OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

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Duff Paddy
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
Have to agree too. Small countries are too prone to corruption and nepotism. We need outsiders to make hard decisions - the troika for example.
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unseenwork
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by unseenwork »

TranceNRG wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.
I'm Northern Irish, our politicians don't tend to be intellectual giants and I'm well used to being controlled by a government in Westminster that I have little connection to, I just prefer those on the continent.
haunch
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by haunch »

unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.
iarmhiman
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

TranceNRG wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
That's interesting. Trusting in EU bureaucrats more than politicians voted in by your own people. I guess you don't trust your own country to make the right decisions.
I don't trust our politicians to make the very hard, unpopular, needed decisions unless forced by the EU.

Had Greece, Portugal and Ireland been placed under scrutiny before their respective crashes, there mightn't have been those crashes.

The EU wouldn't have allowed our banks to give 100% mortgages for example.

I'm happy where Ireland are now but those painful decisions taken by the Irish government were actually EU decisions enforced on the government. As unpopular they were at the time, they have placed the economy on a healthier footing.

Fianna Fail wouldn't in a million years made decisions like that had they not been forced to. You saw what happened that next general election, They knew they were screwed.
Last edited by iarmhiman on Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duff Paddy
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

haunch wrote:
unseenwork wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:Employment rights. The EU protects workers with 18 months terms and conditions protection when companies buy other companies. That's just one example. I'm not saying the UK government wouldn't continue this, but would you trust them to? There are a lot of good things the EU do for employees rights in Europe. If Ireland left I wouldn't trust our lot one bit.
So what you are saying is you trust EU politicians more than your own politicians voted in by you?
Yes.
Agreed.
:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.
it's no house of lords.
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.

Gove is italic - non italic is the analysis:
Why Michael Gove is wrong on Europe
It’s too long for a tweet, so here are some comments on Michael Gove’s statement on why he’s voting Leave. It’s full of half-truths and exaggerations and I’m amazed it’s been seen as a “flying start for leave”.


My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time


EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone, but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either. Compare the fact that both decision making bodies at EU level can be thrown out with the role of the House of Lords in the UK.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided for the most part by our politicians — only 13% of laws come from EU level. And even those that do are agreed jointly between member states. There are very few — in fact I can’t think of any — UK laws that are the result of the UK being outvoted at EU level.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.


No-one is prouder of Britain’s constitutional achievements than me, but comparing constitutional reform over three hundred years to the EU’s policies in the last decade is comparing apples and oranges. You could equally say “the EU brought the former Eastern bloc into stable democratic government and entrenched free markets and open politics when states were at risk of failure. It created the largest single market in the world, and the most powerful transnational Parliament. By contrast the UK has created and is still suffering from the consequences of an outgrown financial sector, has wasted the dividend from North Sea oil and still hasn’t made significant inroads into urban poverty”.

Moreover, the accusations Gove points at the EU are less than accurate.
EU regulation has entrenched mass unemployment a lot less than national regulation — or we would be suffering from mass unemployment too, since we’re already in the EU. It’s French, Greek and Italian labour laws that do that, not EU ones.
The Euro has exacerbated those differences and caused serious economic problems in southern Europe but they are as much the consequence of poor governance and austerity policies as they are the existence of the Euro itself.
Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque. The EU’s free movement is nothing to do with refugees, although we can be sure that the nastier sort of xenophobe will be deliberately confusing them over the next 120 days. I didn’t think Michael Gove would be doing it, though.

Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria.

These are accusing the EU of the very faults of UK isolationism. Brexit means more razor wire, the argument against the very existence of the EU (which is what Gove is making) would mean more borders not fewer. And as for Libya and Syria, perhaps the UK Government is capable of dealing with the crises, but it hasn’t shown itself to be so far.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time.The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation.
The EU is reforming all the time — it’s a totally different beast from the 1960s or 1980s, as is the UK Government. Is it a lean startup? No, but neither is the DWP. As for innovation, well ask Scientists for EU if the EU encourages innovation or not.

The regulation point is even more interesting. Standardisation, such as with GSM phones, can support markets and innovation by giving a common platform and preventing the creation of mutually incompatible standards. Most EU standards are developed with the industry rather than in a dark room populated only by those evil “unelected bureaucrats”, which means that they have wide support. Perhaps there are some businesses who are campaigning against the GSM standard, but I don’t see them.
Moreover, safety and other regulations are necessary no matter what level of government you are in. Gove gives examples later on of what he thinks of as comical regulations, but what is he seeking as an alternative? A Britain with no regulations? Well, “EU red tape” such as health and safety and emissions regulations might well prove quite popular with workers and voters. Many of the thousands of regulations he talks about are discussed and agreed at EU level because the alternative is discussing and agreeing them in slightly different ways in 28 member states.

we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before.

The EU Commission has the right to propose laws (and yes, this should be with the Parliament and Council as well) but they are only unelected in the way every bureaucrat in Whitehall is unelected, and no law passes without going through Council (elected ministers) and Parliament (elected MEPs). As for the Court — the point of judges is that they are unaccountable, or at least unelected.

As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way

Not true. Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP.

Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule?

This is part of his closing peroration to the glories of the UK and how successful we would be outside the EU. But this is where the whole argument falls down hardest. Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage. As people from Obama to Merkel to Turnbull are telling us from overseas, we are more internationalist in Europe, we are more powerful internationally as part of a strong Europe.

And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?

Gove is arguing for an optimistic and outward looking Britain, proud of its heritage and making its mark in the world. I want to see the same, but it won’t happen by leaving the EU. The tragedy of Gove is that he’s arguing for a change that would make his own vision of the future impossible.
C69
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

So who exactly can vote in the referendum ?
Iirc the situation is different for this vote compared with the GE.
Anyone clarify?
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Duff Paddy
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

:lol: oh yes those dirty cheating Catholics. And you were doing so well too.
haunch
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by haunch »

Duff Paddy wrote:
haunch wrote:
:( democracy, No wonder so many politicians kicked out by their electorate end up there.
it's no house of lords.
Ha, if only.
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
SamShark wrote:Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really
I don't want to quote back the whole thing, but can you cite your sources and the location of the original article in this thread . . . standard etiquette and all that and I want to be able to track back on some of them. Thank.
https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-m ... .iaujuw6tr
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

SamShark wrote:Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.

Gove is italic - non italic is the analysis:
Why Michael Gove is wrong on Europe
It’s too long for a tweet, so here are some comments on Michael Gove’s statement on why he’s voting Leave. It’s full of half-truths and exaggerations and I’m amazed it’s been seen as a “flying start for leave”.


My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time


EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone, but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either. Compare the fact that both decision making bodies at EU level can be thrown out with the role of the House of Lords in the UK.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided for the most part by our politicians — only 13% of laws come from EU level. And even those that do are agreed jointly between member states. There are very few — in fact I can’t think of any — UK laws that are the result of the UK being outvoted at EU level.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.


No-one is prouder of Britain’s constitutional achievements than me, but comparing constitutional reform over three hundred years to the EU’s policies in the last decade is comparing apples and oranges. You could equally say “the EU brought the former Eastern bloc into stable democratic government and entrenched free markets and open politics when states were at risk of failure. It created the largest single market in the world, and the most powerful transnational Parliament. By contrast the UK has created and is still suffering from the consequences of an outgrown financial sector, has wasted the dividend from North Sea oil and still hasn’t made significant inroads into urban poverty”.

Moreover, the accusations Gove points at the EU are less than accurate.
EU regulation has entrenched mass unemployment a lot less than national regulation — or we would be suffering from mass unemployment too, since we’re already in the EU. It’s French, Greek and Italian labour laws that do that, not EU ones.
The Euro has exacerbated those differences and caused serious economic problems in southern Europe but they are as much the consequence of poor governance and austerity policies as they are the existence of the Euro itself.
Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque. The EU’s free movement is nothing to do with refugees, although we can be sure that the nastier sort of xenophobe will be deliberately confusing them over the next 120 days. I didn’t think Michael Gove would be doing it, though.

Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria.

These are accusing the EU of the very faults of UK isolationism. Brexit means more razor wire, the argument against the very existence of the EU (which is what Gove is making) would mean more borders not fewer. And as for Libya and Syria, perhaps the UK Government is capable of dealing with the crises, but it hasn’t shown itself to be so far.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time.The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation.
The EU is reforming all the time — it’s a totally different beast from the 1960s or 1980s, as is the UK Government. Is it a lean startup? No, but neither is the DWP. As for innovation, well ask Scientists for EU if the EU encourages innovation or not.

The regulation point is even more interesting. Standardisation, such as with GSM phones, can support markets and innovation by giving a common platform and preventing the creation of mutually incompatible standards. Most EU standards are developed with the industry rather than in a dark room populated only by those evil “unelected bureaucrats”, which means that they have wide support. Perhaps there are some businesses who are campaigning against the GSM standard, but I don’t see them.
Moreover, safety and other regulations are necessary no matter what level of government you are in. Gove gives examples later on of what he thinks of as comical regulations, but what is he seeking as an alternative? A Britain with no regulations? Well, “EU red tape” such as health and safety and emissions regulations might well prove quite popular with workers and voters. Many of the thousands of regulations he talks about are discussed and agreed at EU level because the alternative is discussing and agreeing them in slightly different ways in 28 member states.

we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before.

The EU Commission has the right to propose laws (and yes, this should be with the Parliament and Council as well) but they are only unelected in the way every bureaucrat in Whitehall is unelected, and no law passes without going through Council (elected ministers) and Parliament (elected MEPs). As for the Court — the point of judges is that they are unaccountable, or at least unelected.

As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way

Not true. Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP.

Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule?

This is part of his closing peroration to the glories of the UK and how successful we would be outside the EU. But this is where the whole argument falls down hardest. Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage. As people from Obama to Merkel to Turnbull are telling us from overseas, we are more internationalist in Europe, we are more powerful internationally as part of a strong Europe.

And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?

Gove is arguing for an optimistic and outward looking Britain, proud of its heritage and making its mark in the world. I want to see the same, but it won’t happen by leaving the EU. The tragedy of Gove is that he’s arguing for a change that would make his own vision of the future impossible.
The EU Parliament has no real power. The laws are drafted by bureaucrats and lobbyists. Parliament can either push a button to accept or reject these laws and regulations.

And the UK would have more power outside the EU. They would then have a direct seat on international bodies rather than being represented by the EU. Who may have a position opposite to the Uk's.

We will become like a weaker Wales in the UK. Still having some power but not much. The people will have even less. As the EU is not democratic. UK politicians still want to retain the Welsh vote. The commission is appointed not elected so they will not give a toss about the 99%. They serve and will need to satisfy other masters.
Carrots and Peas
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Silver wrote:
The EU Parliament has no real power. The laws are drafted by bureaucrats and lobbyists. Parliament can either push a button to accept or reject these laws and regulations.

And the UK would have more power outside the EU. They would then have a direct seat on international bodies rather than being represented by the EU. Who may have a position opposite to the Uk's.

We will become like a weaker Wales in the UK. Still having some power but not much. The people will have even less. As the EU is not democratic. UK politicians still want to retain the Welsh vote. The commission is appointed not elected so they will not give a toss about the 99%. They serve and will need to satisfy other masters.[/quote]

Out of interest what "international bodies" are you talking about? I thought we had our own seat in Nato the G8, G10 and however many Gs there are.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

Carrots and Peas wrote:
Out of interest what "international bodies" are you talking about? I thought we had our own seat in Nato the G8, G10 and however many Gs there are.
http://leave.eu/en/the-facts/on-global-influence
Leaving the EU would give the UK more global influence, not less

With less than a 10% share of the vote in the EU legislatures, the UK’s ability to influence EU policy is limited. An independent UK would therefore exert greater international influence.
The UK’s overall diplomatic reach would remain strong – we would continue to be a major contributor to NATO, and would hold a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (in addition to our fundamental roles in the OECD, the G8, the G20, the P5, and the Commonwealth).
Leaving the EU would give Britain its own seat at the World Trade Organisation rather than being represented by the EU

If Europe is now at a crossroads, if we opt to stay inside the EU, it is clear that the Treaty on European Union's article 1 commitment to ‘ever closer union’ will surely leave the UK with even less influence than it currently has. Leaving the EU would give us greater influence on a global level.

The government would also be free to push for new global trade deals, and reinforce its links with the Commonwealth.

As an English speaking nation, a major economy with vast resources in research and innovation, not to mention cultural output, there is a lot the UK can gain from engaging more fundamentally with the rest of the world, and vice-versa.

We believe it would be better to exercise our own voice on a global level than be an increasingly marginalised voice within the EU.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

Spoiler: show
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lt5MCdRLuY

For anybody who like's their history, Peter Hitchens on the USA, Germany, Ukraine, Britain, Russia and Syria.

Essentially the EU is a US construct and an attempt which has been developed over time (since 1870) and confirmed by the CIA that it's needed for one thing. To control and marginalise Germany and Germany alone.
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henry
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by henry »

So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow, and a fudge you too, to Dave.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

henry wrote:So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.
He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by fisgard792 »

SamShark wrote:Someone has dissected Gove's effort.

This is the problem with these decisions - unless you have time, insight and effort to really understand many issues it's hard to make a decision. I read Gove's piece and thought - hmm, he makes some good points - and now read this and think. Oh. This kind of highlight's Saints point about the folly of electing UKIP clowns as MEPs.
good post, interesting responses
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.
He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.
Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Duff Paddy »

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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by RoseGarden »

Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.
He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.
Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.
Similarly he looks a pillock if we vote to stay imo. It lops off his chances of becoming PM.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.
He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.
Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.
Cameron looks like a cuckold, one of his best friends and longest political allies Gove has been conspiring with Boris for the no campaign and no doubt he is strongly in the "Buffoons" camp for the Tory Party leadership
Last edited by C69 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

I've never really seen the substance in Boris, or got the joke.

People say "he's incredibly intelligent" but if that's the case it would seem to me to be academic intelligence, rather than real world usefulness. I don't want a PM who can write a cracking essay.

He's kind of betraying London with this career move as London wants to stay (the majority of the people) and the City wants to stay (tha majority of business).

But I guess his career is important.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

RoseGarden wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:
henry wrote:So Boris throws his lot in with the Leave campaign.

Bit of a blow to, and a f**k you, to Dave.
He's an opportunist. That's what that decision says to me about him.
Yep, it was inevitable. If the UK votes to leave than BoJo will be in a stronger position for the Tory leadership.
Similarly he looks a pillock if we vote to stay imo. It lops off his chances of becoming PM.
Indeed, he's gambling on the result. He's not going to get the nomination if we stay/go and he endorses staying, however he might get the nomination if he leads the Brexit campaign and we leave.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

SamShark wrote:I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
Sam - look at the youtube video I posted earlier. A very good listen to.

Also this :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjmNWwA6V5I

You'll like also.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by TranceNRG »

SamShark wrote:I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.
I'm really just quoting what I've read - I dont know if he will leave.

But if he puts his "heart and soul" into staying and we end up leaving, surely there will be calls for someone who will enter the brave new world having backed the right horse?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.
It's not Labour it's just about every political commentator.
Labour is just as split tbh. Labour are an absolute irrelevance as far as this vote goes.
Boris's move is just about his future plans for power.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

c69 wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
SamShark wrote:I've read a couple of Conservative blogs and they seem to be speculating that, despite everyone insisting Cameron stays after a "leave", he would be a gonner.

So yes, step forward a new leader who can negotiate our exit.
Why would he leave? He said he'll remain the PM if UK leave and conservative MPs fully support him. There's no 'rift' in the party as much as Labour try to make us believe.
It's not Labour it's just about every political commentator.
Labour is just as split tbh. Labour are an absolute irrelevance as far as this vote goes.
Boris's move is just about his future plans for power.[/quote]
Well, yes.

If he stays he's unlikely to be PM.

If he wins though, he is Prime Minster this summer. We are out. He's a massive influence. Farage and Boris Johnson is a bizarre combo, but as a team it could be very influential.

It also underlines my other theory. This isn't just about IN or OUT, this is about you as a person. Are you a person who eventually wants to see a one nation planet, or are you a patriot.

Both have pros and cons I admit. I am the latter and I hate Socialists purely because the slimy dealings that have gone on for more than 20 years. I also think a one world state, or the 3 super power idea is very dangerous and just leads to abuse. But I expect I'll be a minority in that regard.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... split.html
Will Europe split the Tories in 2016?
Mr Cameron has a character flaw of stoking up expectations to a preposterous and self-defeating level



What money would a bookmaker give on the Conservative Party’s still being in one piece in December 2016? Trench warfare is now well under way on the European question, and few wish to conduct it according to the Geneva Convention. Why, indeed, should they? The opposition is pathetic; the ludicrous Fixed-term Parliaments Act (which a moral government would repeal) prevents there being an election for another four and half years; and some Tories hate each other with a loathing that defies description. It may get uglier yet.
Sir Alan Duncan, a former minister believed to be sympathetic to the Leave campaign, used the season of goodwill to call for the argument not “to be dragged down to a personality-driven series of attacks” as this would not “do justice to the seriousness of the issues”. He is right. The case the Leave campaign can make is so unremittingly powerful that ad hominem abuse is unnecessary. That will not, I fear, prevent infantile unpleasantness, especially if one side panics because it perceives it is losing.


The reversal of the tide of the argument since the migrant crisis last summer has spooked some Tories. There are very few who take the John Major view that we should stay in whatever is offered. There are more who for reasons of personal ambition and residual loyalty feel the Prime Minister must be supported whatever. But the burden of feeling at Westminster is, quite clearly, that the case for staying in remains to be made, and probably will not be.
Mr Cameron has not handled this well, and I suspect he knows it. He has a character flaw of stoking up expectations to a preposterous level. Do you remember his promise, when running for leader in 2005, that he would pull the Tories out of the federalist grouping in which they sat in the European Parliament? It turned out he could not do this for four years, until the next European elections.
And do you remember how, when Gordon Brown fouled up the Treaty of Lisbon, Mr Cameron announced he would revoke it once in office? He couldn’t do that at all. Had he bothered to ask our masters in Brussels before that act of grandstanding, they would have told him he could only repeal that treaty by repealing every other one back to the Treaty of Brussels, the baleful document in which Ted Heath signed away our sovereignty in 1972.
Now he has done it again. Noting the anxiety in Britain over uncontrolled immigration from the EU, he talked boldly of a renegotiation. But it soon became clear that if there were such a renegotiation, it would not include what the British care about most – uncontrolled immigration. It wouldn’t even, it seems, include the fig leaf invented to conceal that failure, a restriction of benefits for the first four years of an immigrant’s life in Britain, because his confrères won’t let him. As Bernard Jenkin, one of the more sensible Tory MPs, has said, such demands as are left in Mr Cameron’s so-called renegotiation package are “trivial”.
The Prime Minister has two of the worst attributes of the public relations spiv, and they undermine his case badly. The first is that he believes his own publicity; the second is that he expects the rest of us to believe it, too. At Brussels 10 days ago his counterparts effectively told him to get lost. A spin operation of breathtaking dishonesty was then instituted, in which we were asked to believe he had just pulled off Agincourt, Waterloo and the 1966 football World Cup final in a single bound. The front he put up outraged his party, and the response was swift.

Two serious and hard-minded former cabinet ministers, Liam Fox and Owen Paterson, went over the parapet. Dr Fox, playing John Major at his game, said he would vote to leave and urged Mr Cameron to “end the pretence” of a renegotiation. This emperor’s clothes moment was exceptionally welcome in what had been an increasingly bizarre debate. Dr Fox also said ministers should be allowed to treat the question of our nation’s sovereignty as “a matter of conscience”, and not be forced to resign if they disagreed with a prime ministerial desire to stay in at all costs.
Mr Paterson was even more provocative. Several cabinet ministers want to wash their hands of the Cameron “renegotiation” and come out and say that Britain must leave. Mr Paterson said it would be “wholly incredible” for them not to do so. Steve Baker, a leading backbench outer, said it would be a “pantomime” if ministers continued to join in the Prime Minister’s pretence that there might be a favourable outcome to his talks.
Yet in our sister paper last week William Hague – who in 2001 fought an election campaign on the basis that there were only a limited number of days to “save the pound” as he feared our being subsumed into the euro – wrote that we must stay in because it might end the United Kingdom if we did not. He means, of course, that our Scottish cousins would seek another referendum if we voted to get out, because Scotland would rather rely on the largesse of Brussels than that of London to keep them solvent.

Confusing the issue in this way was the clearest indication yet that panic is breaking out among those who wish the collaboration with Brussels to continue. However, if the people of England were to be asked that question – would you rather remain under the undemocratic control of Brussels but keep Scotland in the family, or regain national self-determination and face the prospects of the Scots leaving? – I wonder what the answer would be. After all, Scotland has yet to establish that, even if it left the UK, it would be allowed back into the EU. Given what has happened to its oil price and its financial services sector – remember RBS and HBOS? – it might have to get in the queue behind Albania.
The odds were further raised when Mark Field, vice-chairman of the Tory party, proclaimed that ministers who opposed membership should resign. What was he thinking of, saying that? How stable does he think the government would be if, say, five or six cabinet ministers walked, and took another five or six junior ministers with them? Has he read what happened to the Liberal government when it split over Home Rule in 1886? Or how the Tories were put out of office for 17 years after the cabinet divided over free trade in 1903?
Conservat
ive MP Mark Field
Conservative MP Mark Field Photo: Rex
Perhaps Mr Field imagines he would fill one of the many ministerial vacancies: good luck to him. If he said what he did at the instigation of his master in Downing Street, then that master needs to lie down in a darkened room for a while. I fear neither Mr Field nor Mr Cameron has the slightest idea how combustible their party is at the moment.
This goes far beyond name-calling. It is about a large number of MPs who, recognising the real anger of their activists and constituents, believe it is time somebody told the truth about how rough the deal will be that Europe will present us with. The real insult is that our rulers see no harm in trifling with us over a matter of this gravity, in keeping from us the truth about the failure of the renegotiation. It can’t go on, because if it does the party will split.
From last December
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

iarmhiman wrote:The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?
Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?
Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.
A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

c69 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?
Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.
A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.
One of the things I need to get my head around is, can you assume that those people backing "out" are doing so as it will enhance their vision of what the world should look like (as opposed to something much bigger)?

I dont feel like my view of a good UK is the one shared by Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris or indeed Galloway.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by C69 »

SamShark wrote:
c69 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
iarmhiman wrote:The question is, if the UK stay, will he wield the axe on Gove, Grayling , Theresa Villiers etc?
Hasn't Grayling been pretty consistent?

At least the likes of Grayling and Liam Fox seem to be campaigning from genuine belief that they want out and have to make their case.

A few others seem to be looking at career moves/tactics.
A someone that loves politics I find this all fascinating, however I am not sure all the machinations are in the best interests of the UK as a whole.
One of the things I need to get my head around is, can you assume that those people backing "out" are doing so as it will enhance their vision of what the world should look like (as opposed to something much bigger)?

I dont feel like my view of a good UK is the one shared by Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris or indeed Galloway.
Neither do I.
I must say howver must I dislike Cameron he has at least shown some conviction in his actions.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by iarmhiman »

What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by ZW03 »

Doc Rob wrote:
SamShark wrote:
cachao wrote:Doesn't Corbyn also have greater support amongst the young?
It's an interesting issue.

In the Scottish independence referendum the nationalists accused the older generation of not being brave and hanging on to the status quo.

In this case it's the older generation who want "out" of something more than the young.

Quite. I'm already cringing waiting for all the people who were dead against Scottish independence from the UK arguing in favour of UK 'independence' from Brussels, whilst shamelessly using all of the same arguments
.
This has been quite remarkable to watch over the last 30 years or so. A complete and utter lack of self-awareness and understanding of irony on a national level.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

Wendigo7 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lt5MCdRLuY

For anybody who like's their history, Peter Hitchens on the USA, Germany, Ukraine, Britain, Russia and Syria.

Essentially the EU is a US construct and an attempt which has been developed over time (since 1870) and confirmed by the CIA that it's needed for one thing. To control and marginalise Germany and Germany alone.
FFS :lol: :lol:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

iarmhiman wrote:What's Galloway's angle in all this? What are his reasons for voting no?
For the same reason as David Icke probably - dislike of elites with too much power.
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