leave it.

FFS, we're talking about the reactions. Remainers have a legitimate grievance - losing the vote doesn't change that.

So if you had won the vote to remain and we were taken out anyway you wouldn't be more upset and likely to react than if you lost the vote. No way.

No one has said or done anything to stop the UK from leaving. They've only said we need to follow a due process.

I'm a little surprised the ruling has gone the way it has, but I also think prior to triggering a50 we should be going via parliament anyway.

DAC2016 wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

DAC2016 wrote:I think we need to understand why the left feel the need to be in a submissive position when it comes to their leadership. They are a real threat to humanity.

Says the man crying his eyes out because the government's not being allowed to ignore Parliament

Hardly.

I was being charitable about your fascist desire to eliminate a large proportion of the country, champ.

JM2K6 wrote:

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:I don't think you've understood this at all.

Besides, a "fair democratic vote" is all well and good, but this country is not ruled by plebiscite and not ruled by referenda.

I don't think you have. If you can't see one side having the legitimate grievance then I'll leave it.

FFS, we're talking about the reactions. Remainers have a legitimate grievance - losing the vote doesn't change that.

Dai another day wrote:A genuinely disgusting decision.

I genuinely despair.

If this goes how I expect it to go then there is no notion of democracy in the UK. Just a facade.

Nigel Farage saying this will provoke huge public anger - It will.

For me personally...well, I will never set foot in a polling station again.

I thought you lot were voting to 'take back parliamentary sovereignty'. You should be pleased the British parliament is going to be involved in making a decision of national importance.

Another twist in the Brexit clusterf**k.

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:I don't think you've understood this at all.

Besides, a "fair democratic vote" is all well and good, but this country is not ruled by plebiscite and not ruled by referenda.

I don't think you have. If you can't see one side having the legitimate grievance then I'll leave it.

FFS, we're talking about the reactions. Remainers have a legitimate grievance - losing the vote doesn't change that.

So if you had won the vote to remain and we were taken out anyway you wouldn't be more upset and likely to react than if you lost the vote. No way.

If Remain had won would Nigel and his cohort of fuckwits have packed up their bags and said ah well we lost nothing we can do about it?

As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

Rugby2023 wrote:

I like haggis wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:

haunch wrote:Well the riots would be over a fair democratic vote being overturned by the dirty ruling elites who voted for the referendum and promised to implement it, what would the remainers be rioting against?

Does it look like the supreme court will definitely agree? Ah well.

Impossible to say, but we won't have long to wait to find out. December 7th.

It is very likely the Supreme Court will agree, if you read the judgements and submissions the Government really have no leg to stand on and the Supreme Court is usually even more wary of the government overriding parliament than the High Court and Court of Appeal. It's not impossible but I would be surprised if the Supreme Court allowed it.

We shall see, certainly I wouldn't like to pre-empt their judgment.

The High Court didn't even listen to the claimants argument, they didn't need to because the Government's case was so bad. I recommend that people read the judgement especially paragraphs 92-96 as they appear to be the key part of the judgement and explain pretty clearly why prerogative powers cannot be used in a case like this. Also worth remembering the Master of the Rolls and Lord Chief Justice decided this case, they are essentially Supreme Court judges in waiting - not some run of the mill High Court recorder.

It's much ado about nothing really, the Brexiteers should be happy that UK Parliament is sovereign and that the power is with UK courts, I don't understand why they aren't, this isn't going to stop Brexit it's just going to make it more democratic.

Quite a funny tweet on the matter (potentially NSFW): https://twitter.com/liammakesmusic/stat ... 4375000065

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

haunch wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:I don't think you've understood this at all.

Besides, a "fair democratic vote" is all well and good, but this country is not ruled by plebiscite and not ruled by referenda.

I don't think you have. If you can't see one side having the legitimate grievance then I'll leave it.

FFS, we're talking about the reactions. Remainers have a legitimate grievance - losing the vote doesn't change that.

So if you had won the vote to remain and we were taken out anyway you wouldn't be more upset and likely to react than if you lost the vote. No way.

The two positions weren't quite the same, it was a vote for preserving the status quo versus one which would cause a great deal of (damaging) upheaval.

Dai another day wrote:

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

Allow me a quick sneer, before we are back on the treadmill of "The British people told us we need to X" to justify the latest utter clusterfuck.

Its the right decision. If May plays the election correctly she should have the majority to carry the vote and leave the remainers nothing to complain about. It will be a horribly ugly GE campaign though and yes, I imagine a fair amount of tactical voting could see the Lib Dems make a parliamentary comeback.

Interesting that the hardline Brexiteers have done a hard volte-face from "you lost, get used to it" to "this is an outrage, the will of the people is being ignored", which is particularly bizarre given that Parliament's job is to carry out the will of the people.

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

I thought the Brexit vote had the largest turnout for decades in any national vote?

Chuckles1188 wrote:Interesting that the hardline Brexiteers have done a hard volte-face from "you lost, get used to it" to "this is an outrage, the will of the people is being ignored", which is particularly bizarre given that Parliament's job is to carry out the will of the people.

The poor wee petals don't actually know what sovereignty is. It's just a catchy buzzword to use against those oppressive EU meanies who steal our fish.

Lorthern Nights wrote:If Remain had won would Nigel and his cohort of fuckwits have packed up their bags and said ah well we lost nothing we can do about it?

I don't think there would be riots. The campaign to leave would continue of course.

JJR wrote:

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

I thought the Brexit vote had the largest turnout for decades in any national vote?

Who fuggin cares like.

JJR wrote:

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

I thought the Brexit vote had the largest turnout for decades in any national vote?

It's taking account all the people who didn't vote and those who couldn't vote like children, so it's an inexact science.

Danny Boyle sums up the UK in 2016 (roll on Jan 27)

“Choose life

Choose Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and hope that someone, somewhere cares

Choose looking up old flames, wishing you’d done it all differently

And choose watching history repeat itself

Choose your future

Choose reality TV, slut shaming, revenge porn

Choose a zero hour contract, a two hour journey to work

And choose the same for your kids, only worse, and smother the pain
with an unknown dose of an unknown drug made in somebody’s kitchen

And then… take a deep breath

You’re an addict, so be addicted

Just be addicted to something else

Choose the ones you love

Choose your future

Choose life”

Personally, i don't think the High Court decision will change much. I didn't like Mrs May's belief that she had some mandate to overrule the will of parliament though

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

On that basis that 37% still beats the 34.7% who voted to remain!

JM2K6 wrote:

DAC2016 wrote:

JM2K6 wrote:

DAC2016 wrote:I think we need to understand why the left feel the need to be in a submissive position when it comes to their leadership. They are a real threat to humanity.

Says the man crying his eyes out because the government's not being allowed to ignore Parliament

Hardly.

I was being charitable about your fascist desire to eliminate a large proportion of the country, champ.

Sensible policies for a better Britain.

wilber wrote: Personally, i don't think the High Court decision will change much. I didn't like Mrs May's belief that she had some mandate to overrule the will of parliament though

At the same time parl could have had a vote on this if it wanted, in an opposition day or something. Odd for the courts to make them.

good old kartoffenführer

haunch wrote:

Lorthern Nights wrote:If Remain had won would Nigel and his cohort of fuckwits have packed up their bags and said ah well we lost nothing we can do about it?

I don't think there would be riots. The campaign to leave would continue of course.

Who on the Remain side is rioting?

Dai another day wrote:

Hellraiser wrote:

Dai another day wrote:A genuinely disgusting decision.

I genuinely despair.

If this goes how I expect it to go then there is no notion of democracy in the UK. Just a facade.

Nigel Farage saying this will provoke huge public anger - It will.

For me personally...well, I will never set foot in a polling station again.

You live in a parliamentary democracy, not a plebiscitary democracy. Sovereignty lies with parliament, not the government and not the general population. There could have been no other decision handed down without fundamentally undermining the constitutional framework of the UK.

But this has been coming for months. Many in the European Parliament didn't take this referendum seriously and many in the House of Commons didn't take the vote seriously. They've duped the British people.

Just like with the Irish Lisbon treaty referendum and the recent Dutch one.

A faux notion of democracy is at forefront of many Western nation states.

The majority, I believe, want a hard Brexit.

I seriously question whether we will get any Brexit at all.

Let me stop you right there since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The Lisbon Treaty was narrowly rejected in Ireland, concessions were made, it was put to a referendum again and passed 67/33 on a higher turnout. No conspiracies, no frustration of "democracy", rather the system actually working and not simply acting as a rubber stamp.

Hellraiser wrote:

Let me stop you right there since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The Lisbon Treaty was narrowly rejected in Ireland, concessions were made, it was put to a referendum again and passed 67/33 on a higher turnout. No conspiracies, no frustration of "democracy", rather the system actually working and not simply acting as a rubber stamp.

Facts aren't welcome in a discussion about Brexit, did you miss the memo?

Just say buzzwords like sovereignty, democracy, tariffs, brexit means brexit.

DragsterDriver wrote:

I like haggis wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

The Sun God wrote:If there were a vote in the Commons today, stay or go, how would you guys imagine it would end up ?

Pretty sure it would be a solid remain- but people are overlooking the civil disorder that would tear the country apart.

What civil disorder are you thinking would happen? I can't really see it to be honest.

I think Parliament would pass Brexit anyway, they kind of have to, they'd just make sure it was a soft Brexit.

You should get out more then- while online debates about Brexit are mostly in a civil manner, building sites and pubs around the country are full of people who believe they have 'won'. There would be major riots.

I thought building sites were filled with Poles. And that that was the problem.

MungoMan wrote:

paddyor wrote:

Dai another day wrote:A genuinely disgusting decision.

I genuinely despair.

If this goes how I expect it to go then there is no notion of democracy in the UK. Just a facade.

Nigel Farage saying this will provoke huge public anger - It will.

For me personally...well, I will never set foot in a polling station again.

Why is it so disgusting? It's the law. Basically, in a situation where a non binding referendum takes place, parliament has final say.

So why have a plebiscite wearing the clothes of a referendum in the first place?

This will end in tears. The question is: whose? But here's a hint.

The fact the UK citizens who actually voted Brexit do not comprise the totality of those eligible will count for fúckall to those who voted for Brexit in good faith. They will feel betrayed, and with good cause.

Should Parliament says Brexit: Yeah Nah, the Home Counties spivs and their middle-class provincial mates will of course snigger and sneer at folk with unfashionable accents. But when city centres start blazing merrily, and when personal safety becomes a pressing issue for Tarquin and Calliope Stoat-Felcher, the laughter will cease.

And I may have something diverting to watch on telly in the rugby off-season after all.

Because Cameron is a weak-willed fvckwit who got bullied by a bunch of malcontent backbenchers.

haunch wrote:

wilber wrote: Personally, i don't think the High Court decision will change much. I didn't like Mrs May's belief that she had some mandate to overrule the will of parliament though

At the same time parl could have had a vote on this if it wanted, in an opposition day or something. Odd for the courts to make them.

Can Parliament pass a law or amendment that allows the PM to trigger a50?

danny_fitz wrote:

SamShark wrote:As a member of the sneering metropolitan liberal elite I find this all hilarious.

Whilst obviously feeling sad for the "will" of the 37% of the electorate that supported Brexit.

On that basis that 37% still beats the 34.7% who voted to remain!

Indeed

This mornings judgement for the Hedge Fund is an outrage & like most the Remoaners their failure to accept a democratic vote is disgraceful. All it does is to further complicate the landscape.

piquant wrote:

haunch wrote:

wilber wrote: Personally, i don't think the High Court decision will change much. I didn't like Mrs May's belief that she had some mandate to overrule the will of parliament though

At the same time parl could have had a vote on this if it wanted, in an opposition day or something. Odd for the courts to make them.

Can Parliament pass a law or amendment that allows the PM to trigger a50?

Maybe they can appeal it to the European courts?

If we had a referendum to build a rocket ship and relocate Hull to Alpha Centuri I'd expect people to consider it fully rather than just cracking on with it on the basis that "some people told me to".

Jonas wrote: Indeed

This mornings judgement for the Hedge Fund is an outrage & like most the Remoaners their failure to accept a democratic vote is disgraceful. All it does is to further complicate the landscape.

You seem to be confused. At no point in the judgement did they say Brexit should not happen. At no point in their submissions did they say Brexit should not happen.

This is what sovereignty actually is, it's pretty simple really.

Lorthern Nights wrote:Anyone done the polling to work out what the vote would have looked like if it had been FPTP?

Would be quite amusing if the majority of MP's returned were returned on a Remain mandate and be then obliged to not trigger a50.

It's a bloody nonsense that we are leaving the EU based on a margin of 2% who will die off in the next couple of years anyway, that is not a clear mandate no matter how much the chinless wonder thinks it is.

Yeah bit the riots. Theyll be smashing windows with their zimmerframes!

we need that General Election now more than ever so we can sort this cluster f*ck out, Theresa May needs to earn her mandate properly not slide in through the back door and seize control of an event that would permanently change the course of this country over the next century