Planet Rugby Forum

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:So, is America great again yet? Because from the outside looking in it seems to be a land of division moving from one shambolic mess to another. Rather like an advert for a low budget TV satire called "The Blame Game."

It's a country now only in the loosest sense with the core American nation assailed by legions of active fifth columnists.

Guys like Jorge ramos are only the comical visible tip of the iceberg.

the really should divide the country along the old slave states vs non slave states - the elites on each coast can look on in amusement .....and with more of their taxes paid staying where its paid.....making California, New York etc great again.

The Resistance is getting pretty nasty now: dead animals left as warnings, doxing, hounding, threats, Waters. Abandoning the disciplines of democracy. Unbelievably, Trump is gaining the moral high ground.

ticketlessinseattle wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

Fat Old Git wrote:So, is America great again yet? Because from the outside looking in it seems to be a land of division moving from one shambolic mess to another. Rather like an advert for a low budget TV satire called "The Blame Game."

It's a country now only in the loosest sense with the core American nation assailed by legions of active fifth columnists.

Guys like Jorge ramos are only the comical visible tip of the iceberg.

the really should divide the country along the old slave states vs non slave states - the elites on each coast can look on in amusement .....and with more of their taxes paid staying where its paid.....making California, New York etc great again.

Yeah cool. Woo.

Santa wrote:The Resistance is getting pretty nasty now: dead animals left as warnings, doxing, hounding, threats, Waters. Abandoning the disciplines of democracy. Unbelievably, Trump is gaining the moral high ground.

Yeah, nah.

Those opposed to Trump need to stay out of the sewer. He's got far more experience down there - they need to stay on the moral high ground and watch him flounder around.

The whining of his fanbase around the refusal to serve Sanders is something to behold, though. They're right behind private companies choosing to trade with whoever they want until that affects one of Trump's minions. Then they turn into a load of hysterical fannies.

Saturnine wrote:

Santa wrote:The Resistance is getting pretty nasty now: dead animals left as warnings, doxing, hounding, threats, Waters. Abandoning the disciplines of democracy. Unbelievably, Trump is gaining the moral high ground.

Yeah, nah.

Those opposed to Trump need to stay out of the sewer. He's got far more experience down there - they need to stay on the moral high ground and watch him flounder around.

The whining of his fanbase around the refusal to serve Sanders is something to behold, though. They're right behind private companies choosing to trade with whoever they want until that affects one of Trump's minions. Then they turn into a load of hysterical fannies.

The moral background isn't an objective position. It's a matter of public perception. This stuff is not playing well outside the echo chamber.

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

zt1903 wrote:

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

Stephen Miller looks like the sort of man who has a solution to this tricky problem.

Good article about how Trump's policies have screwed Harley, and they are most certainly not the only company in the same boat.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/harley-d ... 37471.html

penguin wrote:

zt1903 wrote:

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

Stephen Miller looks like the sort of man who has a solution to this tricky problem.

Putting Miller in front of the public to talk about this stuff was certainly a bad decision.

zt1903 wrote:

penguin wrote:

zt1903 wrote:

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

Stephen Miller looks like the sort of man who has a solution to this tricky problem.

Putting Miller in front of the public to talk about this stuff was certainly a bad decision.

I think finding Miller unsettling might be the topic that can bring America together.

ticketlessinseattle wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:Christ almighty, the anti-trump loons are flailing about egg all over their faces this morning. Fine. Being exposed as suckers for propaganda is a bit humiliating. And we're used to being called evil. But the facts remain: this is a complicated issue and the Democrats have no coherent or legitimate policy on immigration that they can point to and defend or offer as an alternative.

you've got the presidency, control of house and senate - what do you need Democrats for ? if its humiliating for democrats being exposed as suckers for propaganda is it not the same propaganda that shitgibbon signed a piece of paper for ? and thats not including the humilation of doing something he said he could not do days previously (do something to end the standoff)...i know its hard to keep track of the clusterfcuks this administration create but christ, do try to keep up.

To get the requisite number of votes to pass a bill

It needs 60 votes in senate to get a bill on the floor even though it then only needs 51 to pass.

zt1903 wrote:

Jay Cee Gee wrote:

zt1903 wrote:

Jay Cee Gee wrote:

Oh, nothing major...just due process and separation of powers. No biggie.

Remind me what constitutional rights non-citizens have in this situation?

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

.

Note - 'person', not citizen.

The constitution applies to those persons on American soil, deportable aliens (the correct legal term) caught at the border are not regarded as on American soil and therefore the constitutional protections don’t apply.

Not saying that the sentiment expressed is right btw, just that it’s not a constitutional issue.

I wouldn't be to sure about your analysis. The constitution is originally an 18th century document. I suspect concepts such as deportable aliens, and borders being a point at which a person changes status as being 19th/20th century concepts. Not knowing enough about the amendments, (or past legal clarification), then I would imagine it is a case that the Supreme Court would have to rule on.

If only there was an amazing deal maker available who could get them all on board. Someone who had made deal making an art form.

zt1903 wrote:

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

I disagree.

Both achieve the exact same outcome. Deportation, with those desperate to get in trying over and over again until they succeed.

The "zero tolerance" is just much more costly. The processing, detention, separation, holding and trial fees all add up, and when going to trial, first time offenders get charged with illegal entry to the United States, which carries a min $50 and max $250 fine and subsequent deportation. I'm not sure how those fines are recovered (if they ever are) but I'm pretty sure the cost of all of the above exceeds $250.

So why not keep the catch and release policy, avoid all the noise, bad press etc of separating families, and pump all those savings into making the "catch" part more and more efficient? Congress already approved a shit-ton of money for additional border security.

Flockwitt wrote:Good article about how Trump's policies have screwed Harley, and they are most certainly not the only company in the same boat.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/harley-d ... 37471.html

Harley screwed Harley. Their name will be tarnished, I bet he continues to go after them to make an "example." Could seriously damage their brand.

Bowens wrote:

Flockwitt wrote:Good article about how Trump's policies have screwed Harley, and they are most certainly not the only company in the same boat.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/harley-d ... 37471.html

Harley screwed Harley. Their name will be tarnished, I bet he continues to go after them to make an "example." Could seriously damage their brand.

I just looked at his Twitter - two or three tweets on them already today. They are fcuked. Watch.

I see European car manufacturers are next.

Bowens wrote:

Bowens wrote:

Flockwitt wrote:Good article about how Trump's policies have screwed Harley, and they are most certainly not the only company in the same boat.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/harley-d ... 37471.html

Harley screwed Harley. Their name will be tarnished, I bet he continues to go after them to make an "example." Could seriously damage their brand.

I just looked at his Twitter - two or three tweets on them already today. They are fcuked. Watch.

It's ok for him though to invest his money outside the States.
Just a small bit of a lack of awareness.

Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

What a good idea ... coming from the left, of course.

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

Have Harley done anything ?

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

Blake wrote:

zt1903 wrote:

Blake wrote:What I find staggering is that the Trump Administration is going through all this effort and cost and bad press, to enforce their zero tolerance policy and prosecute the immigrants with a charge that carries a minimum penalty of $50 and a maximum penalty of $250...which they are unlikely to be able to recoup once the individual has been deported.

So much for fiscal conservatives. The current zero tolerance policy gets the exact same outcome (deportation) at a much higher cost (financially, socially, reputationally).

If you are being generous, I suppose you could say it is the principle of the rule of law, but that would only fly if the Trump Administration was ethical, and let's be honest there...they haven't really made that a priority.

The point is that the alternative to zero tolerance is “catch and release” which has its own set of issues.

I disagree.

Both achieve the exact same outcome. Deportation, with those desperate to get in trying over and over again until they succeed.

The "zero tolerance" is just much more costly. The processing, detention, separation, holding and trial fees all add up, and when going to trial, first time offenders get charged with illegal entry to the United States, which carries a min $50 and max $250 fine and subsequent deportation. I'm not sure how those fines are recovered (if they ever are) but I'm pretty sure the cost of all of the above exceeds $250.

So why not keep the catch and release policy, avoid all the noise, bad press etc of separating families, and pump all those savings into making the "catch" part more and more efficient? Congress already approved a shit-ton of money for additional border security.

Catch and release doesn’t achieve deportation because a ridiculously high percentage do not appear at their hearings.

Seneca of the Night wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

He is smarter than you.

FACT.

Struggling to see how that is relevant to the comment you were addressing. Now slay me with your cutting wit and deep intellect. I know you want to.

Kiwias wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

He is smarter than you.

FACT.

Struggling to see how that is relevant to the comment you were addressing. Now slay me with your cutting with and deep intellect. I know you want to.

Has he insulted you too?

fishooks15 wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

I would rather know what the actual negatives are. And positives. Its possible that the Red Hen could get a little boost from the Resistance.

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

I would rather know what the actual negatives are. Ans poatives. Its possible that the Red Hen could get a little boost from the Resistance.

I doubt the leftists have much loyalty. But they will attend to receive freebies.

Wilson's Toffee wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:

Santa wrote:

fishooks15 wrote:Trump using the weight of his power to come down on the red hen is a summation of how f**ked America is. No one even batting an eyelid at the most powerful man in the country targeting and lambasting a small business

Wouldn't be surprised if one of his lunatic followers attacks the premises

I know he's been really mean to them on Twitter. Has he done anything else?

I know you're fairly dim. But I'd imagine even you can see the potential negatives of the president of the country slamming a small restaurant on twitter.

I would rather know what the actual negatives are. Ans poatives. Its possible that the Red Hen could get a little boost from the Resistance.

I doubt the leftists have much loyalty. But they will attend to receive freebies.

Perhaps SHS could launch legal action and drive the place out of business. We've seen it before.

A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

Bowens wrote:A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

No doubt. It's the lunatics that could rock up to enact revenge that is the problem

Bowens wrote:A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

Well there you go. Mushroom risotto is disgusting.

It's a funny old world where we have people getting all het up about the dangers of Trump's Twittering whilst ignoring decapitated animals being left on doorsteps and mass doxing.

Santa wrote:

Bowens wrote:A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

Well there you go. Mushroom risotto is disgusting.

That's your worst post ever.

Seriously though, I thought that a court had established that trump's tweets equated to government policy. If this is the case, it's at best an abuse of power.

happyhooker wrote:

Santa wrote:

Bowens wrote:A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

Well there you go. Mushroom risotto is disgusting.

That's your worst post ever.

Seriously though, I thought that a court had established that trump's tweets equated to government policy. If this is the case, it's at best an abuse of power.

That hasn't happened. Anyway I support her right to kick SHS out.

Santa wrote:

happyhooker wrote:

Santa wrote:

Bowens wrote:A restaurant that charges $30 for mushroom risotto and is a weekend getaway for DC beltway types will probably benefit from a spat with Trump.

Well there you go. Mushroom risotto is disgusting.

That's your worst post ever.

Seriously though, I thought that a court had established that trump's tweets equated to government policy. If this is the case, it's at best an abuse of power.

That hasn't happened. Anyway I support her right to kick SHS out.

My memory was slightly faulty. The DoJ treat them as official statements from the president.

Whether you support their right to eject her or not, that the president uses his tweets for this end is worrying. And yes, I know he's always been a twat on twitter

Santa wrote:It's a funny old world where we have people getting all het up about the dangers of Trump's Twittering whilst ignoring decapitated animals being left on doorsteps and mass doxing.

Clearly that is ugly stuff, and I believe the vast majority of people would say that is grotesque and would condemn it. We don't have to support everything people do just because they are on our side of the general political debate.

On the restaurant criticism and your suggestion of 'what harm does it do' I suppose it's possible it goes nowhere in of itself, but it's also creating further polarisation - it may be a stupid and flippant example among all the more serious ones, but it's a death by a thousand cuts thing for me. Everything becomes a matter of which side you are on. No middle ground, it's all left or right, blue or red, until the only thing we can all agree upon is Stephen Miller being creepy.

Every time he calls for someone to be punched in the mouth, lies about something provably false, asks for police officers to rough up suspects, lies, calls immigrants animals and uses terms like parasites and infestations, lies about reading a letter, undermines an ongoing investigation and insults the intelligence services, lies about his crowds, gets into a twitter spat with people, lies about whether he paid off a porn star, says that some people marching with neo-nazis are very fine people, lies about how much legislation they are getting through, suggests that people opposing him should be locked up, lies to the leader of an allied country about factual things like trade deficits and then tells people about it, ignores Russian meddling and tries to hand wave away any suggestion that they are an enemy not a friend, calls the national media fake news...each little or big thing that he says puts a wedge between people and hammers it again and again to break that crack open a little more.

No one should support all this - it's like the Nigerian scam letters with purposeful spelling mistakes - only the best people to be scammed can't see the spelling mistakes as warning signs. In terms of being on the right side of history if you find yourself standing with Stephen Miller then you might want to ask where this leads and at what point that shrugging and excusing of all the little, and not so little, things stops?

penguin wrote:

Santa wrote:It's a funny old world where we have people getting all het up about the dangers of Trump's Twittering whilst ignoring decapitated animals being left on doorsteps and mass doxing.

Clearly that is ugly stuff, and I believe the vast majority of people would say that is grotesque and would condemn it. We don't have to support everything people do just because they are on our side of the general political debate.

On the restaurant criticism and your suggestion of 'what harm does it do' I suppose it's possible it goes nowhere in of itself, but it's also creating further polarisation - it may be a stupid and flippant example among all the more serious ones, but it's a death by a thousand cuts thing for me. Everything becomes a matter of which side you are on. No middle ground, it's all left or right, blue or red, until the only thing we can all agree upon is Stephen Miller being creepy.

Every time he calls for someone to be punched in the mouth, lies about something provably false, asks for police officers to rough up suspects, lies, calls immigrants animals and uses terms like parasites and infestations, lies about reading a letter, undermines an ongoing investigation and insults the intelligence services, lies about his crowds, gets into a twitter spat with people, lies about whether he paid off a porn star, says that some people marching with neo-nazis are very fine people, lies about how much legislation they are getting through, suggests that people opposing him should be locked up, lies to the leader of an allied country about factual things like trade deficits and then tells people about it, ignores Russian meddling and tries to hand wave away any suggestion that they are an enemy not a friend, calls the national media fake news...each little or big thing that he says puts a wedge between people and hammers it again and again to break that crack open a little more.

No one should support all this - it's like the Nigerian scam letters with purposeful spelling mistakes - only the best people to be scammed can't see the spelling mistakes as warning signs. In terms of being on the right side of history if you find yourself standing with Stephen Miller then you might want to ask where this leads and at what point that shrugging and excusing of all the little, and not so little, things stops?

It is totally death by 1000 cuts, from both sides, and it seems to have its own momentum now. There is very little good faith to be seen.

I don't even know who Stephen Miller is. And for that reason I don't care about him (her?).

Seneca of the Night wrote:

houtkabouter wrote:

Seneca of the Night wrote:And they're off . . .

Okay Sen, let's try something else.

You clearly have a deep understanding of what Trump is doing with this, so explain it to us. Tell us how his trade war is going to benefit America.

I don't type essays to demand sorry. And I don't link to my sources. So tough luck.

Edit: just this time I'll link one. On my phone and out of action from now so this is quick:

https://www.weeklystandard.com/irwin-m- ... ssion=true

Please don't trash the source or the writer. That is stupid. One sentence stands out as appropriate vis a vis the HD case and that's where seltzer says trump will have to ignore the whining of some firms.

None of this is easy. If this was a no brainer with no downside even old hamlet himself Obama would have done it. But he used to vascillate and ruminate for days on this stuff then do nothing.

He's going to take every word and action as a personal slight. JFC, do you pay no attention at all?

Live look at Senaca

Santa wrote: It is totally death by 1000 cuts, from both sides, and it seems to have its own momentum now. There is very little good faith to be seen.

I don't even know who Stephen Miller is. And for that reason I don't care about him (her?).

The two sides are not equally weighted as far as blame goes. If it were a boxing match we'd be putting up Willie Pep against Butterbean.