ex-POTUS DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

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shanky
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by shanky »

Donald had better hope that Russia didn't meddle...

Someone who claims "no one has been tougher on Russia than me", would be rightly nervous, otherwise.


Like Voltaire on his deathbed (when asked to renounce Satan), "I don't think this is the time to be making enemies".
Santa
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Santa »

The old bait and switch. Russiagate was about links between Trump (and team) and Russia in relation to the 2016 election. We all agree that Russia meddled in the election in some way as they do in every election.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BillW »

TheFrog wrote:Image


This deserves a price. I mean, these guys have an amazing sense of humour! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Unless... It's an electoral promise? :lol:

So how is he going to fulfill this promise?

Close down CNN, New York Times, Washington Post etc?
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shanky
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by shanky »

Santa wrote:The old bait and switch. Russiagate was about links between Trump (and team) and Russia in relation to the 2016 election. We all agree that Russia meddled in the election in some way as they do in every election.
errrr, No

His main defence has been that he didn't/couldn't have colluded with the Russians because he's been bigly hard on them ever since (therefore, no quid pro quo in evidence, therefore it was all a hoax)

These are his words, not mine.
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AND-y
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by AND-y »

"Neo-Maoism" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Aye that's a real danger in the West alright. Fuckin hell..
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by AlanBengio »

Santa wrote:
BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:I do not think Trump is going to save the world. Only a moron would think that I think that.
Then what is the angle, why Trump?

Better question, why Trump STILL?
Because he is still the only one oriented to combat the twin threats of internal dissolution through the hyper-liberalism of woke neo-Maoism and leftist identity politics, and the the rise of the new civilisation blocs, especially China. He's not intellectual about it and he is a poor human being, but he has the qualities for the fight, and nobody else has shown an understanding of what is happening or an aptitude to deal with it.

And the fights are different.

Internally it is about preserving the elements of western civ that enabled the development of the modern Europe and the US (e.g. free thought, speech and enquiry etc.).

Externally it is about withdrawing from certain kinds of relationship and focussing on others; essentially reducing globalism to primarily encompass countries within the Western civilisation bloc and recognising that other blocs have their own agendas, norms and approaches and that they are in competition with the Western bloc not alignment with it. Sure they can be traded with etc. but only within certain parameters, and never to the detriment of the US. End all military adventurism beyond the 'borders' of the Western bloc. Abandon all universalising projects and agendas. They are bollocks.

Biden is a useless moron who understands none of this and his backers are solidly on the wrong side of each of those fights.

And I'm not sure that Trump can actually do much against all of this. It may all be too far gone. It's the best throw of the dice though.

Anyway all of this has been explained several time before and the question still gets asked. Agree with it or not. The point is that is why Trump.
WTF you talking about... did you not notice that Trump basically abdicated US leadership during these years?
If US was still the US it was (before Trump), it would be leading the charge against Covid right now (as an example - as the Country always had); it would not navigate through it like a vessel with no sails
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Kiwias »

BillW wrote:
TheFrog wrote:Image


This deserves a price. I mean, these guys have an amazing sense of humour! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Unless... It's an electoral promise? :lol:

So how is he going to fulfill this promise?

Close down CNN, New York Times, Washington Post etc?
Much simpler: keep his fucking gob shut.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by eugenefraxby »

I hate Thursdays. Firstly the bins need to be out by 7am. There’s a board zoom at 8. And then I have to go up against all the neo-Maoism.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Sawtooth the Beaver »

I'm curious to know what Western values will be preserved if you vote Trump, from a distance it would seem that he is actively attacking the ones worth retaining.

In addition, how do you square any economic policy with his climate denial and active obstruction to addressing it? I really can't see any economic gains that are going to cancel out the cost of the displacement of 13 million people in the US alone from sea level rises.

As with pandemics Trumps bullshit will cause great damage only next time it will be global damage
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Nolanator »

Thomas wrote:
Sefton wrote:
Because he is still the only one oriented to combat the twin threats of internal dissolution through the hyper-liberalism of woke neo-Maoism and leftist identity politics,
Holy shit :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol:

It gets funnier the more you read it.
This is from a random comment generator, isn't it?
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

The man some people are hoping will save Western Civilization from ruin:
“It was 30 to 35 questions,” Mr. Trump said. “The first questions are very easy. The last questions are much more difficult. Like a memory question. It’s, like, you’ll go: Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV. So they say, ‘Could you repeat that?’ So I said, ‘Yeah. It’s: Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.’”

“‘OK, that’s very good. If you get it in order you get extra points,’” Mr. Trump said a doctor told him. “OK, now he’s asking you other questions, other questions, and then, 10 minutes, 15, 20 minutes later they say, ‘Remember that first question — not the first — but the 10th question? Give us that again. Can you do that again?’”

“And you go: ‘Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV,’” Mr. Trump said. “If you get it in order, you get extra points.”

“They said nobody gets it in order,” Mr. Trump said. “It’s actually not that easy, but for me, it was easy. And that’s not an easy question. In other words, they ask it to you, they give you five names and you have to repeat ’em. And that’s OK. If you repeat ’em out of order, it’s OK, but, you know, it’s not as good. But when you go back about 20, 25 minutes later and they say go back to that — they don’t tell you this — ‘Go back to that question and repeat ’em, can you do it?’ And you go: ‘Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.’

“They say, ‘That’s amazing. How did you do that?’” Mr. Trump continued. “I do it because I have, like, a good memory, because I’m cognitively there. Now, Joe should take that test, because something’s going on. And, and, I say this with respect. I mean — going to probably happen to all of us, right? You know? It’s going to happen.”
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Santa »

Nobody going to watch the John Gray clip? He was Emeritus Professor of European Thought at the LSE.

Thought not. :thumbup:
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BokJock
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

I see Trump is warning of the dangers of Mexican immigrants for spreading the virus

whistle whistle
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Leinster in London
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Leinster in London »

Employing only the best people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53509482
The US ambassador to the UK has denied reports he made "insensitive" remarks about race and gender to embassy staff.

CNN said Woody Johnson had been investigated by US officials after making "generalisations about black men" and "cringeworthy" comments about women's looks.

But the diplomat tweeted that the claims were "totally inconsistent with my longstanding record and values".

Mr Johnson was named ambassador to the UK by President Donald Trump in 2017.

CNN also reported Mr Johnson had sought to promote the president's business interests in the UK by asking politicians if the Open Championship golf tournament could be played at Mr Trump's Turnberry course.

But Mr Johnson, who is part-owner of NFL team the New York Jets, denied that claim too.

"I have followed the ethical rules and requirements of my office at all times," he wrote on social media.

Asked about the allegation at a White House press conference on Wednesday, President Trump said he had never spoken to Mr Johnson about the matter.
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BokJock
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

Leinster in London wrote:Employing only the best people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53509482
The US ambassador to the UK has denied reports he made "insensitive" remarks about race and gender to embassy staff.

CNN said Woody Johnson had been investigated by US officials after making "generalisations about black men" and "cringeworthy" comments about women's looks.

But the diplomat tweeted that the claims were "totally inconsistent with my longstanding record and values".

Mr Johnson was named ambassador to the UK by President Donald Trump in 2017.

CNN also reported Mr Johnson had sought to promote the president's business interests in the UK by asking politicians if the Open Championship golf tournament could be played at Mr Trump's Turnberry course.

But Mr Johnson, who is part-owner of NFL team the New York Jets, denied that claim too.

"I have followed the ethical rules and requirements of my office at all times," he wrote on social media.

Asked about the allegation at a White House press conference on Wednesday, President Trump said he had never spoken to Mr Johnson about the matter.
The swamp being successfully drained :thumbup:

How high's the water mama....
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by piquant »

piquant wrote:A company submits a contract with the US army bidding for a share of constructing part of the border wall, the US army corp of engineers finds the company has no record of working on construction of this type and a poor environmental record and doesn't put the company forward as one of the preferred list of candidates.

Owner of the company, Fisher Sand & Gravel, goes on Fox News however and says he could build the wall, faster, better and cheaper than anyone else, that once he's in like Tom Brady he wouldn't leave the field and he'd get the job done, and if the President didn't like his work he could fire him, that's how confident he is. The owner further suggests the border wall is an emergency, but Trump is a man who can cut through red tape to get things done.

Company wins $400 million dollar contract

In unrelated news Trump has said the company was recommended to him by Kevin Cramer, Republican senator from North Dakota, which might explain why Trump was telling the heads Homeland Security and the Army Corps of Engineers that Fisher Sand & Gravel could get the job done bested cheapest, and in further unrelated news Fisher Sand & Gravel had made contribution to Kevin Cramer's campaign for reelection

For myself I'd also like to know why Fox News are allowing a business owner to go on TV and make Trump's talking points whilst actively using that slot for free advertising direct to Trump, how is that news?

On the back of going on Fox News and directly lobbying Trump and despite the US Army Corps of Engineers officials finding Fisher's border wall proposal didn't meet the project's requirements on quality Fisher was able to land a large contract taking over a billion dollars from the treasury for his own company. Parts of the wall he built are already on the verge of falling down (and into the Rio Grande where it's close to the river), also (parts of) the wall he's put up is violating a treaty with Mexico by deflecting too much water during floods and this will need to be addressed, whether by Fisher or by additional public money I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess. I don't think any part of the wall Fisher has erected would be a year old, most of it would be months old
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by eldanielfire »

DOB wrote: So Trump is the only one who can heal the divides within the country, and at the time advance America's standing in relation to foreign economic adversaries such as China.

Trump is.

Trump.

Trump.

Have you been paying any attention these past 4 years?
Trump can heal the divide in US politics. By failing to win this election. It will help to minimise the polarising insanity on his side and will hopefully reduce the Trump derangement syndrone on the other side, creating a less mental narrative from everywhere.

Interestingly the UK Labour party has finally past Corbynism and it's toxicity. The Labour party is now looking more sensible now and is actually punishing and firing the nutters from top positions as they drop their antisemitism bombs and the like. Sure there is pushback from the Hard Left, but the party is now moving back to the mainstream, also with some lessons learned about why it's lost in recent years (with and without Corbyn) and why it must appeal to the working classes it abandoned. I fear though the Republicans returning to their obsessive low tax tea party base and the Democrats staying with the big money and serving their silicon valley corporations pockets.

I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

piquant wrote:
piquant wrote:A company submits a contract with the US army bidding for a share of constructing part of the border wall, the US army corp of engineers finds the company has no record of working on construction of this type and a poor environmental record and doesn't put the company forward as one of the preferred list of candidates.

Owner of the company, Fisher Sand & Gravel, goes on Fox News however and says he could build the wall, faster, better and cheaper than anyone else, that once he's in like Tom Brady he wouldn't leave the field and he'd get the job done, and if the President didn't like his work he could fire him, that's how confident he is. The owner further suggests the border wall is an emergency, but Trump is a man who can cut through red tape to get things done.

Company wins $400 million dollar contract

In unrelated news Trump has said the company was recommended to him by Kevin Cramer, Republican senator from North Dakota, which might explain why Trump was telling the heads Homeland Security and the Army Corps of Engineers that Fisher Sand & Gravel could get the job done bested cheapest, and in further unrelated news Fisher Sand & Gravel had made contribution to Kevin Cramer's campaign for reelection

For myself I'd also like to know why Fox News are allowing a business owner to go on TV and make Trump's talking points whilst actively using that slot for free advertising direct to Trump, how is that news?

On the back of going on Fox News and directly lobbying Trump and despite the US Army Corps of Engineers officials finding Fisher's border wall proposal didn't meet the project's requirements on quality Fisher was able to land a large contract taking over a billion dollars from the treasury for his own company. Parts of the wall he built are already on the verge of falling down (and into the Rio Grande where it's close to the river), also (parts of) the wall he's put up is violating a treaty with Mexico by deflecting too much water during floods and this will need to be addressed, whether by Fisher or by additional public money I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess. I don't think any part of the wall Fisher has erected would be a year old, most of it would be months old
3 feet high and rising...
piquant
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by piquant »

BokJock wrote:
piquant wrote:
piquant wrote:A company submits a contract with the US army bidding for a share of constructing part of the border wall, the US army corp of engineers finds the company has no record of working on construction of this type and a poor environmental record and doesn't put the company forward as one of the preferred list of candidates.

Owner of the company, Fisher Sand & Gravel, goes on Fox News however and says he could build the wall, faster, better and cheaper than anyone else, that once he's in like Tom Brady he wouldn't leave the field and he'd get the job done, and if the President didn't like his work he could fire him, that's how confident he is. The owner further suggests the border wall is an emergency, but Trump is a man who can cut through red tape to get things done.

Company wins $400 million dollar contract

In unrelated news Trump has said the company was recommended to him by Kevin Cramer, Republican senator from North Dakota, which might explain why Trump was telling the heads Homeland Security and the Army Corps of Engineers that Fisher Sand & Gravel could get the job done bested cheapest, and in further unrelated news Fisher Sand & Gravel had made contribution to Kevin Cramer's campaign for reelection

For myself I'd also like to know why Fox News are allowing a business owner to go on TV and make Trump's talking points whilst actively using that slot for free advertising direct to Trump, how is that news?

On the back of going on Fox News and directly lobbying Trump and despite the US Army Corps of Engineers officials finding Fisher's border wall proposal didn't meet the project's requirements on quality Fisher was able to land a large contract taking over a billion dollars from the treasury for his own company. Parts of the wall he built are already on the verge of falling down (and into the Rio Grande where it's close to the river), also (parts of) the wall he's put up is violating a treaty with Mexico by deflecting too much water during floods and this will need to be addressed, whether by Fisher or by additional public money I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess. I don't think any part of the wall Fisher has erected would be a year old, most of it would be months old
3 feet high and rising...
Trump is a big fan of Me, Myself and I
Santa
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Santa »

eldanielfire wrote:
DOB wrote: So Trump is the only one who can heal the divides within the country, and at the time advance America's standing in relation to foreign economic adversaries such as China.

Trump is.

Trump.

Trump.

Have you been paying any attention these past 4 years?
Trump can heal the divide in US politics. By failing to win this election. It will help to minimise the polarising insanity on his side and will hopefully reduce the Trump derangement syndrone on the other side, creating a less mental narrative from everywhere.

Interestingly the UK Labour party has finally past Corbynism and it's toxicity. The Labour party is now looking more sensible now and is actually punishing and firing the nutters from top positions as they drop their antisemitism bombs and the like. Sure there is pushback from the Hard Left, but the party is now moving back to the mainstream, also with some lessons learned about why it's lost in recent years (with and without Corbyn) and why it must appeal to the working classes it abandoned. I fear though the Republicans returning to their obsessive low tax tea party base and the Democrats staying with the big money and serving their silicon valley corporations pockets.

I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
I bet you it won't.
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shanky
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by shanky »

Santa wrote:Nobody going to watch the John Gray clip? He was Emeritus Professor of European Thought at the LSE.

Thought not. :thumbup:
Are you going to...
a) answer any of the questions put to you
b) answer any of them in good faith
c) hell, simply respond at all, in something other than glib soundbites?

Nah. Thought not... :thumbup:
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by ticketlessinseattle »

Waratah wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Ah but the support for Trump is mirrored across the global west. Trump won because he gained support from traditional working class base who normally in the far past were democrats. [...]

It's mirrored by the Brexit vote in the UK, the rise in support for Le Pen in France and even in left wing movements, like Bernie Sanders or elections recently in Italy and Spain. Or sadly in moves to the far right across all of western Europe. Or in Australia a head scratching moment as to why the left wing didn't actually win the last election.

The trends that brought us Trump to power are global. It's just that the outlets for the masses to find their voice have been different.
Here's your global phenomenon. It also goes to Hermes' supposition that Facebook and other social media is making little difference. It is. Which countries are bucking the trend? The ones which have invested heavily in digital literacy, such as Finland, helping people understand how they can be manipulated online. These countries are now rated as having the highest resistance to fake news.

This is spot on. Oligarchs Are Gaming Democracy
I obviously agree that social media has played a huge part in the success of nutters such as orange shit gibbon, Boris etc but is convincing poor people to vote against their own best interests all that new ? conservatives seem to good at convincing poor people that their security is under threat, their religion is under threat for ages ; I'm only going back 20 years but I still dont get how Dubya got elected 1st time and especially 2nd time ; he/Karl Rove somehow managed to convince a lot of poor people that he was their guy despite being a rich kid that dodged the draft
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
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Post by piquant »

4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
Because it's a highly efficient model that's building more wealth than any other. Where the politics comes in is what do you then do with that wealth, or if you want a comparative wealth model offer an alternative that isn't fruit loops, or say to voters we can have different/fairer model but there will be less wealth.

Just because there's an efficient economic model doesn't mean you have to accept an ever wealthier top 1%
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Post by AND-y »

It's efficient for killing the planet and f**king over people in not north america/europe alright.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Ted. »

piquant wrote:
4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
Because it's a highly efficient model that's building more wealth than any other. Where the politics comes in is what do you then do with that wealth, or if you want a comparative wealth model offer an alternative that isn't fruit loops, or say to voters we can have different/fairer model but there will be less wealth.

Just because there's an efficient economic model doesn't mean you have to accept an ever wealthier top 1%
Wealth for whom?
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by eldanielfire »

4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.
True, but I'm clearly and obviously talking about left leaning mainstream parties who embrace it e.g. The Democrats.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by eldanielfire »

Ted. wrote:
piquant wrote:
4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
Because it's a highly efficient model that's building more wealth than any other. Where the politics comes in is what do you then do with that wealth, or if you want a comparative wealth model offer an alternative that isn't fruit loops, or say to voters we can have different/fairer model but there will be less wealth.

Just because there's an efficient economic model doesn't mean you have to accept an ever wealthier top 1%
Wealth for whom?
The super rich of course. Let's ignore the shrinking middle class and a working class with fewer and fewer working opportunities.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by TheFrog »

Santa wrote:And the Russiagate hoax. That's one of the biggest of them all. :thumbup:

But still, all that is doing is accelerating what is already happening. It is not causal.
My fear, and that relates to your comment that focusing on the man himself is not relevant, is that history indeed repeats itself in cycles- which, I guess are partly linked to the memory cycles. I will bring WW2 again here but a lot of people who brought Hitler to power thought exactly like that. The man himself is obnoxious but he is the best placed to implement the policies we need.

I am not claiming Trump is Hitler, I don't believe he is, and I don't believe he has a world view and strong beliefs as Hitler had.

But what I am saying is that by turning a blind eye on a man utter corruption, one is handing power to that corruption without knowing how far it can take the country. This is a huge risk in my opinion.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by TheFrog »

4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
The biggest problem the left is faced with is that the people who are running the left, leading at national level, do not belong to the same society as the people who struggle at the bottom of the social scale. That divide has grown bigger and bigger and induced then movements away from the center left toward isolated populist figures as Trump, far left movements or far right movements.

History repeats itself here. When the people who are hungry are losing hope they turn to more radical solutions in search of a better tomorrow.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Big Nipper »

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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by Santa »

TheFrog wrote:
Santa wrote:And the Russiagate hoax. That's one of the biggest of them all. :thumbup:

But still, all that is doing is accelerating what is already happening. It is not causal.
My fear, and that relates to your comment that focusing on the man himself is not relevant, is that history indeed repeats itself in cycles- which, I guess are partly linked to the memory cycles. I will bring WW2 again here but a lot of people who brought Hitler to power thought exactly like that. The man himself is obnoxious but he is the best placed to implement the policies we need.

I am not claiming Trump is Hitler, I don't believe he is, and I don't believe he has a world view and strong beliefs as Hitler had.

But what I am saying is that by turning a blind eye on a man utter corruption, one is handing power to that corruption without knowing how far it can take the country. This is a huge risk in my opinion.
I take the point. Trump is a bit more corruptishy than you'd probably like or at least he's more public about it. I don't doubt that some of the things he has done in public have previously been done in secret or more artfully. However, there are institutional constraints on him and you'd be hard pressed to argue that they have not been been working. You might argue they're not working enough or not working to your satisfaction, and fair enough. They are still present and effective. He has not had it all his own way. He has been pushing the boundaries, yes. Perhaps more than other presidents perhaps not. I don't know. In other words I think the risk is overstated and where it actually exists is relatively limited.

But this is all pretty well understood. The calculation is a net one. On a net basis is he better or worse than the other guy on a net basis. That is a matter of judgement rather than fact, and people can quite reasonably arrive at different judgements without being evil or morally deficient: the Noseholders.

One more thing: on a net basis means taking everything into account. People on here have been jumping up and down about one issue or another as if that Trumps everything else. That again is a judgement call, and what is most important for you might not be most important for someone else. That is the point of democracy.
Last edited by Santa on Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by piquant »

Ted. wrote:
piquant wrote:
4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.

It's a economic model that was championed by figures like Reagan and Thatcher and is supported by Republicans, centrist Democrats and Conservatives. It's a centre-right model. Why would The Left need to reflect on it?
Because it's a highly efficient model that's building more wealth than any other. Where the politics comes in is what do you then do with that wealth, or if you want a comparative wealth model offer an alternative that isn't fruit loops, or say to voters we can have different/fairer model but there will be less wealth.

Just because there's an efficient economic model doesn't mean you have to accept an ever wealthier top 1%
Wealth for whom?
That's the politics part. The system itself clearly isn't one that's distributing wealth as many would like, though that's hardly unique to this system, but that doesn't mean the system has to be what's at fault.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by 4071 »

eldanielfire wrote:
4071 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: I sincerely hope a Trump defeat has some similar effect in the USA. The right can go and pick a better option of a people person and the left can reflect and understand genuinely how the current neo-liberal economic model allows for someone like Trump to have won.
The Left probably do understand how the neoliberal economic model can create the conditions for someone like Trump. It's why the left generally rail against neoliberalism.
True, but I'm clearly and obviously talking about left leaning mainstream parties who embrace it e.g. The Democrats.
Fair enough. I wouldn't call it a question for the left, then, so much as a question for mainstream centrists. Regardless of party.

The establishment in both US parties have been unquestioningly neoliberal for some time. Granted, you can make a case that the Republican establishment have had their shock moment as the party has become the Trump Party rather than the Republican Party, dedicated to policies that advance Trump rather than policies of economic principle. And that with Sanders losing out again to a centrist, the Democrats have not had their moment of disruption yet. But I would suggest that the leftward policy swing in the Democrat party, whilst less obvious and impactful than the disruption to the Republican Party, suggests they are also moving away from the unthinking neoliberal consensus.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by piquant »

Did Sanders lose out, or despite suffering a heart attack and not being popular with non white voters still manage to get Biden to agree to a big chunk of Bernie's agenda?
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

Santa wrote:
TheFrog wrote:
Santa wrote:And the Russiagate hoax. That's one of the biggest of them all. :thumbup:

But still, all that is doing is accelerating what is already happening. It is not causal.
My fear, and that relates to your comment that focusing on the man himself is not relevant, is that history indeed repeats itself in cycles- which, I guess are partly linked to the memory cycles. I will bring WW2 again here but a lot of people who brought Hitler to power thought exactly like that. The man himself is obnoxious but he is the best placed to implement the policies we need.

I am not claiming Trump is Hitler, I don't believe he is, and I don't believe he has a world view and strong beliefs as Hitler had.

But what I am saying is that by turning a blind eye on a man utter corruption, one is handing power to that corruption without knowing how far it can take the country. This is a huge risk in my opinion.
I take the point. Trump is a bit more corruptishy than you'd probably like or at least he's more public about it. I don't doubt that some of the things he has done in public have previously been done in secret or more artfully. However, there are institutional constraints on him and you'd be hard pressed to argue that they have not been been working. You might argue they're not working enough or not working to your satisfaction, and fair enough. They are still present and effective. He has not had it all his own way. He has been pushing the boundaries, yes. Perhaps more than other presidents perhaps not. I don't know. In other words I think the risk is overstated and where it actually exists is relatively limited.

But this is all pretty well understood. The calculation is a net one. On a net basis is he better or worse than the other guy on a net basis. That is a matter of judgement rather than fact, and people can quite reasonably arrive at different judgements without being evil or morally deficient: the Noseholders.

One more thing: on a net basis means taking everything into account. People on here have been jumping up and down about one issue or another as if that Trumps everything else. That again is a judgement call, and what is most important for you might not be most important for someone else. That is the point of democracy.
Yes it is a judgement - but as you say it is made by weighing up all his cons and pros. you have to look past a huge amount of cons to get a net pro column and therefore I think it is a fair assessment of one's moral compass.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by 4071 »

piquant wrote:Did Sanders lose out, or despite suffering a heart attack and not being popular with non white voters still manage to get Biden to agree to a big chunk of Bernie's agenda?
He lost out personally in the sense of not winning the nomination, but you are right that his policy agenda has become more mainstream in the party. And that's exactly the leftward movement I was talking about. It's possible to look at Biden winning the nomination as another rejection of leftist policies by the centrist Democrat establishment, but Sanders' popularity and the popularity of many of his policies have seen the centrists wake up and try and adapt their platform to address the issues he has been raising.
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by shanky »

LOL

@santa

I’ll take that as a ‘No’ then, you being a pseudo-intellectual fraud

:lol: :lol:
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

4071 wrote:
piquant wrote:Did Sanders lose out, or despite suffering a heart attack and not being popular with non white voters still manage to get Biden to agree to a big chunk of Bernie's agenda?
He lost out personally in the sense of not winning the nomination, but you are right that his policy agenda has become more mainstream in the party. And that's exactly the leftward movement I was talking about. It's possible to look at Biden winning the nomination as another rejection of leftist policies by the centrist Democrat establishment, but Sanders' popularity and the popularity of many of his policies have seen the centrists wake up and try and adapt their platform to address the issues he has been raising.
Damn neo-Moaist faction taking over the Dems, the end is nigh
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Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Post by BokJock »

Big Nipper wrote:Image
Quoted this earlier- it is f**king extraordinary.

The doctor told him he was amazing :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by BokJock on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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