OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

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Whether you can or can't actually vote IRL, In, or Out

In
248
60%
Out
167
40%
 
Total votes: 415

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Wendigo7
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Wendigo7 »

SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.
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cachao
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by cachao »

Silver wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:Environmental regulations, human rights and workers rights are three examples that spring to mind instantly when one thinks, "What will be screwed if we leave the EU?"

How about we will be screwed if we stay in. The PM has much reduced power now. He or she will have almost no real power in 10 yrs if we vote to stay in
And who is to guarantee that environmental regulations, workers rights etc will not be changed by the EU? The super-state might actually worsen working conditions.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by danny_fitz »

Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
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Sefton
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

danny_fitz wrote:Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
Were they in or out?
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SaintK
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SaintK »

SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.
I back the status quo - remain. I think the EU is a self serving, unaccountable load of bollocks, but we are in now - it's what we have - and extracting ourselves is too risky for me. The EU would need to protect itself from future exits by other countries so has no interest in making our exit smooth and beneficial to us. They wouldnt spite themselves but wont assist/be helpful.

It's the same reason why I wanted Scotland to remain. Who knows if it would have been better for rUK sans Scotland, but all I could see was wrangling, animosity and shit loads of admin for years.

The above has nothing to do with left/right ideology or nothing to do with Cameron's deal, whatever that turns out to be.
Last edited by SamShark on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

SaintK wrote:
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:
Just a figure of speech :thumbup:
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by danny_fitz »

Sefton wrote:
danny_fitz wrote:Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
Were they in or out?
I believe the strap line was 'zip me up before you vote no' with a nod towards a certain wham classic
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Glaston
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Glaston »

danny_fitz wrote:
Sefton wrote:
danny_fitz wrote:Good to see The Sun are concentrating on the big issues of the referendum by having a front page splash featuring a photo of two euro aides caught shagging in the toilets
Were they in or out?
I believe the strap line was 'zip me up before you vote no' with a nod towards a certain wham classic
Gents toilets one presumes?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

SamShark wrote:
Wendigo7 wrote:
SamShark wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:I think it will be an 'out', the conditions Dave has won are clearly shite and full of conditions. He's come away empty handed.
So you think undecided people will see the deal as shit, and that will convince them to vote out?

Some say almost 50% of people are open to be convinced either way.
Where do you actually stand Sam?

I get you're a lefty, but the EU's intrinsic nature to go back on anything it has done so far and the deal not confirmed and legally binding isn't a great sell to any in voter.
I back the status quo - remain. I think the EU is a self serving, unaccountable load of bollocks, but we are in now - it's what we have - and extracting ourselves is too risky for me. The EU would need to protect itself from future exits by other countries so has no interest in making our exit smooth and beneficial to us. They wouldnt spite themselves but wont assist/be helpful.

It's the same reason why I wanted Scotland to remain. Who knows if it would have been better for rUK sans Scotland, but all I could see was wrangling, animosity and shit loads of admin for years.

The above has nothing to do with left/right ideology or nothing to do with Cameron's deal, whatever that turns out to be.
If the EU leave its all over. And that will be a very good not bad outcome. Europe will be able to breath the fresh air again
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Edinburgh01
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Edinburgh01 »

SaintK wrote:
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:
Ditto, but it is a month till I am 60 so I may change my mind when I pass that milestone.
Carrots and Peas
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

paddyor wrote: The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.
Very true. Read an article saying we should continue our "love affair" with India. Which bit showed us to be a happy couple? When we slaughtered countless Indians or when their most famous individual is famed for getting us to fudge off? They were wanting reparations for colonial rule recently, pretty sure discussing it in their Parliament. Which brings me to very much doubt the reason we aren't trading with the Commonwealth is because the EU won't let us it's because they don't like us for invading them, killing them and raping them off their resources and subjecting them to rulers they didn't ever want.

But then again the Commonwealth is just a soundbite for the tabloids to propose a "viable alternative" to trading with the EU.
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Newby1
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Newby1 »

Just been reading up on an article which highlights the insanity of the EU (in todays Telegraph on paper).

70% of EU GDP is generated by services. There is no common market for services. 24 years and no common market for the most important area of European economies?

The remaining 30% of GDP (not all of which have access to a common market) are regulated by 700,000 pages of laws and regulations. Specifically on trade! That is a fraction of the total of laws made by the EU. 72% of British laws are now made by the EU, which probably explains the vast increase of laws passed under Blair and now Cameron.

No organisation can live like this. Its strangling growth and aspiration. When Britain joined the EC Europe accounted for 32% of world GDP, now it accounts for 19%.

In my opinion its trade union or nothing. And by that I mean no silly EU jobs to pension off politicians and free trade across goods and services.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Newby1 wrote:Just been reading up on an article which highlights the insanity of the EU (in todays Telegraph on paper).

70% of EU GDP is generated by services. There is no common market for services. 24 years and no common market for the most important area of European economies?

The remaining 30% of GDP (not all of which have access to a common market) are regulated by 700,000 pages of laws and regulations. Specifically on trade! That is a fraction of the total of laws made by the EU. 72% of British laws are now made by the EU, which probably explains the vast increase of laws passed under Blair and now Cameron.

No organisation can live like this. Its strangling growth and aspiration. When Britain joined the EC Europe accounted for 32% of world GDP, now it accounts for 19%.

In my opinion its trade union or nothing. And by that I mean no silly EU jobs to pension off politicians and free trade across goods and services.
How much of that is to do with the EU restricting Britain and how much to do with the Chinese, Indian, Middle Easters, NZ and Australian economies growing and therefore accounting for a larger share of the world's GDP since the early 70s though?

Edit - the answer is the rest of the world's growth to make that clear.

Also on services it's good for us if financial and legal services are unrestricted by Europe because they're the only reason we're a big economy.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
paddyor wrote: The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.
Very true. Read an article saying we should continue our "love affair" with India. Which bit showed us to be a happy couple? When we slaughtered countless Indians or when their most famous individual is famed for getting us to f**k off? They were wanting reparations for colonial rule recently, pretty sure discussing it in their Parliament. Which brings me to very much doubt the reason we aren't trading with the Commonwealth is because the EU won't let us it's because they don't like us for invading them, killing them and raping them off their resources and subjecting them to rulers they didn't ever want.

But then again the Commonwealth is just a soundbite for the tabloids to propose a "viable alternative" to trading with the EU.
Forget India, they're their own monster now, and you are correct that the history is a little complex, ditto the rest of the empire commonwealth. However the UK would benefit from much increased trade and freedom of movement agreements with Australia, Canada, and NZ. After all, the four of them are part of a very close knit military and intelligence arrangement. It is a very strange quirk of post-war history that they've managed to cut themselves off from each other in other matters.

I'd like to include Ireland in that group too, but I doubt they'd want to be included. Singapore is another one that could be considered.
But then surely you can have increased trade and movement with those countries whilst staying in the EU? And what honestly makes more sense, good trade relations with our neighbours or good trade relations with people living the other side of the world?

I'm not 100% sure but I really don't think part of EU membership is isolation from Aus, NZ, Singapore, China etc. Could be wrong though and if anyone knows I'm willing to be educated on it.
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Nobleman
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Nobleman »

In

David Cameron
The Conservatives (75% of MPs)
Labour Party
Liberals
SNP
Green Party
Plaid Cymru
SDLP
The Queen
Archbishop of Canterbury
Barack Obama
NATO
US Government
CBI
80 % of FTSE 100 CEOs
The City

Out

UKIP
Ulster Unionists
Nigel Farage
IDS
John Redwood
Michael Gove
Kate Hoey
The Daily Express
Katie Hopkins
George Galloway
Nigel Lawson
Some other right wing loons aged 70+
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Sefton
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

The Outs. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Silver
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Silver »

Nobleman wrote:In

David Cameron
The Conservatives (75% of MPs)
Labour Party
Liberals
SNP
Green Party
Plaid Cymru
SDLP
The Queen
Archbishop of Canterbury
Barack Obama
NATO
US Government
CBI
80 % of FTSE 100 CEOs
The City

Out

UKIP
Ulster Unionists
Nigel Farage
IDS
John Redwood
Michael Gove
Kate Hoey
The Daily Express
Katie Hopkins
George Galloway
Nigel Lawson
Some other right wing loons aged 70+
A weak tactic

Lying and deceitfulness is likely to be a lot more effective. Whatever you do don't debate the real issues
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Sefton
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Sefton »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Sefton wrote:The Outs. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Elitist scum.
That's me.
Carrots and Peas
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
paddyor wrote: The anglophone trade bloc is fantasy stuff. The only thing you and those countries had in common with each other back in the day was you controlled them. It's very much a case of grass is always greener. Why do people think a trade bloc with such different outlooks in and trade interests like that wouldn't be just as unwieldy as the EU.
Very true. Read an article saying we should continue our "love affair" with India. Which bit showed us to be a happy couple? When we slaughtered countless Indians or when their most famous individual is famed for getting us to f**k off? They were wanting reparations for colonial rule recently, pretty sure discussing it in their Parliament. Which brings me to very much doubt the reason we aren't trading with the Commonwealth is because the EU won't let us it's because they don't like us for invading them, killing them and raping them off their resources and subjecting them to rulers they didn't ever want.

But then again the Commonwealth is just a soundbite for the tabloids to propose a "viable alternative" to trading with the EU.
Forget India, they're their own monster now, and you are correct that the history is a little complex, ditto the rest of the empire commonwealth. However the UK would benefit from much increased trade and freedom of movement agreements with Australia, Canada, and NZ. After all, the four of them are part of a very close knit military and intelligence arrangement. It is a very strange quirk of post-war history that they've managed to cut themselves off from each other in other matters.

I'd like to include Ireland in that group too, but I doubt they'd want to be included. Singapore is another one that could be considered.
But then surely you can have increased trade and movement with those countries whilst staying in the EU? And what honestly makes more sense, good trade relations with our neighbours or good trade relations with people living the other side of the world?

I'm not 100% sure but I really don't think part of EU membership is isolation from Aus, NZ, Singapore, China etc. Could be wrong though and if anyone knows I'm willing to be educated on it.
Nope. UK can't negotiate special situations for those countries. UK is cut off from the three finest products of its imperial legacy.
Oh really, so the UK can't have trade relationships with anyone without it being with rEU as well? Do you have a treaty source for this out of interest?

It doesn't make sense to me because so many countries (notably the US, Russia, China, Japan and the Middle East) buy the financial and legal services from the City, so we must be able to have some sort of relationships outwith the EU. Or is that because those relationships are with big global banks and multinational magic circle law firms etc so the relationship is with private companies and not the UK government?
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Saint »

Carrots and Peas wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Very true. Read an article saying we should continue our "love affair" with India. Which bit showed us to be a happy couple? When we slaughtered countless Indians or when their most famous individual is famed for getting us to f**k off? They were wanting reparations for colonial rule recently, pretty sure discussing it in their Parliament. Which brings me to very much doubt the reason we aren't trading with the Commonwealth is because the EU won't let us it's because they don't like us for invading them, killing them and raping them off their resources and subjecting them to rulers they didn't ever want.

But then again the Commonwealth is just a soundbite for the tabloids to propose a "viable alternative" to trading with the EU.
Forget India, they're their own monster now, and you are correct that the history is a little complex, ditto the rest of the empire commonwealth. However the UK would benefit from much increased trade and freedom of movement agreements with Australia, Canada, and NZ. After all, the four of them are part of a very close knit military and intelligence arrangement. It is a very strange quirk of post-war history that they've managed to cut themselves off from each other in other matters.

I'd like to include Ireland in that group too, but I doubt they'd want to be included. Singapore is another one that could be considered.
But then surely you can have increased trade and movement with those countries whilst staying in the EU? And what honestly makes more sense, good trade relations with our neighbours or good trade relations with people living the other side of the world?

I'm not 100% sure but I really don't think part of EU membership is isolation from Aus, NZ, Singapore, China etc. Could be wrong though and if anyone knows I'm willing to be educated on it.
Nope. UK can't negotiate special situations for those countries. UK is cut off from the three finest products of its imperial legacy.
Oh really, so the UK can't have trade relationships with anyone without it being with rEU as well? Do you have a treaty source for this out of interest?

It doesn't make sense to me because so many countries (notably the US, Russia, China, Japan and the Middle East) buy the financial and legal services from the City, so we must be able to have some sort of relationships outwith the EU. Or is that because those relationships are with big global banks and multinational magic circle law firms etc so the relationship is with private companies and not the UK government?
You're talking at cross purposes.

We can of course trade with any other country or trade block in the world. However the terms of that trade are dictated by our membership of the EU - so tariffs on Bananas from Barbados (as an example that seems to come back time and time again) are dictated by Brussels and can't be waived by London.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Saint wrote:
Carrots and Peas wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Nope. UK can't negotiate special situations for those countries. UK is cut off from the three finest products of its imperial legacy.
Oh really, so the UK can't have trade relationships with anyone without it being with rEU as well? Do you have a treaty source for this out of interest?

It doesn't make sense to me because so many countries (notably the US, Russia, China, Japan and the Middle East) buy the financial and legal services from the City, so we must be able to have some sort of relationships outwith the EU. Or is that because those relationships are with big global banks and multinational magic circle law firms etc so the relationship is with private companies and not the UK government?
You're talking at cross purposes.

We can of course trade with any other country or trade block in the world. However the terms of that trade are dictated by our membership of the EU - so tariffs on Bananas from Barbados (as an example that seems to come back time and time again) are dictated by Brussels and can't be waived by London.
Ahhh ok thank you :thumbup: .
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Saint »

Seneca of the Night wrote:Of course you have the TPP and TTIP trade agreements swooping in over the top of all bilateral and existing trade agreements. But I do think that a pure free trade and freedom of movement block between the four main anglophone countries (minus the US) would be very desirable but just not possible given UK's entwinement with Europe.
for the UK it wouldn't make financial sense unless we could keep the same with the EU
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Carrots and Peas »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Saint wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:Of course you have the TPP and TTIP trade agreements swooping in over the top of all bilateral and existing trade agreements. But I do think that a pure free trade and freedom of movement block between the four main anglophone countries (minus the US) would be very desirable but just not possible given UK's entwinement with Europe.
for the UK it wouldn't make financial sense unless we could keep the same with the EU
I agree, but the EU is a merciless master, and is completely ignorant of, and unwilling to learn about the UK's historical ties with Canada, Australia and NZ. In fact there's probably more than a little malice in seeing Britain cut down to size.
It doesn't make any sense for the EU to be shrinking the British economy maliciously because that would cost them money. Talk about cutting off your noise to spite your face.
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Saint
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Saint »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Saint wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:Of course you have the TPP and TTIP trade agreements swooping in over the top of all bilateral and existing trade agreements. But I do think that a pure free trade and freedom of movement block between the four main anglophone countries (minus the US) would be very desirable but just not possible given UK's entwinement with Europe.
for the UK it wouldn't make financial sense unless we could keep the same with the EU
I agree, but the EU is a merciless master, and is completely ignorant of, and unwilling to learn about the UK's historical ties with Canada, Australia and NZ. In fact there's probably more than a little malice in seeing Britain cut down to size.
Up to a point I agree - I'm not sure that it's a conscious malice, but I think that there is something there, especially from the French. However, our geography more or less dictates who our closest trading partners need to be, and those are the cards that we've been dealt with.

Cameron's successes (limited such as they are) in getting some sort of accommodation out of the EU shows that we can influence things from the inside when we put our minds to it; however, if we will continue to just ignore the EU for large periods of time, and insist on sending UKIP MEPs to Brussels, then I'm afraid we get the EU we deserve. We need to be engaging with the EU on a daily basis if we want to have some form of real influence - that doesn't mean joining the Eurozone or being closer politically by any means
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Glaston »

Nobleman wrote:In
The Conservatives (75% of MPs)
Guido has it as 30% of tory MP's in
40% as out and rest undecided
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Alvise Martinengo »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35621079

EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

If we will continue to just ignore the EU for large periods of time, and insist on sending UKIP MEPs to Brussels, then I'm afraid we get the EU we deserve.
Fair point - it's crazy that so many of our representatives just want to make a mockery of it.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

The Man Without Fear wrote:Let months of lies, propaganda, speculation and tedious TV and radio interviews commence!

Indeed some people might even say if we vote out British people would lose their human rights.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by AND-y »

We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tim. »

Newby1 wrote:Just been reading up on an article which highlights the insanity of the EU (in todays Telegraph on paper).

70% of EU GDP is generated by services. There is no common market for services. 24 years and no common market for the most important area of European economies?

...
Huh?
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

AND-y wrote:We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
Perhaps so, but I wish I had more insight into what other countries think about the EU.

Does everyone else apart from the UK think it's perfect?

Do pothers think it's not great, but they are happy to put up with it?

Or do others want change, in which case why do we see this as the UK demanding change and others having accepted a little bit to keep us quiet.
Tim.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tim. »

SamShark wrote:
AND-y wrote:We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
Perhaps so, but I wish I had more insight into what other countries think about the EU.

Does everyone else apart from the UK think it's perfect?

Do pothers think it's not great, but they are happy to put up with it?

Or do others want change, in which case why do we see this as the UK demanding change and others having accepted a little bit to keep us quiet.
The EU poll this stuff twice annually. It's called Eurobarometer: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/arch ... b83_en.htm
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by bimboman »

SaintK wrote:
SamShark wrote:Old bastards want out, the younger generation want to stay - 18-29s the biggest stayers, 60+ the most likely "out" group
This "Old Bastard" most definitely wants to stay in :thumbup:

So does this old bastard from the other side of the spectrum.
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Tim. wrote:
SamShark wrote:
AND-y wrote:We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
Perhaps so, but I wish I had more insight into what other countries think about the EU.

Does everyone else apart from the UK think it's perfect?

Do pothers think it's not great, but they are happy to put up with it?

Or do others want change, in which case why do we see this as the UK demanding change and others having accepted a little bit to keep us quiet.
The EU poll this stuff twice annually. It's called Eurobarometer: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/arch ... b83_en.htm
Interesting, cheers. Will try to read it properly at some stage but for now this chart from it is interesting.

On average 41% of people are positive about it, 38% dont care either way and 19% feel total negativity. A few countries have a similar level of disdain to the UK

This was back last autumn

Image
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

I just noticed that the UK would need to give the EU 2 years notice of leaving.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tim. »

SamShark wrote:
Tim. wrote:
SamShark wrote:
AND-y wrote:We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
Perhaps so, but I wish I had more insight into what other countries think about the EU.

Does everyone else apart from the UK think it's perfect?

Do pothers think it's not great, but they are happy to put up with it?

Or do others want change, in which case why do we see this as the UK demanding change and others having accepted a little bit to keep us quiet.
The EU poll this stuff twice annually. It's called Eurobarometer: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/arch ... b83_en.htm
Interesting, cheers. Will try to read it properly at some stage but for now this chart from it is interesting.

On average 41% of people are positive about it, 38% dont care either way and 19% feel total negativity. A few countries have a similar level of disdain to the UK

This was back last autumn
Yes those countries are by and large skint or currently flooded with immigrants. The UK's attitude to Europe is quite bizarre.
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SamShark
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Tim. wrote:
SamShark wrote:
Tim. wrote:
SamShark wrote:
AND-y wrote:We're obviously gonna get an in vote, might be closer than expected, and the world will see us as a bunch of entitled whiners. Again.
Perhaps so, but I wish I had more insight into what other countries think about the EU.

Does everyone else apart from the UK think it's perfect?

Do pothers think it's not great, but they are happy to put up with it?

Or do others want change, in which case why do we see this as the UK demanding change and others having accepted a little bit to keep us quiet.
The EU poll this stuff twice annually. It's called Eurobarometer: http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/arch ... b83_en.htm
Interesting, cheers. Will try to read it properly at some stage but for now this chart from it is interesting.

On average 41% of people are positive about it, 38% dont care either way and 19% feel total negativity. A few countries have a similar level of disdain to the UK

This was back last autumn
Yes those countries are by and large skint or currently flooded with immigrants. The UK's attitude to Europe is quite bizarre.
I was also talking about Holland, Belgium, France, Italy - they are also in the 20%s of people who thought the EU was wholly negative
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by Tim. »

SamShark wrote:I just noticed that the UK would need to give the EU 2 years notice of leaving.
That is a maximum not minimum. Negotiations and setting the exit date will not exceed 2 years.
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Re: OFFICIAL EU/UK referendum thread

Post by SamShark »

Here’s how to argue with a Brexiter – and win
Timothy Garton Ash

A new battle of Britain has begun. On its outcome will depend the fate of two unions: the United Kingdom and the European Union. If the English vote to leave the EU, the Scots will vote to leave the UK. There will then be no Britain. Meanwhile, the shock of Brexit to a continent already staggering under many crises could spell the beginning of the end of the European Union.

So if you care about Britain or Europe, and even more if you care about Britain and Europe, please join this good fight. The final negotiation in Brussels was bruising, and certainly not the kick-off anyone would want, but there is still everything to play for.

Continental Europeans often assume that England is, in its heart of oak, incorrigibly hostile to Europe. This is not true. For decades now, the best pollsters have found that on the EU there is a large undecided middle which can go either way. That was the case in the run-up to the 1975 referendum, which saw a large swing from out to in, and it’s true today: 42% of those who tell ComRes they will vote in or out also say they could still change their minds.

I know, from many hostile online comments, that the Guardian has some fiercely Eurosceptic followers, but I’m now mainly addressing the majority of our readers, whether British or not, who want Britain to stay in the EU. It’s a peculiarity of this referendum that Commonwealth citizens may vote in it, whereas French, Italians and Germans who have lived here for many years, and are much more directly affected, may not. But whether or not you have a vote, you still have a voice. Raise it, please, in the pub, in the office or in the friend’s living room.

Here are just a few of the arguments you could make. First of all, the details of the deal are not the crucial issue. Months ago, when David Cameron revealed his renegotiation agenda, it was already clear that this was not going to be a fundamental redefinition of Britain’s relationship with the EU. Nor would we suddenly find ourselves in “a reformed Europe”.

On this, Eurosceptics are right: Cameron’s demands were less than he pumped them up to be, and inevitably, given that 27 other European countries had to be satisfied, what he achieved is even more modest. But it would be madness to let a decision about the economic and political future of Britain for decades ahead hinge on the detail of an “emergency brake” on in-work benefits for migrants.

Brexit is riskier than Bremain. This is incontestable. We know what it’s like being a member of the EU. We don’t know what it would be like outside.

The negotiation of Brexit would be long and bloody. Nigel Lawson blithely suggests that it would be easy: we just repeal the 1972 European Communities Act and with one bound John Bull is free.

Our continental partners would give us generous access to the single market through a free trade agreement “that they need far more than we do”. In your dreams. Read the careful analysis by the longtime legal chief of the EU, Jean-Claude Piris, to see what a nightmare of legal unravelling it would be. Talk to continental politicians. What we just saw in Brussels was the most that they are prepared to do to keep us in. They would do us no favours if we were leaving.

Many of our European partners privately envy us the position of being outside the Schengen area and the ill-designed eurozone, but in all the parts that we want to be in. The Brussels deal shows that our European partners have accepted that for the foreseeable future Britain wishes to stop at roughly its current stage of integration. If there is a “best of both worlds”, it is this – and not Brexit.

It is cold outside. The more you look at Norway or Switzerland, the less attractive their position appears, and a clear majority of business and union leaders don’t want to take this gamble. The EU has used the attraction of its single market of 500 million consumers to secure favourable free-trade deals with much of the world. It defies logic to think that Britain would get better deals on its own. Michael B Froman, the United States trade representative, said last year that no free trade agreement would exist with Britain if it left the EU, and the US would have no interest in negotiating one.

Being in the EU helps keep us safe from terrorism and international crime. Don’t listen to me, listen to the Conservative home secretary, Theresa May. This is why she has kept Britain in the most important European networks for police and judicial cooperation, and will argue for Britain to stay in the EU.

It’s also vital to national security. Our highest-ranking soldier, Field Marshal Lord Bramall – no starry-eyed Europhile – warns that if we left, “a broken and demoralised Europe just across the Channel” would imperil our security. If we stay, we can be one of the leaders of a European foreign policy that addresses the root causes of problems such as Middle East refugee flows. Vladimir Putin and Marine Le Pen want us to leave. Barack Obama, Angela Merkel and all our traditional friends, in Europe, North America and the Commonwealth, want us to stay. Need I say more?

Brexit would be disastrous for Ireland. The former Irish prime minister John Bruton says it would “undo much of the work of the peace process and create huge questions over borders and labour market access”. There are more than 380,000 Irish citizens living in Britain, who do have a vote in this referendum, and millions of Brits (including me) with Irish ancestry. If you care about Ireland, vote to remain.

Scotland would leave the UK. If you care about that, vote to remain.

The EU can be changed. While the reforms Cameron has secured are modest, there’s a swelling chorus of voices in countries like Germany saying not just “We must do this, reluctantly, to keep Britain in”, but “We really do need to reform the EU”. If Britain remains, the reform lobby is strong; if it leaves, much weaker.

Most of these arguments are from prudence, not visionary optimism – and none the worse for that. Eurosceptics will decry them as “scaremongering”. Well, I suppose you might call it scaremongering if someone asks you not to jump off the deck of an ocean liner, without a lifebelt, in a force nine storm. Actually, it’s common sense.
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