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They wouldn't have done it if he had accepted the results of the election.flaggETERNAL wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:04 pm I think it will be difficult to prove he caused his supporters to do what they did.
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:32 pm
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:32 pm
To prove that he directly incited them to do it will be extremely difficult indeed.flaggETERNAL wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:04 pm I think it will be difficult to prove he caused his supporters to do what they did.
This is a proper crowd wind up really, all based on asking them to do a show of force. He has not called to invade the Capitol, he has not called direclty to harm elected officials, but his words falling into the hears of wounded up supporters have most certainly triggered what happened later. However, can this be proven beyond doubt? Especially with the saving grace:TheFrog wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:33 pm Also, to come back to Trump's speech on the 6th, and the words he used, I would say this is a tricky issue.
If you analyse the words used, it is difficult to claim that Trump incited violence as he specifically called protesters to demonstrate peacefully.
At the same time, his speech is designed to turn on the heat and embolden his supporters:
All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.[...]
We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.
We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen. [...]
I’d love to have, if those tens of thousands of people would be allowed, the military, the secret service, and we want to thank you, and the police law enforcement. Great. You’re doing a great job, but I’d love it if they could be allowed to come up here with us.
[...] We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our constitution, and protect our constitution. States want to revote. The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. [...]
We’re just not going to let that happen. Many of you have traveled from all across the nation to be here, and I want to thank you for the extraordinary love. [...]
We’re gathered together in the heart of our nation’s Capitol for one very, very basic and simple reason, to save our democracy. [...]
We want to go back, and we want to get this right because we’re going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed, and we’re not going to stand for that. [...]
Unbelievable, what we have to go through, what we have to go through and you have to get your people to fight. If they don’t fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don’t fight. You primary them. We’re going to let you know who they are. I can already tell you, frankly. [...]
After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. [...]
We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated.
Was he manipulating the crowd, and protecting himself with the right words so as to be in a position to claim that he did not instigate the riots?I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.
CrazyIslander wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:13 pmThis is a proper crowd wind up really, all based on asking them to do a show of force. He has not called to invade the Capitol, he has not called direclty to harm elected officials, but his words falling into the hears of wounded up supporters have most certainly triggered what happened later. However, can this be proven beyond doubt? Especially with the saving grace:TheFrog wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:33 pm Also, to come back to Trump's speech on the 6th, and the words he used, I would say this is a tricky issue.
If you analyse the words used, it is difficult to claim that Trump incited violence as he specifically called protesters to demonstrate peacefully.
At the same time, his speech is designed to turn on the heat and embolden his supporters:
All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats, which is what they’re doing and stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.[...]
We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.
We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen. [...]
I’d love to have, if those tens of thousands of people would be allowed, the military, the secret service, and we want to thank you, and the police law enforcement. Great. You’re doing a great job, but I’d love it if they could be allowed to come up here with us.
[...] We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our constitution, and protect our constitution. States want to revote. The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. [...]
We’re just not going to let that happen. Many of you have traveled from all across the nation to be here, and I want to thank you for the extraordinary love. [...]
We’re gathered together in the heart of our nation’s Capitol for one very, very basic and simple reason, to save our democracy. [...]
We want to go back, and we want to get this right because we’re going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed, and we’re not going to stand for that. [...]
Unbelievable, what we have to go through, what we have to go through and you have to get your people to fight. If they don’t fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don’t fight. You primary them. We’re going to let you know who they are. I can already tell you, frankly. [...]
After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong. [...]
We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated.
Was he manipulating the crowd, and protecting himself with the right words so as to be in a position to claim that he did not instigate the riots?I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.
Or was he sincere and didn't foresee the possible consequences of his words?
I really think it is difficult to prove his intent here, but what is sure is that his words most likely were like oil poured over a burning fire of anger. And this was in the continuation of the lies served to his supporters since before the elections (let us remember that he started talking about fraud before the elections, knowing well the scenario that would most likely unfold, with votes counts switching overnight from him to Biden). And for this, for his continuous lying to people, his continuous divisive actions, he deserves to be forever prevented from exercising any public office again.
But let justice be done properly.
If he didn’t actually say the words ‘violently attack the Capitol’, then they were the only words left to say...You'd also need to take into account his actions during and after the riot.
During riot,
He was calling representatives and urged them to try and delay the certification. His administration refused to give permission for neighbouring states to send help. Plus, he himself refused to send help for hours.
Afterwards, he praised the rioters.
It's very compelling evidence.
Just in: Joint Chiefs of Staff preparing rare message to entire force of reassurance: reminding them the job is to support & defend Constitution and reject extremism. Its a significant step. JCS have sought to stay out of politics. Statement due to gravity of events.
Holy shit.EverReady wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:10 pmLook at these two pricks.America is a messTheFrog wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:20 pm A lot of valid points raised here.
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/12/95581889 ... ump-police
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... tol-siege/
https://www.wbez.org/stories/chicago-po ... f15f4ac740
No, they didn’t burn it down, but they beat up one of your brothers with a US flag, so there’s that.“It’s an inconvenience at this point, is all it is,” he said. “This is not some mass insurrection, coup attempt. They’re not destroying or burning down the fricking Capitol building. This hyperbole and this emotion that the media is spewing now, like this is some kind of end-of-times scenario, is ridiculous.”
Does this mean the pile on is off, or is it just changing format? I don't want to arrive with the wrong leather outfit...towny wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:23 pmI think you got scared and blinked.fatcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:11 pmThank you. I feel we're approaching bro-hug territory.towny wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:07 pmGood post.fatcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:46 pmI think it's a key point. For the sake of clarity - I'm not suggesting that authorities treat the actions of the mob leniently. I hope every single person who entered the building is identified and and every single person who broke any law is punished to the fullest extent.koroke hangareka wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:25 pm
Whether or not they had any chance of succeeding isn't really the point, is it?
But I’m a hug slut, so bring it in.
message #2527204 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:32 pm
I liked:ovalball wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:18 pmLove this quote further down the threadFloppykid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:57 pm https://twitter.com/NYScanner/status/13 ... 1477394435
Good luck getting Daddy's help.
The only person trump ever hired who was qualified for the job was Stormy Daniels.
All aboard the Trump Train - cause you're on the no-Fly list
mightyreds wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:42 pm I've been searching through all the comments I've seen about this election (which since 3 November has been one long episode of Treason Without Punishment) for one that best sums it up, and for me it's this:
‘Corruption is at a crisis point in this country, because the people we depend on to expose it are involved.’
Still, I've been getting a weird feeling this week that something amazing and unpredicted is going to happen. I may be wrong - my hopes have been dashed many times so far - but I hope to blazes that this time I'm not.
mightyreds wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:42 pm I've been searching through all the comments I've seen about this election (which since 3 November has been one long episode of Treason Without Punishment) for one that best sums it up, and for me it's this:
‘Corruption is at a crisis point in this country, because the people we depend on to expose it are involved.’
Still, I've been getting a weird feeling this week that something amazing and unpredicted is going to happen. I may be wrong - my hopes have been dashed many times so far - but I hope to blazes that this time I'm not.
Presidents?Monk Zombie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:55 pmmightyreds wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:42 pm I've been searching through all the comments I've seen about this election (which since 3 November has been one long episode of Treason Without Punishment) for one that best sums it up, and for me it's this:
‘Corruption is at a crisis point in this country, because the people we depend on to expose it are involved.’
Still, I've been getting a weird feeling this week that something amazing and unpredicted is going to happen. I may be wrong - my hopes have been dashed many times so far - but I hope to blazes that this time I'm not.
Aliens?
But, but...PortlandFloppykid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:13 pm Statement from Joint Chiefs.
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1349115529219473410
