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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:44 pm
by Doc Rob
Slider wrote:
Silver wrote:
Slider wrote:
Surely its the other way. Those for Scottish independence are likely against UK sovereignty. For some strange reason.
It's a pretty solid correlation both ways. Those who supported independence are largely pro-Europe, those who support the current Union of the UK are anti-Europe. There is another group of mostly English nationalists who would be happiest to see the lot of them bugger off, but it's a minority.
Pro EU?

Many who STRONGLY support the current Union of the UK are pro-EU. This kind of makes sense

Being pro Scottish independence and pro UK in the EU doesn't.
I've had a think about what I said, and it's full of holes, but no point in deleting it. Cameron for example is anti-independence and pro-EU. Galloway is anti-independence and anti-EU. (Mind you he's serial liar). (Edit - I'm not saying Cameron isn't)

But you're wrong about your second point. Most of Scotland is pro-EU, but about 50% are also pro-independence. They like Europe, they like the EU which acts as a brake on Tory policies from Westminster. First prize for those people would be Scotland in the EU, second prize is UK in the EU.
That's about right. A Tory government entirely unfettered by more moderate EU laws is too horrible to contemplate.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:44 pm
by iarmhiman
Looking forward to this. Whether the UK stay in or out, it's going to be great television. Should be good trolling on here as well either way. Expect Cammy, Bill, Terryfinch and Sewa to all shine during this campaign on PR.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:45 pm
by Saint
Sefton wrote:It's easy for me, WWSD.
You can just follow your avatar

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:46 pm
by Carrots and Peas
Slider wrote:
Silver wrote:
Slider wrote:
Surely its the other way. Those for Scottish independence are likely against UK sovereignty. For some strange reason.
It's a pretty solid correlation both ways. Those who supported independence are largely pro-Europe, those who support the current Union of the UK are anti-Europe. There is another group of mostly English nationalists who would be happiest to see the lot of them bugger off, but it's a minority.
Pro EU?

Many who STRONGLY support the current Union of the UK are pro-EU. This kind of makes sense

Being pro Scottish independence and pro UK in the EU doesn't.
I've had a think about what I said, and it's full of holes, but no point in deleting it. Cameron for example is anti-independence and pro-EU. Galloway is anti-independence and anti-EU. (Mind you he's serial liar). (Edit - I'm not saying Cameron isn't)

But you're wrong about your second point. Most of Scotland is pro-EU, but about 50% are also pro-independence. They like Europe, they like the EU which acts as a brake on Tory policies from Westminster. First prize for those people would be Scotland in the EU, second prize is UK in the EU.
45% were in favour in a nationwide poll done in September 2014.

Scotland wanted to stay in the EU if they got independence so it makes sense they want to stay in the EU being part of the UK.

I hope the UK stays tbf, I live in London these days but can't be doing with another Scottish referendum.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:47 pm
by Newby1
I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:47 pm
by Slider
Sefton wrote:It's easy for me, WWSD.
Who is S?

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:47 pm
by paddyor
Eurozone - Britain can keep the pound while being in Europe, and its business trade with the bloc, without fear of discrimination. Any British money spent on bailing out eurozone nations will be reimbursed.
That's fair enough and as it should be. The last sentence is completely tacked on though.
Protection for the City of London - Safeguards for Britain's large financial services industry to prevent eurozone regulations being imposed on it
It will be interesting how this is applied. Assuming the € survives, surely the EZ countries have the right to dictate how it's used and to some extent it's movement. E.g capital controls. Tbh I don't think there was ever much of a threat to the city of London that Special Britain couldn't face down with the support of other countries (as long as it was in the EU), but perception is all.
'Red card' for national parliaments - It will be easier for governments to band together to block unwanted legislation. If 55% of national EU parliaments object to a piece of EU legislation it may be rethought.
The first seems to be a reduction for qualified majority voting we'll have to see how this works out. Presumably vetos still aply on matters like tax anyway.
Competitiveness - The settlement calls on all EU institutions and member states to "make all efforts to fully implement and strengthen the internal market" and to take "concrete steps towards better regulation", including by cutting red tape.
The second will be a little redundant if(as I hope) TTIP comes through as it will cut away a lot of regulation anyway. If it falls through then it's meaningless.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:49 pm
by Slider
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:50 pm
by cachao
haunch wrote:Any pro eu types going to leave in protest if we get out?
Does that not depend on the price of cheese?

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:50 pm
by haunch
Doc Rob wrote:
Slider wrote:
Silver wrote:
Slider wrote:
Surely its the other way. Those for Scottish independence are likely against UK sovereignty. For some strange reason.
It's a pretty solid correlation both ways. Those who supported independence are largely pro-Europe, those who support the current Union of the UK are anti-Europe. There is another group of mostly English nationalists who would be happiest to see the lot of them bugger off, but it's a minority.
Pro EU?

Many who STRONGLY support the current Union of the UK are pro-EU. This kind of makes sense

Being pro Scottish independence and pro UK in the EU doesn't.
I've had a think about what I said, and it's full of holes, but no point in deleting it. Cameron for example is anti-independence and pro-EU. Galloway is anti-independence and anti-EU. (Mind you he's serial liar). (Edit - I'm not saying Cameron isn't)

But you're wrong about your second point. Most of Scotland is pro-EU, but about 50% are also pro-independence. They like Europe, they like the EU which acts as a brake on Tory policies from Westminster. First prize for those people would be Scotland in the EU, second prize is UK in the EU.
That's about right. A Tory government entirely unfettered by more moderate EU laws is too horrible to contemplate.
Interesting, how has the eu fettered the tories? Should be more ammo for the leave campaign.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:54 pm
by The Man Without Fear
Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:55 pm
by AND-y
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
British today are you?

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:59 pm
by haunch
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"
So it's a way of getting stuff into law that you don't think the public will vote for? Seems like we could do all this outside the eu.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:59 pm
by cachao
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"
All good reasons for capitalists to want an exit. Do they?

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:59 pm
by Carrots and Peas
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"
Human rights wouldn't change. The EU isn't a member of the European Convention of Human Rights because the EU doesn't allow a "fair trial" for antitrust offences so I don't think it would have a huge impact. The British Bill of Rights is going to be exactly the same as the ECHR and Gove knows it but having "British" over "European" in the title will pull the wool over people's eyes.

Can't disagree on workers rights and environment though.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:01 pm
by unseenwork
I'm heading to Dublin if this all goes tits up. :thumbup: Though I'll still be an EU citizen of course.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:04 pm
by Newby1
Slider wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)
Places like Canada, Australia and NZ aren't f**ked. When you add in one of the fastest growing large economies in the world (god know how based on what I've read regarding their tax laws) and you have a good basis for trade.

The USA would be a handy partner too when it comes to trade.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:05 pm
by Newby1
AND-y wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
British today are you?
I live in Britain and have recently obtained dual nationality. I think its fair for me to voice an opinion regarding the future of the country where I live, work, and pay taxes in.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:06 pm
by AND-y
Newby1 wrote:
AND-y wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
British today are you?
I live in Britain and have recently obtained dual nationality. I think its fair for me to voice an opinion regarding the future of the country where I live, work, and pay taxes in.
That depends. How brown are you? :P

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:12 pm
by iarmhiman
The more I watch BBC News 24 and its coverage of the referendum this morning, the more I believe it's going to be an out vote win. I don't believe Cameron's spin is going to work.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:13 pm
by Carrots and Peas
Newby1 wrote:
Slider wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)
Places like Canada, Australia and NZ aren't f**k. When you add in one of the fastest growing large economies in the world (god know how based on what I've read regarding their tax laws) and you have a good basis for trade.

The USA would be a handy partner too when it comes to trade.
A handy partner indeed. So, did you know the EU and USA are forming the TTIP which is the biggest ever trade deal in the history of the World? And they already trade with us and they want us to stay in the EU so you've completely undone your argument there. Better luck next time.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:31 pm
by paddyor
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Newby1 wrote:
Slider wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)
Places like Canada, Australia and NZ aren't f**k. When you add in one of the fastest growing large economies in the world (god know how based on what I've read regarding their tax laws) and you have a good basis for trade.

The USA would be a handy partner too when it comes to trade.
A handy partner indeed. So, did you know the EU and USA are forming the TTIP which is the biggest ever trade deal in the history of the World? And they already trade with us and they want us to stay in the EU so you've completely undone your argument there. Better luck next time.
The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:34 pm
by Silver
iarmhiman wrote:The more I watch BBC News 24 and its coverage of the referendum this morning, the more I believe it's going to be an out vote win. I don't believe Cameron's spin is going to work.

They will just ramp up the scare stories if this looks likely. Or threats

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:36 pm
by Newby1
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Newby1 wrote:
Slider wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)
Places like Canada, Australia and NZ aren't f**k. When you add in one of the fastest growing large economies in the world (god know how based on what I've read regarding their tax laws) and you have a good basis for trade.

The USA would be a handy partner too when it comes to trade.
A handy partner indeed. So, did you know the EU and USA are forming the TTIP which is the biggest ever trade deal in the history of the World? And they already trade with us and they want us to stay in the EU so you've completely undone your argument there. Better luck next time.
France and other European states who are vehemently anti progress will delay and water that deal down till its worthless. They have form for f**king everyone over just so they can fudge themselves over, and they've already started to do it here.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:37 pm
by Silver
ID2 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
What are the main reasons people want to leave? What did Cameron need to 'win' to get people to stay in?
To regain our independence / sovereignty.

If we loss it to an undemocratic EU it will be almost impossible to get it back. even joining the Euro is as good as too late. As Greece recently found out

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:38 pm
by Newby1
paddyor wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Newby1 wrote:
Slider wrote:
Newby1 wrote:I'm out. I don't want to be part of a political organisation with such a clear deficit of democracy. I'd much rather Britain leave and set up a comprehensive trade union (non political!) with the commonwealth who actually share the same ideals of democracy and aspiration.
Have you seen the Commonwealth lately?

(Or have I been wooshed?)
Places like Canada, Australia and NZ aren't f**k. When you add in one of the fastest growing large economies in the world (god know how based on what I've read regarding their tax laws) and you have a good basis for trade.

The USA would be a handy partner too when it comes to trade.
A handy partner indeed. So, did you know the EU and USA are forming the TTIP which is the biggest ever trade deal in the history of the World? And they already trade with us and they want us to stay in the EU so you've completely undone your argument there. Better luck next time.
The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.
Because the EU ceased to be a trade bloc aeons ago. Is a political union with the explicit aim of removing national autonomy and democracy. Of course its unwieldy because everyone wants to make sure that the eventual super state looks like their current state when their current states are massively out of sync.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:42 pm
by Silver
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"

How about we will be screwed if we stay in. The PM has much reduced power now. He or she will have almost no real power in 10 yrs if we vote to stay in

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:46 pm
by Anonymous 1
To much fog to know for sure what would be best financially. However I do not want to be a European . I want to be British and will vote to leave

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:47 pm
by unseenwork
Silver wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"

How about we will be screwed if we stay in. The PM has much reduced power now. He or she will have almost no real power in 10 yrs if we vote to stay in
Sounds alright to me! :thumbup:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:49 pm
by Wendigo7
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:50 pm
by cachao
Silver wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"

How about we will be screwed if we stay in. The PM has much reduced power now. He or she will have almost no real power in 10 yrs if we vote to stay in
And who is to guarantee that environmental regulations, workers rights etc will not be changed by the EU? The super-state might actually worsen working conditions.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:52 pm
by danny_fitz
Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:02 pm
by SaintK
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:06 pm
by SamShark
Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.
I back the status quo - remain. I think the EU is a self serving, unaccountable load of bollocks, but we are in now - it's what we have - and extracting ourselves is too risky for me. The EU would need to protect itself from future exits by other countries so has no interest in making our exit smooth and beneficial to us. They wouldnt spite themselves but wont assist/be helpful.

It's the same reason why I wanted Scotland to remain. Who knows if it would have been better for rUK sans Scotland, but all I could see was wrangling, animosity and shit loads of admin for years.

The above has nothing to do with left/right ideology or nothing to do with Cameron's deal, whatever that turns out to be.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:07 pm
by SamShark
SaintK wrote:
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:
Just a figure of speech :thumbup:

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:21 pm
by danny_fitz
Sefton wrote:
danny_fitz wrote:Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
Were they in or out?
I believe the strap line was 'zip me up before you vote no' with a nod towards a certain wham classic

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:28 pm
by Glaston
danny_fitz wrote:
Sefton wrote:
danny_fitz wrote:Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
Were they in or out?
I believe the strap line was 'zip me up before you vote no' with a nod towards a certain wham classic
Gents toilets one presumes?

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:32 pm
by Silver
SamShark wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.
I back the status quo - remain. I think the EU is a self serving, unaccountable load of bollocks, but we are in now - it's what we have - and extracting ourselves is too risky for me. The EU would need to protect itself from future exits by other countries so has no interest in making our exit smooth and beneficial to us. They wouldnt spite themselves but wont assist/be helpful.

It's the same reason why I wanted Scotland to remain. Who knows if it would have been better for rUK sans Scotland, but all I could see was wrangling, animosity and shit loads of admin for years.

The above has nothing to do with left/right ideology or nothing to do with Cameron's deal, whatever that turns out to be.
If the EU leave its all over. And that will be a very good not bad outcome. Europe will be able to breath the fresh air again

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:36 pm
by Edinburgh01
SaintK wrote:
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:
Ditto, but it is a month till I am 60 so I may change my mind when I pass that milestone.

Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:40 pm
by Carrots and Peas
paddyor wrote: The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.
Very true. Read an article saying we should continue our "love affair" with India. Which bit showed us to be a happy couple? When we slaughtered countless Indians or when their most famous individual is famed for getting us to fudge off? They were wanting reparations for colonial rule recently, pretty sure discussing it in their Parliament. Which brings me to very much doubt the reason we aren't trading with the Commonwealth is because the EU won't let us it's because they don't like us for invading them, killing them and raping them off their resources and subjecting them to rulers they didn't ever want.

But then again the Commonwealth is just a soundbite for the tabloids to propose a "viable alternative" to trading with the EU.