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POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all
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Author:  penguin [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

penguin wrote:
Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.


I'm not sure that you want to discuss so much as have everyone agree with you.

Anyway, speaking of gaslighting have you seen this?

https://twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1 ... 13121?s=20

Author:  Rinkals [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Seneca of the Night wrote:
BokJock wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Bribery is impeachable and Trump is bang to rights.


Just stop it will you. If he was bang to rights the senate would be preparing for him to be taking the high jump right now.

This Senate wouldn't convict Trump if he shot someone in broad daylight on 5th Avenue, a notion floated by Trump himself.


The Closeted Senator from South Carolina has said he won't even listen to witness testimony - f**king ridiculous.

But I do see that he is going after Biden - those photos Trump has of Lindsey and his pool boy must be pretty graphic


You do not seem to be able to make any comment about Graham without reference to his sexuality.

Wat gives Boomer?


I think you're confused.

I'm the Boomer, I think BokJock is under forty which generally excludes him from being from that generation.

With regard to the Bidens, anything I've ever seen indicates that the most they can be accused of is nepotism, but it's a bit rich of Trump to hold that against anyone.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Seneca of the Night wrote:
In 2100 when the emotion has subsided and no one is alive with first hand memory of Trump, these are the things that will leap out to the historians and they will say 'hang on, the Dems were doing WHAT?'

Yes, because what's really important in all this is what historians will think nearly a century from now...

I'll tell you what historians will say long before then. 20 years from now there will be libraries of books delivering detailed expositions of the Trump administration as the gold-standard in American political corruption. Essay upon essay, an entire body of academic work under the subcategory of 'How The F*ck Did We Let That Happen?'

Author:  piquant [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

zzzz wrote:
This whole spectacle is ridiculous.

I despair of the Dems sometimes. Did they learn nothing from Harry Reid's f*ck up?

This was POTUS for pol BAU - albeit executed pretty clumsily (because Trump is a moron). When, as they certainly will, the Dems hold the WH but not the House, they are going to get this precedent rammed back at them with an incremental topping of partisanship.

And does anyone seriously think Hunter Biden wasn't upto his nuts in shit?



if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

piquant wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This whole spectacle is ridiculous.

I despair of the Dems sometimes. Did they learn nothing from Harry Reid's f*ck up?

This was POTUS for pol BAU - albeit executed pretty clumsily (because Trump is a moron). When, as they certainly will, the Dems hold the WH but not the House, they are going to get this precedent rammed back at them with an incremental topping of partisanship.

And does anyone seriously think Hunter Biden wasn't upto his nuts in shit?



if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Author:  zzzz [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
It wasn't 'manifestly corrupt'. There's no evidence it was corrupt at all. And what you got back wasn't any sort of variation of 'we don't like him', it was pointing out that Trump isn't interested in corruption, only the suggestion of corruption of a political rival. He didn't care about an investigation, only the announcement of an investigation.


Gimme a break! A junior exec in a credit card business who's father happens to be the Deputy Pres, suddenly turns up on the main Board of a notoriously corrupt Ukranian oil and gas co via an off the books investment fund co-owned by the son of the Sec of State?

And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

This is the mistake you f*kers keep making: you know in your hearts he's so bad that everything that opposes him must be good.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Because it's illegal. And impeachable.

Author:  Rinkals [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

penguin wrote:
Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.


Actually, it's not a futile post, because I'm sure that there are many of us who don't think that Santa is quite as clever as he likes to think he is, and it's good to know one is not alone in this.

And, yes, I've said often enough that I regard this thread as a useful resource, but that usefulness is undermined by Santa spattering crap all over it, like a small boy smearing shit on the walls.

Author:  zzzz [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

piquant wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This whole spectacle is ridiculous.

I despair of the Dems sometimes. Did they learn nothing from Harry Reid's f*ck up?

This was POTUS for pol BAU - albeit executed pretty clumsily (because Trump is a moron). When, as they certainly will, the Dems hold the WH but not the House, they are going to get this precedent rammed back at them with an incremental topping of partisanship.

And does anyone seriously think Hunter Biden wasn't upto his nuts in shit?



if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


I have some very sad news for you: presidents do and always have done this. They just aren't stupid enough to do it directly.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Because it's illegal. And impeachable.


The Constitution says nothing about witness intimidation. :?

Author:  BokJock [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Because it's illegal. And impeachable.


The Constitution says nothing about witness intimidation. :?


witness intimidation would rise to at least misdemeanor, no?

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.

Author:  6.Jones [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
In 2100 when the emotion has subsided and no one is alive with first hand memory of Trump, these are the things that will leap out to the historians and they will say 'hang on, the Dems were doing WHAT?'

Yes, because what's really important in all this is what historians will think nearly a century from now...

I'll tell you what historians will say long before then. 20 years from now there will be libraries of books delivering detailed expositions of the Trump administration as the gold-standard in American political corruption. Essay upon essay, an entire body of academic work under the subcategory of 'How The F*ck Did We Let That Happen?'

One thing that strikes me on reading this thread is that both sides believe what they say. I agree with what you just said, while Santa says there's nothing to see here, and this is perfectly okay, and both sides believe what they say. It's not the usual partisan bifocals. When it comes to Trump, there must be something in the water supply. I wonder it I'd back Trump if he was a Democrat. I hope not. I honestly believe the man is ripping the America political system to shreds, and that blaming his many attackers for that is the worst kind of political expediency.

Author:  penguin [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
penguin wrote:
Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.


I'm not sure that you want to discuss so much as have everyone agree with you.

Anyway, speaking of gaslighting have you seen this?

https://twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1 ... 13121?s=20


Good one. You really showed me.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Because it's illegal. And impeachable.


The Constitution says nothing about witness intimidation. :?


witness intimidation would rise to at least misdemeanor, no?


Well you see I am being silly. But then again I don't Trump has engaged in witness intimidation.

Author:  kiwinoz [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

IG report out in a couple of weeks. Get your popcorn.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

penguin wrote:
Santa wrote:
penguin wrote:
Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.


I'm not sure that you want to discuss so much as have everyone agree with you.

Anyway, speaking of gaslighting have you seen this?

https://twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1 ... 13121?s=20


Good one. You really showed me.


I'm not scoring points. I laying out context.

And scoring points.

Author:  penguin [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Rinkals wrote:
penguin wrote:
Actually - I take that back. You're not deluded, you know this is nonsense. What you are is spending a monumental amount of time saying the same bullsh*t over and over, and it's tedious. You must be amusing yourselves but it kills any genuine conversation about what is a pretty interesting topic if you stop trying to gaslight everyone.

A futile post, that will no doubt receive a furious bout of indignation and further nonsense, but f*ck me...what a waste of time.


Actually, it's not a futile post, because I'm sure that there are many of us who don't think that Santa is quite as clever as he likes to think he is, and it's good to know one is not alone in this.

And, yes, I've said often enough that I regard this thread as a useful resource, but that usefulness is undermined by Santa spattering crap all over it, like a small boy smearing shit on the walls.


:thumbup:

Author:  piquant [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This whole spectacle is ridiculous.

I despair of the Dems sometimes. Did they learn nothing from Harry Reid's f*ck up?

This was POTUS for pol BAU - albeit executed pretty clumsily (because Trump is a moron). When, as they certainly will, the Dems hold the WH but not the House, they are going to get this precedent rammed back at them with an incremental topping of partisanship.

And does anyone seriously think Hunter Biden wasn't upto his nuts in shit?



if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.



Why not? :?



Because the leader of a country should, imo, seek to uphold standards of behaviour for the office they hold that go beyond their own wants, and key amongst that is respect for the judicial process, whereas Trump is happy to attack witnesses, opposing lawyers, his own lawyers if they don't/can't do what he wants and judges, his behaviour is abhorrent. Trump's behaviour does sit sadly within the wider pattern of behaviour with attacks on the media, attacks on serving military officers, appointment of unqualified judges...

It doesn't even make sense politically if the aim is for the Republicans to enjoy electoral success when many people who'd like to vote Republican are left staring in disgust at what's become of the party, and I say that in the sense it doesn't make sense for Trump because he can't just rely on the rural vote (and actually based on the last couple of elections he's even losing support in the rural communities not just the suburbs, and it doesn't make sense for the Republican Party who are taking holes beneath the water for a man that isn't even a Republican. The only way I can see Trump winning now is to run a campaign which is so vile and takes the Dems down a similar path it drives down voter turnout such they're left thinking a plague on both your houses and his base gets him across the line, but that could easily backfire and deliver an absolute thrashing (and not the sort he enjoys)

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.
2. But it undermines a talking point about Trump seeking to have corruption investigated.
3. Except I think Trump actually thinks the Bidens are corrupt (leaving aside any hypocrisy on that point), and probably actually wanted it to be investigated at some point in some way.
4. So he possibly asked for an actual investigation but if that happens then it undermines the credibility of Sondland's testimony.

I doubt anyone can say one thing about that whole thing that covers all of that stuff off. And it's partly because with Trump we are dealing with chaos incarnate. A guy who just says stuff, without too much reflection, but driven by some preternatural instinct for power and weakness and the main point.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

piquant wrote:
Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
zzzz wrote:
This whole spectacle is ridiculous.

I despair of the Dems sometimes. Did they learn nothing from Harry Reid's f*ck up?

This was POTUS for pol BAU - albeit executed pretty clumsily (because Trump is a moron). When, as they certainly will, the Dems hold the WH but not the House, they are going to get this precedent rammed back at them with an incremental topping of partisanship.

And does anyone seriously think Hunter Biden wasn't upto his nuts in shit?



if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.



Why not? :?



Because the leader of a country should, imo, seek to uphold standards of behaviour for the office they hold that go beyond their own wants, and key amongst that is respect for the judicial process, whereas Trump is happy to attack witnesses, opposing lawyers, his own lawyers if they don't/can't do what he wants and judges, his behaviour is abhorrent. Trump's behaviour does sit sadly within the wider pattern of behaviour with attacks on the media, attacks on serving military officers, appointment of unqualified judges...

It doesn't even make sense politically if the aim is for the Republicans to enjoy electoral success when many people who'd like to vote Republican are left staring in disgust at what's become of the party, and I say that in the sense it doesn't make sense for Trump because he can't just rely on the rural vote (and actually based on the last couple of elections he's even losing support in the rural communities not just the suburbs, and it doesn't make sense for the Republican Party who are taking holes beneath the water for a man that isn't even a Republican. The only way I can see Trump winning now is to run a campaign which is so vile and takes the Dems down a similar path it drives down voter turnout such they're left thinking a plague on both your houses and his base gets him across the line, but that could easily backfire and deliver an absolute thrashing (and not the sort he enjoys)


OK, Sparky. Which Pres has lived up to that standard?

Edit: Ok I just read the second paragraph properly. Worth preserving in the cache with Tah's pronouncements.

Author:  zzzz [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

6.Jones wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Seneca of the Night wrote:
In 2100 when the emotion has subsided and no one is alive with first hand memory of Trump, these are the things that will leap out to the historians and they will say 'hang on, the Dems were doing WHAT?'

Yes, because what's really important in all this is what historians will think nearly a century from now...

I'll tell you what historians will say long before then. 20 years from now there will be libraries of books delivering detailed expositions of the Trump administration as the gold-standard in American political corruption. Essay upon essay, an entire body of academic work under the subcategory of 'How The F*ck Did We Let That Happen?'

One thing that strikes me on reading this thread is that both sides believe what they say. I agree with what you just said, while Santa says there's nothing to see here, and this is perfectly okay, and both sides believe what they say. It's not the usual partisan bifocals. When it comes to Trump, there must be something in the water supply. I wonder it I'd back Trump if he was a Democrat. I hope not. I honestly believe the man is ripping the America political system to shreds, and that blaming his many attackers for that is the worst kind of political expediency.


Complete bollocks.

Trump is a comparitively harmless buffoon who's real agenda was to spend a few years in the WH talking shit and getting brown nosed by everyone. For no other reason than because he thought he was worth it. That a complete tool like him could get elected is entirely down to an entitled and complacent political elite who gave a pretty good impression of not giving much of a f*ck about much of what was happening in America. Their reaction has been to completely lose their shit and do everything humanly possible to make Trump look like some kind of f*ckin savant and martyr. The shit that was pulled to first get the Mueller investigation, and then this impeachment process, away and running is literally unbelievable - people need to go to jail.

There's an awful lot of genies that are going to need stuffing back into bottles when this over.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.

Precisely the opposite is true. He could try to justify asking for a genuine investigation in the interests of attacking corruption. (Except we know he isn't) To ask only for an announcement of an investigation into a political rival, specifically a public announcement, shows he was only interested in smearing that opponent.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.

Precisely the opposite is true. He could try to justify asking for a genuine investigation in the interests of attacking corruption. (Except we know he isn't) To ask only for an announcement of an investigation into a political rival, specifically a public announcement, shows he was only interested in smearing that opponent.


OK we're going to disagree on that point. Though you now have me convinced that he could convince you that an actual investigation was justifiable. Anyway I'll go with VDH. You can go with Rinkals and Penguin. :thumbup:

Author:  BokJock [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.
2. But it undermines a talking point about Trump seeking to have corruption investigated.
3. Except I think Trump actually thinks the Bidens are corrupt (leaving aside any hypocrisy on that point), and probably actually wanted it to be investigated at some point in some way.
4. So he possibly asked for an actual investigation but if that happens then it undermines the credibility of Sondland's testimony.

I doubt anyone can say one thing about that whole thing that covers all of that stuff off. And it's partly because with Trump we are dealing with chaos incarnate. A guy who just says stuff, without too much reflection, but driven by some preternatural instinct for power and weakness and the main point.


Then why not ask the DOJ to do it instead of having Rudy run around like a loose cannon?

The Hunter Biden thing (and we all have to be honest about this) does look kinda shady - but to be clear, just from a nepotism point of view on the hiring front.

The shutting down of the investigation into Burisma is just a Republican red heron and has been debunked.

Author:  piquant [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
piquant wrote:
if Trump sees a need to go after Hunter Biden, or even both Biden's that's fine. Present concerns/evidence to the DoJ and they'll investigate, it's sort of what they do. However don't use American taxpayer money already appropriated by Congress to aid another nation state under attack from Russia to pursue via your personal attorney an act of bribery that serves your domestic political agenda not the national interest based largely on some nonsensical conspiracy theories put forward by Russia

And don't then spend time trying to cover up said act and intimidate witnesses with some disgusting individual attacks using the bully pulpit of the president.


Why not? :?

Because it's illegal. And impeachable.


The Constitution says nothing about witness intimidation. :?


witness intimidation would rise to at least misdemeanor, no?


As an actual legal question would something like witness intimidation not come under the Necessary and Proper Clause supposing it does't in this context come under Treason?

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

BokJock wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.
2. But it undermines a talking point about Trump seeking to have corruption investigated.
3. Except I think Trump actually thinks the Bidens are corrupt (leaving aside any hypocrisy on that point), and probably actually wanted it to be investigated at some point in some way.
4. So he possibly asked for an actual investigation but if that happens then it undermines the credibility of Sondland's testimony.

I doubt anyone can say one thing about that whole thing that covers all of that stuff off. And it's partly because with Trump we are dealing with chaos incarnate. A guy who just says stuff, without too much reflection, but driven by some preternatural instinct for power and weakness and the main point.


Then why not ask the DOJ to do it instead of having Rudy run around like a loose cannon?

The Hunter Biden thing (and we all have to be honest about this) does look kinda shady - but to be clear, just from a nepotism point of view on the hiring front.

The shutting down of the investigation into Burisma is just a Republican red heron and has been debunked.


What? As I said I don't posing a single question like that can address all those points.

Author:  piquant [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.

Precisely the opposite is true. He could try to justify asking for a genuine investigation in the interests of attacking corruption. (Except we know he isn't) To ask only for an announcement of an investigation into a political rival, specifically a public announcement, shows he was only interested in smearing that opponent.



In Trump's defence once the Whistleblower complaint was known to the Whitehouse Trump did change tack to say tell Zelensky to do the right thing, and that he wanted no quid pro quo, inspiring stuff!

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
zzzz wrote:
And you are still missing the point. It really doesn't matter what is in Trumps heart and how "genuine" his concerns are. Objectively, you are still left runing a dog and pony show through the media because a sitting president asked to have a corrupt arrangement investigated.

He didn't ask to have it investigated. He asked that they say it was being investigated, and to say so publicly. Ignoring that distinction and saying it doesn't matter how genuine his concerns were, is to miss the point entirely.


Now you see this is one of those Trumpbiguities. They are quite amazing. Here, to my mind, is what is in play around that whole bit:

1. If he only asked for a statement then that is substantively less bad than actually asking for an investigation into a political rival.

Precisely the opposite is true. He could try to justify asking for a genuine investigation in the interests of attacking corruption. (Except we know he isn't) To ask only for an announcement of an investigation into a political rival, specifically a public announcement, shows he was only interested in smearing that opponent.


OK we're going to disagree on that point. Though you now have me convinced that he could convince you that an actual investigation was justifiable.

Interesting. You appear to have some sort of blindness to anything written in brackets. let me try something. Tell me the last words you see in this post

(Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet consectetuer)

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Interesting.


Not interesting. I am the arbiter of interesting.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Interesting.


Not interesting. I am the arbiter of interesting.

It's worse than I thought.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Anyway let me sum up how I think many people will think about this.

But let's first lay out some broad demographics, because this is getting a bit lost:
There is a group that don't think an investigation or statement are wrong.
There is a group that thinks it might be wrong.
There is a group that thinks it is definitely wrong.

What I am about to say only applies to group 2 because groups 1 and 3 have fixed views.

Which is worse: to a) do something bad or b) to talk about doing something bad?*

I think many people will chose b and will thereby conclude that a statement is less bad than an actual investigation.

They will ignore the drivel. Either because they don't care or they don't have the time or brain power to sift through all the shit.

That will be the basic calculus. Of group 2.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Interesting.


Not interesting. I am the arbiter of interesting.

It's worse than I thought.


Try arguing the points. You guys have about 2 posts worth of material before you go to the matresses.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Interesting.


Not interesting. I am the arbiter of interesting.

It's worse than I thought.


Try arguing the points. You guys have about 2 posts worth of material before you go to the matresses.

I've long since learned that debating substantively with someone who is mostly taking the piss is not a productive exercise. It's like trying to teach an omelette to use power tools. So I take this about as seriously as you and Seneca do. Fair's fair.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Interesting.


Not interesting. I am the arbiter of interesting.

It's worse than I thought.


Try arguing the points. You guys have about 2 posts worth of material before you go to the matresses.

I've long since learned that debating substantively with someone who is mostly taking the piss is not a productive exercise. It's like trying to teach an omelette to use power tools. So I take this about as seriously as you and Seneca do. Fair's fair.


It is possible to take a piss because it is fun AND because you need to.

Author:  Waratah [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

And anyway I'm going to bed. Early start tomorrow.

Author:  Santa [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Waratah wrote:
And anyway I'm going to bed. Early start tomorrow.


Nighty night. :thumbup:

Author:  Flyin Ryan [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Santa wrote:
Waratah wrote:
Santa wrote:
How about because whatever happened was minor, inconsequential and not impeachable?

Bribery is impeachable and Trump is bang to rights.


Take it up with MccCarthy:

Quote:
Even assuming Trump's intent was corrupt, this is not the bribery the Framers had in mind in the impeachment clause. The Constitution makes bribery a predicate for impeaching and removing a president. Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff is pushing the theory that President Trump has committed impeachable bribery because, as Schiff sees it, the president’s conduct violates a subsection of the federal bribery statute.

As in most criminal statutes, Congress includes several crimes in the bribery law. The offenses have gradations of seriousness, ranging from directly paying a public official a lavish bribe, to a public official’s indirectly agreeing to receive (but not ultimately receiving) some “thing of value” to be influenced in some official act. Like some of the lesser bribery offenses, the one Schiff is homing in on does not require an actual bribery (in the sense of an actual payoff).

Specifically, he is accusing the president of making a “corrupt demand.”

Under the law, if a public official, with corrupt intent, demands that someone provide him a bribe (a “thing of value”) as a condition for performing an “official act,” that is enough to prove guilt, even if the official drops the demand before something of value is exchanged. The Democrats’ theory is that Trump, intending nothing other the advancement of his own political interests (i.e., improving his 2020 reelection chances), corruptly demanded that Ukraine conduct investigations of his political rivals in exchange for two official acts — viz., granting a White House visit for Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky and transferring $400 million in military aid authorized by Congress to help Ukraine defend against Russian aggression.

Schiff theorizes that this statutory bribery crime was complete when the demand was made; it makes no difference that the demand was dropped, and the Ukrainians got their aid. (Zelensky has not yet visited the White House, but Trump did meet him publicly at a session attendant to the annual U.N. festivities in September.)

To be clear, I do not believe Trump could be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of bribery because there are significant proof problems, on the issues of both (a) corrupt intent and (b) the causal connection between the purported demand and the official acts. (On the latter, I’ve argued that it is foolish for Republicans to deny the existence of a quid pro quo; that does not mean the proof is strong enough to convict in court — so far, the circumstantial evidence that Trump ordered the defense aid to be withheld is not airtight.)

For present purposes, though, I want to focus on bribery — specifically, on what the Framers had in mind when they wrote bribery into the Constitution as a predicate for impeachment.

Hint: It was not the above-described federal bribery statute, the current version of which was enacted in 1962, some 175 years after the Constitution was written.

The Framers made “Treason, Bribery, and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors” the triggers for impeachment. Obviously, they were referring to bribery of a high order, on the scale of treason. The latter offense involves making war on the U.S., including giving the enemy aid and comfort. Enemies are foreign powers with which we are at war. The Framers, however, were worried that other foreign powers — even ones with which we are at peace — could corrupt an American president. Bribery was meant to fill that gap. It made impeachment available if a president was bribed by a foreign power to put the might of the United States in the service of the foreign power at the expense of the American people.

Schiff and the Democrats would reject this construction of bribery in the Constitution. Their position is that if it’s bribery under the federal statute, that’s good enough to impeach a president.

But is that really what they think?

On Wednesday, Ambassador Gordon Sondland testified about the two afore-described “official acts” that the Ukrainians sought from President Trump. Sondland said he could only be sure about one of them: the White House visit. As for the second, Sondland could only “deduce” that Trump was holding back on the defense aid to nudge Ukraine into announcing the investigations. Over time, Sondland inferred that the aid was being delayed and worried that it might not be transferred. He directly asked President Trump, who exclaimed that there was “no quid pro quo” — though this was less than convincing: Trump continued to insist that he wanted to Zelensky to do what was “right,” and Sondland understood that the aid was caught in a “stalemate” that could be undone only if it announced it would do the investigations.

Democrats spent most of Sondland’s hours of testimony pushing him very hard on this second official act, the provision of defense aid. Schiff and majority counsel, Daniel Goldman, repeatedly walked Sondland through the timeline and got him to agree that he’d “put two and two together.” Why the vigorous effort to induce an admission (which Sondland could not give) that the aid was absolutely conditional on the investigations?

Because Schiff knows that not all bribery is created equal. He knows the first official act is not good enough for impeachment, even if it’s good enough for the federal bribery statute. That is: No one in America except the most ardent anti-Trumpers is going to support the impeachment of the president of the United States over the mere denial of a White House visit to a foreign politician.

Let’s assume, for argument’s sake, that all the facts were as the Democrats claim, including that the president’s intent was corrupt. That would indeed establish a corrupt demand under the bribery statute, just as Schiff theorizes. But Schiff knows, like everyone knows, that that would not be close to the bribery needed to justify impeaching and removing a president.

And that’s because the Democrats’ theory is simply wrong. A violation of the federal bribery statute is not the bribery the Framers had in mind in the impeachment clause.

Schiff is anxious to tie the defense aid to the quid pro quo, too, because it’s clearly more serious than denying the White House visit. But that betrays his real problem: A statutory bribery offense is not necessarily enough. Even if he can prove one, there’s a big leap to impeachment and removal.

As we’ve said several times, impeachment is political, not legal. Congress does not need to prove a statutory crime; and no court can tell the House what an impeachable offense is — the brute fact is that Democrats are the majority, and they have the raw power to cite any alleged misconduct that can win a simple majority vote.

Yet, in the GOP-controlled Senate, a two-thirds’ supermajority is necessary to convict and remove a president from power. If House Democrats go down their bribery road, the Senate will have the opportunity to consider what the Framers had in mind when they put bribery in the impeachment clause. Here’s betting the senators will not conclude that a “corrupt demand” makes the cut.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/ ... peachment/


See, this is a nice well-thought out review of the situation that if stated in the House would be a good argument on why to not impeach the president.

It's sad none of the Republican Congressmen in the Intelligence Committee can rise to the occasion and are capable of stating this.

The National Review article kind of makes this a bit clearer for me as far as "corrupt demand". I'm on board with Trump knew what he was doing and did it, this impeachment process is just a charade though because they're not going to get 20 out of 53 Republican Senators to vote for conviction in this political environment, so this is a repeat of Clinton. The thing is, Trump being a guy heavily involved in real estate his whole life and is from the cesspool that is New York, I'm sure he did this in business all the time, so he doesn't even view this as illegal.

Author:  BokJock [ Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: POTUS-DONALD TRUMP-and U.S. Politics catch-all

Written in 1973

Quote:
The Original Art Buchwald Column: “Response List For Nixon Backers”

These are difficult times for people who are defending the Nixon administration. No matter where they go they are attracted by pseudo-liberals, McGovern lovers, heterosexual constitutionalists, and paranoid John Dean believers.

As a public service, I am printing instant responses for loyal Nixonites when they are attacked at a party. Please cut it out and carry it in your pocket.

Everyone does it.
What about Chappaquiddick?
A president can’t keep track of everything his staff does.
The press is blowing the whole thing up.
Whatever Nixon did was for national security
The Democrats are sore because they lost the election.
Are you going to believe a rat like John Dean or the President of the United States?
Wait till all the facts come out.
What about Chappaquiddick?
If you impeach Nixon, you get Agnew.
The only thing wrong with Watergate is they got caught.
What about Daniel Ellsberg stealing the Pentagon papers?
It happens in Europe all the time.
People would be against Nixon no matter what he did.
I’d rather have a crook in the White House than a fool.
LBJ used to read FBI reports every night.
What’s the big deal about finding out what your opposition is up to?
The President was too busy running the country to know what was going on.
What about Chappaquiddick?
People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
McGovern would have lost anyway.
Maybe the Committee to Reelect the President went a little too far, but they were just a bunch of eager kids.
I’m not for breaking the law, but sometimes you have to do it to save the country.
Nixon made a mistake. He’s only human.
Do you realize what Watergate is doing to the dollar abroad?
What about Harry Truman and the deep freeze scandal?
Franklin D. Roosevelt did a lot worse things.
I’m sick and tired of hearing about Watergate and so is everybody else.
This thing should be tried in the courts and not on television.
When Nixon gives his explanation of what happened there are going to be a lot of people in this country with egg on their faces.
My country right or wrong.
What about Chappaquiddick?
I think the people who make all this fuss about Watergate should be shot.
If the Democrats had the money they would have done the same thing.
I never trusted Haldeman and Ehrlichman to start with.
If you say one more word about Watergate I’ll punch you in the nose.
If the person is bigger than you: “If you say one more word about Watergate I’m leaving this house.”
If it’s your own house and the person’s bigger than you: “What about Chappaquiddick?”

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