Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

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openclashXX
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by openclashXX »

I think in successful teams the hooker tends to set the tone of the tight five and the forward pack as a whole. they're so heavily involved in every aspect of play that when hookers are scrummaging well, throwing well, carrying hard and being very aggressive the whole forward pack follows and plays at that level

Festuccia was utter rubbish today, he is just nowhere near the quality of the top hookers in the Premiership and in Europe, and his constant mistakes at set-piece and in open play seemed to set the tone of the Wasps tight five generally
bimboman
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by bimboman »

DragsterDriver wrote:To be fair to gopperth his pack got smashed up, wasps couldn't get any go forward. They did well playing on the backfoot all game.

Yep haskells stemmed a flood at times. I f ing hate Saracens.
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Johnny Marrmight
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Johnny Marrmight »

openclashXX wrote:I think in successful teams the hooker tends to set the tone of the tight five and the forward pack as a whole. they're so heavily involved in every aspect of play that when hookers are scrummaging well, throwing well, carrying hard and being very aggressive the whole forward pack follows and plays at that level

Festuccia was utter rubbish today, he is just nowhere near the quality of the top hookers in the Premiership and in Europe, and his constant mistakes at set-piece and in open play seemed to set the tone of the Wasps tight five generally
Hooker is one of the best positions on the pitch IMO.

- front row of scrum, so get to do the nightly stuff

- throwing in at lineout

- tight rucking and mauling but also license to act like an auxiliary 8, running with the ball a fair bit


Your point stands: given the hooker's crucial roles and significant involvement, if he's playing bad then it's going to massively impact the team
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Torquemada 1420
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

openclashXX wrote:I think in successful teams the hooker tends to set the tone of the tight five and the forward pack as a whole. they're so heavily involved in every aspect of play that when hookers are scrummaging well, throwing well, carrying hard and being very aggressive the whole forward pack follows and plays at that level

Festuccia was utter rubbish today, he is just nowhere near the quality of the top hookers in the Premiership and in Europe, and his constant mistakes at set-piece and in open play seemed to set the tone of the Wasps tight five generally
Didn't see the game but presume he was picked because Johnson throws no straighter than a Welsh lass at a drain after a heavy night in Wind St.
piquant
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

SamShark wrote:
piquant wrote:
henry wrote:Saracens are confirmed salary cap abusers, yes?

Leicester are suspected salary cap abusers, yes?

And Racing are typical French Moneybag mercenaries, yes?

Club rugby. Rude health.
it was ever thus though, when Ospreys and Cardiff or Munster and Leinster were making regular forays into the latter stages of the HEC they were big spenders on wages.
That was good/traditional/honest money though, not spiv money.
No doubt when they borrowed to fund that it was different to Sarries building debts, maybe they even got an ethical loan from Paul Flowers at the Co-op
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AND-y
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by AND-y »

SamShark wrote:
piquant wrote:
henry wrote:Saracens are confirmed salary cap abusers, yes?

Leicester are suspected salary cap abusers, yes?

And Racing are typical French Moneybag mercenaries, yes?

Club rugby. Rude health.
it was ever thus though, when Ospreys and Cardiff or Munster and Leinster were making regular forays into the latter stages of the HEC they were big spenders on wages.
That was good/traditional/honest money though, not spiv money.
Hmm, I think piquants post there might be a little misleading and bear in mind I have not really been up in arms about all this.
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paddyor
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by paddyor »

Silver on a rugby thread. What was that like?
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Sydvicious
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Sydvicious »

I was at the game with my FIL. I didn't have a dog in the fight, but he is a Wasps supporter, so I cheered them on as well. Unfortunately, we were among the Sarries supporters and what a bunch of whinging twats they are!
They went on and on about the try that was "disallowed", despite seeing with their own eyes that Ashton shoulder charged Halai.
Basically, every single decision that went against them was some sort of conspiracy. And I mean every decision.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Kid A »

Farrell cited for his awful challenge.
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Plastic Sarrie
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Plastic Sarrie »

Fair play to Robson :thumbup:

Image

I'm not sure I'd be quite so good humoured.
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theo
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by theo »

Only just watched the match.

Really not sure what Alex Goode was doing for the Robson try.
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Portcullis Irish
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Portcullis Irish »

See Farrell McIntyre both deservedly in the dock but have to say think Piatau Jnr(?) lucky not to be charged for his swinging arm in the 1st half - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36130239.

Piatau challenge 31:50 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osySHv2vPgo :x
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Raggs »

Goode gets away with a late shoulder charge on Wade in the Robson try. Wyles gets away with no yellow for a deliberate knock on preventing wade + 1 getting a clear charge for the line (perhaps Goode was back there, but still I'd back 2 wasps including wade). Ashton gets away with a high tackle collar grab on Wade, and a shoulder charge on Piutau.

Piutau was the shoulder with the arms coming around, pen at absolute worst. Didn't think Farrell would get cited to be honest.

Glad Itoje got a retrospective yellow, even if it's relatively meaningless.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

Raggs wrote:Goode gets away with a late shoulder charge on Wade in the Robson try. Wyles gets away with no yellow for a deliberate knock on preventing wade + 1 getting a clear charge for the line (perhaps Goode was back there, but still I'd back 2 wasps including wade). Ashton gets away with a high tackle collar grab on Wade, and a shoulder charge on Piutau.

Piutau was the shoulder with the arms coming around, pen at absolute worst. Didn't think Farrell would get cited to be honest.

Glad Itoje got a retrospective yellow, even if it's relatively meaningless.
Piutau was a swinging arm, but it didn't do much. Farrell knocked a player out and injured him off the pitch, which is going to get you into more trouble. On Goode, it was late, and had Wasps not scored if should perhaps have been a PT and certainly a yellow, but as Wasps did score I think it fair enough it was let go as it was a penalty offence not dangerous given the cynical play didn't amount to anything.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

I did as an aside like that as soon as Farrell was off that Goode took the time whilst Robson was being treated to practice some kicking, very professional.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Farrell had lost his head again.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote:Farrell had lost his head again.
The ill-disciplined iceman
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Raggs
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Raggs »

I'm not upset with them not being given, just fancy pointing out that the opinion some sarries fans have that they were hard done by isn't entirely correct.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

Raggs wrote:I'm not upset with them not being given, just fancy pointing out that the opinion some sarries fans have that they were hard done by isn't entirely correct.
You're not going to sway them with facts.
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Petros
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Petros »

official crowd 16,820 nearly 8,000 under capacity

sarries apparently didn't even sell their initial ticket allocation of ca 6,000 tickets.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by TokenSarriesFan »

piquant wrote:
Raggs wrote:I'm not upset with them not being given, just fancy pointing out that the opinion some sarries fans have that they were hard done by isn't entirely correct.
You're not going to sway them with facts.
What facts?

I saw a lot of opinions, a great deal of which I agreed with, but opinions none the less.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Dunnikin Diver »

Raggs wrote:I'm not upset with them not being given, just fancy pointing out that the opinion some sarries fans have that they were hard done by isn't entirely correct.
Has that been the case?

For one I am very relieved we got though that. Was one of the most error-filled performances for a while, verging on choking in some quarters, and was just waiting on Wade to do the damage (or Ashton to gift it - while Farrell is seen as a liability by some, at least his mistakes are largely while actually trying to play the game, rather than complete fuckwittery when the ball is dead).

As an aside, Wade should be playing for England. All players have their strengths and weaknesses, but his pluses need to be seen on the highest stage. Were I that way inclined. I'd value seeing him well worth the price of a Wasps season ticket
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Dunnikin Diver »

Petros wrote:official crowd 16,820 nearly 8,000 under capacity

sarries apparently didn't even sell their initial ticket allocation of ca 6,000 tickets.
Our fan base is both small, and not necessarily dripping in cash. While the recent success has been very enjoyable, it does require some planning as to what later-stage games to go to.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Petros »

Interesting change of tune from Tubby today
Stuart Barnes: Soft Farrell sentence comes close to condoning violence


Owen Farrell is a serial swinging arm; make that a serial swinging right arm. For Wednesday night’s disciplinary committee to come up with the verdict it did after at one time sentencing him to a three-week ban is distressing.

The verdict started well. Having upheld the opinion of the citing officer, they found Farrell guilty of “an act of foul play that warranted a red card”.

Do I think he was aiming for the head? Most definitely not but was it dangerous anyway; absolutely
It is hard to disagree with the next part of the judgment, either. Sanctions for foul play have three entry points. The lowest is two weeks, the mid-range begins at six weeks, the top end at ten. The appropriate entry is based on a number of assessments. Whether it was intentional, whether or not it caused injuries and whether or not it had any effect on the relevant match?

Sportingly, Dai Young, the Wasps director of rugby, said that the injury Farrell caused, a concussion that took Dan Robson, his scrum half, from the field of play, was not the reason for his side’s 24-17 defeat by Saracens in the European Champions Cup last weekend. Nobody likes a whingeing coach, although Young also described the incident as “a short arm to the head”. Ah, but was it an intentional short arm to the head? There the matter becomes contentious. There is no question that Robson was slipping as Farrell’s right arm swung in the scrum half’s direction.

Do I think he was aiming for the head? Most definitely not but was it dangerous anyway; absolutely. The accidental collision with the head was a sound reason for the low entry point ban of two weeks. Fair enough. But in rugby union’s quest for disciplinary justice, what came next is a joke. The committee added another week to the two-week sanction “as a deterrent in line with World Rugby’s memoranda regarding dangerous tackles”. Understandably World Rugby, the game’s governing body, wants to be seen to be as draconian as possible on the subject of dangerous play.


A two-week ban means that Farrell misses the final two weeks of the regular season. Saracens have qualified for the Aviva Premiership play-offs. That third week, the one that shows that the disciplinary committee has some balls, would take him out of the Champions Cup final on May 14. That would be a blow to Saracens and Farrell, whose role this season has been hugely positive. That third week is a real “deterrent”, a statement of intent.

Or it would have been if not for what came next. After adding the extra week, the sanctions were “then reduced . . . by one week due to the player’s clean disciplinary record, good character and excellent conduct at the hearing”. He’s a tough lad is Owen, he can be brutal in his will to win, but few doubt the innate decency of the man off the field and I am sure his mum and dad have brought him up to mind his p’s and q’s in polite company. But character and how he conducts himself at a hearing should have nothing to do with the length of sentence.

What is relevant is the disciplinary record. Luckily Farrell has “a clean one”. I am not sure when rugby union’s disciplinary slates are wiped clean, but I am certain that the same referee who yellow-carded Farrell on Saturday, Romain Poite, flourished the same colour card when England played Australia as recently as the autumn.

Matt Giteau was laid out for a while, but unlike Robson was able to recover and serve up a hot dish of revenge with the match-clinching try. To remind myself of those events, I turned to YouTube. There it is: a dangerous challenge (this one off the ball) with the right arm and shoulder working in tandem to level the Australian. Is the World Cup so far in the past that such reckless play can be forgotten and overlooked?

Once you are on YouTube you might as well remind yourself of the injury that forced Anthony Watson from the field in last season’s Premiership final. It occurred within the first few minutes and, doubtless, the adrenaline of the final played a significant part, but whose right arm left the England wing prone and, like Robson, out of action? No need to guess.

McIntyre of Wasps walks off the field after being shown a yellow card for kicking out at an opponent
DAVID ROGERS/GETTY IMAGES
While the two-week bans given to Joe Marler and Simon McIntyre for kicking out at an opponent were sensible reflections on acts that were born of stupidity and frustration, the verdict in the Farrell case could come back to haunt the disciplinary bodies.

Farrell may not set out to harm his fellow professionals, but the apparently reckless way in which he interprets the tackle means that the game appears to be out on the edge, close to condoning violence. It is true that Robson slipped, but this is the third time in less than a year that players have been left prone by Farrell tackles of excessive nature.

To reduce his ban and allow him to play in the European final because of his clean disciplinary nature is misleading at best, a deception at worst. Farrell’s lunge at Robson was not his finest moment, but Wednesday’s capitulation by the disciplinary panel before Richard Smith, the RFU’s QC, Mark McCall, the Saracens director of rugby, and Paul Gustard, the England and former Saracens defence coach, was infinitely worse for rugby union.
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DragsterDriver
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by DragsterDriver »

Such a bellend- complete contradiction of his commentary.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

DragsterDriver wrote:Such a bellend- complete contradiction of his commentary.
In fairness he might have been plastered whilst doing commentary, or when penning that article, or indeed for both. It does seem a bit of a skew sideways just on the one incident from Barnes, that said I think a lot of people aren't happy at just how many past incidents are put aside by the various disciplinary panels as not being relevant.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by aitch@wasps »

Petros wrote:official crowd 16,820 nearly 8,000 under capacity

sarries apparently didn't even sell their initial ticket allocation of ca 6,000 tickets.
And a good deal of those they did sell were purchased by Wasps supporters who were panicking that the Wasps allocation would be snapped up by season ticket holders.
Those Sarries fans saying that they were saving their hard-earned for the later stages of the competition? Let's just see how many turn up in Lyon... :roll:

Mind you, I wouldn't be hasty in shelling out to watch the boring style of rugby they play, I can just as easily sleep in the comfort of my own bed.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by piquant »

aitch@wasps wrote:
Mind you, I wouldn't be hasty in shelling out to watch the boring style of rugby they play, I can just as easily sleep in the comfort of my own bed.

They have progressed a huge amount and now play a fair amount of quite decent stuff. What perhaps makes their games more boring is they have a low error count, make good exit plays, and put the other side under lots of pressure which tends to stop many points being given up. So whilst they're giving up far less cheap points than most sides I'm not sure that's boring, rather it's just a well-drilled side, others are trying to do similar but oddly (or maybe reasonably) that their ineptness leads to more open games is often perceived as a better watch.
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Re: Wasps vs Saracens ECC Semi-Final Thread

Post by Gospel »

piquant wrote:
aitch@wasps wrote:
Mind you, I wouldn't be hasty in shelling out to watch the boring style of rugby they play, I can just as easily sleep in the comfort of my own bed.

They have progressed a huge amount and now play a fair amount of quite decent stuff. What perhaps makes their games more boring is they have a low error count, make good exit plays, and put the other side under lots of pressure which tends to stop many points being given up. So whilst they're giving up far less cheap points than most sides I'm not sure that's boring, rather it's just a well-drilled side, others are trying to do similar but oddly (or maybe reasonably) that their ineptness leads to more open games is often perceived as a better watch.
They're boring until they get in the ascendency. Sarries strangle teams for possession and deny them territory. It's a very English style to be fair and hugely effective. But it can make your eyes bleed.
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