Ref question: flanker scrummaging

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Murdoch
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Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Murdoch »

This is for the refs and bored law experts: What is the law situation around scrummaging at flanker, specifically slipping your bind off your lock onto your prop to aid in your props ability to handle a difficult opponent. Basically becoming a 4th front rower.

Cantabs like AC will remember Reuben Thorne used to do it fairly regularly as did McCaw as well I think.

I have always done it when I can as well but got pinged for it on the weekend. Is there a specific law that addresses it? Our tighthead was struggling with a troublesome loosehead so I moved from 8 to flank to help our prop out. All of a sudden our scrum was stable but their 1 complained about it and the ref warned me which had me back in my box.

Is it actually illegal? I remain bound the whole time and all I'm really doing is keeping the loosehead honest. cheers
Yer Man
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Yer Man »

Everyone not in the front row must bind onto a lock.
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Murdoch wrote:
Is it actually illegal?
Not even close to being legal. It gets pinged now and again...but, unlike your scenario, I see it most of the time being used by the attacking scrum to drive home their advantage. The reason I think the refs miss it a lot is that the opposition team are invariably already backpedaling/starting to disintegrate, so it gets lost in he melee.
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lorcanoworms
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by lorcanoworms »

PO'M has been doing it in every match this year, he is a very bad man.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Mog The Almighty »

I dunno, sounds totally illegal to me. But I've seen it. I've also seem the 8 bimd between the flanker and lock on one side. Played for 20+ years and fůcked if I know the legal details.

I've also seen flanker push (and bind) basically at right angles to stop a scrum wheeling. I can't remember particulars but zI seem to recall that's illegal too.
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Lemoentjie
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Lemoentjie »

It's completely illegal, and referees are too soft on it. It's cheating in plain sight (no wonder NZ's favourite captain is being mentioned as someone that did it).
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Lenny
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Lenny »

lorcanoworms wrote:PO'M has been doing it in every match this year, he is a very bad man.
Actually last Saturday he changed his bind just before the set and bound on the lock at every scrum. It seems to be some pre scrum set up, and not sure if he did the same thing (changing to a legal bind) v Leinster the week before,
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Lemoentjie wrote:It's completely illegal, and referees are too soft on it. It's cheating in plain sight (no wonder NZ's favourite captain is being mentioned as someone that did it).
Lets be honest, pretty much every flanker does it these days. As a scrum begins to dinitergarte, 'accidentally on purpose' slipping your bind and ending up as a 4th prop happens pretty much every scrum.

Although, it is worth pointing out, as the OP alludes, that it is, like many inventions of cheating within rugby, of Kiwi origin.
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Sandstorm
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Sandstorm »

Jeff the Bear wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote:It's completely illegal, and referees are too soft on it. It's cheating in plain sight (no wonder NZ's favourite captain is being mentioned as someone that did it).
Lets be honest, pretty much every flanker does it these days. As a scrum begins to dinitergarte, 'accidentally on purpose' slipping your bind and ending up as a 4th prop happens pretty much every scrum.

Although, it is worth pointing out, as the OP alludes, that it is, like many inventions of cheating within rugby, of Kiwi origin.
Rob Louw used to do it for WP in the 80s. The GOAT did not invent it. :lol:
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lorcanoworms
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by lorcanoworms »

The Exeter coach Baxter? missed a trick in not telling his players to bring this to sirs attention.
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Toro
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Toro »

I struggle to see how you can help your prop by sliding up beside him as opposed to having you shoulder in his glutes. I assume you mean you end up binding on the opposition prop as well?
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JM2K6
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by JM2K6 »

Toro wrote:I struggle to see how you can help your prop by sliding up beside him as opposed to having you shoulder in his glutes. I assume you mean you end up binding on the opposition prop as well?
Yes, if the scrum is turning in you end up shoving into the opposition prop.
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Toro
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Toro »

JM2K6 wrote:
Toro wrote:I struggle to see how you can help your prop by sliding up beside him as opposed to having you shoulder in his glutes. I assume you mean you end up binding on the opposition prop as well?
Yes, if the scrum is turning in you end up shoving into the opposition prop.
Right, that's the only time I've seen it, and usually when a team wants to ram home an advantage. But I'm struggling to see how doing this when your tight is getting hammered could make the scrum more stable as in the OP. Just not understanding the mechanics unless by doing so he's keeping their LH squarer or taking half the push.

I can also see how they get away with as a scrum is folding in but if it stays stable and a flanker it on the prop it'd be a bit too obvious shirley.
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JM2K6
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by JM2K6 »

Toro wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Toro wrote:I struggle to see how you can help your prop by sliding up beside him as opposed to having you shoulder in his glutes. I assume you mean you end up binding on the opposition prop as well?
Yes, if the scrum is turning in you end up shoving into the opposition prop.
Right, that's the only time I've seen it, and usually when a team wants to ram home an advantage. But I'm struggling to see how doing this when your tight is getting hammered could make the scrum more stable as in the OP. Just not understanding the mechanics unless by doing so he's keeping their LH squarer or taking half the push.

I can also see how they get away with as a scrum is folding in but if it stays stable and a flanker it on the prop it'd be a bit too obvious shirley.
I agree with you, but I suppose the difference is a classic flanker position allows for more power, whereas binding on the prop probably allows for more stability by helping him stay up.

Too many flankers these days pop their heads up at the first opportunity and shirk their scrummaging duties :x
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Yourmother
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Yourmother »

Robshaw is one I noticed would do this. Also to hide his prop boring in.
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by BBB »

Sandstorm wrote:
Jeff the Bear wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote:It's completely illegal, and referees are too soft on it. It's cheating in plain sight (no wonder NZ's favourite captain is being mentioned as someone that did it).
Lets be honest, pretty much every flanker does it these days. As a scrum begins to dinitergarte, 'accidentally on purpose' slipping your bind and ending up as a 4th prop happens pretty much every scrum.

Although, it is worth pointing out, as the OP alludes, that it is, like many inventions of cheating within rugby, of Kiwi origin.
Rob Louw used to do it for WP in the 80s. The GOAT did not invent it. :lol:
:lol:

No doubt there were others before him as well.
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Nolanator »

Jeff the Bear wrote:
Lemoentjie wrote:It's completely illegal, and referees are too soft on it. It's cheating in plain sight (no wonder NZ's favourite captain is being mentioned as someone that did it).
Lets be honest, pretty much every flanker does it these days. As a scrum begins to dinitergarte, 'accidentally on purpose' slipping your bind and ending up as a 4th prop happens pretty much every scrum.

Although, it is worth pointing out, as the OP alludes, that it is, like many inventions of cheating within rugby, of Kiwi origin.
A free shot at the opposition LHP in exposed his ribs while the ref is checking your feed on the far side of the scrum. Great fun. :thumbup:
Sometimes it even buys you a punch but you're distracting him.
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Insane_Homer
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Insane_Homer »

LAW 19 Scrum
FORMING A SCRUM
7. The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

Sanction: Penalty.
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sewa
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by sewa »

Lenny wrote:
lorcanoworms wrote:PO'M has been doing it in every match this year, he is a very bad man.
Actually last Saturday he changed his bind just before the set and bound on the lock at every scrum. It seems to be some pre scrum set up, and not sure if he did the same thing (changing to a legal bind) v Leinster the week before,
I didn't see this late readjustment and I was specifically looking for it as I knew certain losers here like Rfurlong would be whinging
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Murdoch
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Murdoch »

Insane_Homer wrote:
LAW 19 Scrum
FORMING A SCRUM
7. The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

Sanction: Penalty.
Shit. Should have known that.

Cheers
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Murdoch
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by Murdoch »

JM2K6 wrote:
Toro wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Toro wrote:I struggle to see how you can help your prop by sliding up beside him as opposed to having you shoulder in his glutes. I assume you mean you end up binding on the opposition prop as well?
Yes, if the scrum is turning in you end up shoving into the opposition prop.
Right, that's the only time I've seen it, and usually when a team wants to ram home an advantage. But I'm struggling to see how doing this when your tight is getting hammered could make the scrum more stable as in the OP. Just not understanding the mechanics unless by doing so he's keeping their LH squarer or taking half the push.

I can also see how they get away with as a scrum is folding in but if it stays stable and a flanker it on the prop it'd be a bit too obvious shirley.
I agree with you, but I suppose the difference is a classic flanker position allows for more power, whereas binding on the prop probably allows for more stability by helping him stay up.

Too many flankers these days pop their heads up at the first opportunity and shirk their scrummaging duties :x
It doesn't matter how much your pushing on your prop if he's not transferring it.
I came up and in to stop their LHP from getting underneath our guy. I was enough of a disruption to stop him from doing his thing. Overall their wasn't really a big difference in size or power between the scrums, it was just that one individual battle that we were losing that was rogering us.
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The Man Without Fear
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Re: Ref question: flanker scrummaging

Post by The Man Without Fear »

I think we need to hear from Jonny May on this.
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