Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

The gender pay gap is a myth. Women wants to have the luxury of working less because they chose motherhood and still get the same pay. Infact they expect it. Having a kid is a personal choice but according to them society owes them for making that choice.

If they were really paid less then wouldn't businesses hire them in spades because it would cost them less.
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Farva
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

Oceanbreeze wrote:The gender pay gap is a myth. Women wants to have the luxury of working less because they chose motherhood and still get the same pay. Infact they expect it. Having a kid is a personal choice but according to them society owes them for making that choice.

If they were really paid less then wouldn't businesses hire them in spades because it would cost them less.
When those factors you mention are taken into account, the pay gap is 7%
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Gradu ... ations.pdf
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deadduck
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by deadduck »

Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
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Farva
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

deadduck wrote:Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
You need actual proof. I would think that is nearly impossible to get, given both the secrecy surrounding salaries, and the fact that the discrimination in selections for higher positions are nearly always subconscious, and when they are not, there are enough other reasons to blur the lines.

Having said that, when numbers are analysed, and the reasons raised before are taken into account, a number of studies have found that there is still a differential in pay. I posted one earlier. Last time this topic came up I posted another.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Farva wrote:
deadduck wrote:Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
You need actual proof. I would think that is nearly impossible to get, given both the secrecy surrounding salaries, and the fact that the discrimination in selections for higher positions are nearly always subconscious, and when they are not, there are enough other reasons to blur the lines.

Having said that, when numbers are analysed, and the reasons raised before are taken into account, a number of studies have found that there is still a differential in pay. I posted one earlier. Last time this topic came up I posted another.
In April, the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, persuaded members of her political party, the Christian Democratic Union, to defeat a measure in Parliament which would have mandated that twenty per cent of public companies’ supervisory boards be comprised of women by 2018; that proportion would have risen to forty per cent by 2023. Merkel has long opposed such quotas, which are popular elsewhere in Europe. At the time, parliamentary elections were approaching, and Merkel appeased a dissenting bloc of her party—which wanted the reforms—by agreeing to write a gender quota into the party’s election program.

On Sunday, her party made good on that promise: the C.D.U. and its new left-leaning governing partner, the Social Democrats, agreed that by 2016 supervisory boards at German public companies should be made up of at least thirty per cent women. (In Europe, companies have supervisory boards, made of outside directors, and executive boards, made of top management.) Companies that don’t achieve the goal have to leave the seats open.

Gender quotas have been an emotional and contentious issue across Europe, and in Germany, where corporate life has long been dominated by men, the issue has been especially divisive. While many of its European neighbors have already instituted such quotas, Germany has long resisted. Supporters of a quota argue that German companies, left to their own devices, are not making fast enough progress in diversifying their boards and their executive ranks: in 2012, only four per cent of executives at Germany’s top two hundred companies were women. Quota opponents, such as the Federation of German Industries, a lobbying group, counter that quotas put undue pressure on companies to fill top positions with unqualified women—especially in typically male-dominated fields, such as technology, chemicals, and construction, where the number of female graduates is relatively low.

Annette Widmann-Mauz, the C.D.U.’s negotiator with the Social Democrats, said the measure marks “a cultural shift in the corporate sector,” though she added that her party still opposes a government-mandated quota for top management, which the Social Democrats also sought. Amid the debate, one question has kept cropping up: Does installing women in top management positions make any difference in how well a company performs?

Perceptions differ among men and women. Sixty-four per cent of women surveyed by McKinsey for a 2012 report said they strongly believe that “gender diversity is an important driver of company performance.” Only forty per cent of men agreed.

Further complicating matters, much of the research on financial performance and female leadership tends to be sponsored by groups with an interest in boosting women’s representation in business, like Catalyst, a U.S. nonprofit.
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guy smiley
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by guy smiley »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
Farva wrote:
deadduck wrote:Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
You need actual proof. I would think that is nearly impossible to get, given both the secrecy surrounding salaries, and the fact that the discrimination in selections for higher positions are nearly always subconscious, and when they are not, there are enough other reasons to blur the lines.

Having said that, when numbers are analysed, and the reasons raised before are taken into account, a number of studies have found that there is still a differential in pay. I posted one earlier. Last time this topic came up I posted another.
In April, the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, persuaded members of her political party, the Christian Democratic Union, to defeat a measure in Parliament which would have mandated that twenty per cent of public companies’ supervisory boards be comprised of women by 2018; that proportion would have risen to forty per cent by 2023. Merkel has long opposed such quotas, which are popular elsewhere in Europe. At the time, parliamentary elections were approaching, and Merkel appeased a dissenting bloc of her party—which wanted the reforms—by agreeing to write a gender quota into the party’s election program.

On Sunday, her party made good on that promise: the C.D.U. and its new left-leaning governing partner, the Social Democrats, agreed that by 2016 supervisory boards at German public companies should be made up of at least thirty per cent women. (In Europe, companies have supervisory boards, made of outside directors, and executive boards, made of top management.) Companies that don’t achieve the goal have to leave the seats open.

Gender quotas have been an emotional and contentious issue across Europe, and in Germany, where corporate life has long been dominated by men, the issue has been especially divisive. While many of its European neighbors have already instituted such quotas, Germany has long resisted. Supporters of a quota argue that German companies, left to their own devices, are not making fast enough progress in diversifying their boards and their executive ranks: in 2012, only four per cent of executives at Germany’s top two hundred companies were women. Quota opponents, such as the Federation of German Industries, a lobbying group, counter that quotas put undue pressure on companies to fill top positions with unqualified women—especially in typically male-dominated fields, such as technology, chemicals, and construction, where the number of female graduates is relatively low.

Annette Widmann-Mauz, the C.D.U.’s negotiator with the Social Democrats, said the measure marks “a cultural shift in the corporate sector,” though she added that her party still opposes a government-mandated quota for top management, which the Social Democrats also sought. Amid the debate, one question has kept cropping up: Does installing women in top management positions make any difference in how well a company performs?

Perceptions differ among men and women. Sixty-four per cent of women surveyed by McKinsey for a 2012 report said they strongly believe that “gender diversity is an important driver of company performance.” Only forty per cent of men agreed.

Further complicating matters, much of the research on financial performance and female leadership tends to be sponsored by groups with an interest in boosting women’s representation in business, like Catalyst, a U.S. nonprofit.

You haven't got a clue, have you?
merlin the happy pig
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by merlin the happy pig »

Farva wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:The gender pay gap is a myth. Women wants to have the luxury of working less because they chose motherhood and still get the same pay. Infact they expect it. Having a kid is a personal choice but according to them society owes them for making that choice.

If they were really paid less then wouldn't businesses hire them in spades because it would cost them less.
When those factors you mention are taken into account, the pay gap is 7%
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Gradu ... ations.pdf
It's nice to see a proper study which does control for the obvious factors.
Much more convincing than the 77% headline figure i've heard quoted here by people as reputable as Mae Chen, a very well known lawyer here in NZ.

To me the obvious exaggeration of other figures surely makes many believe what the OP does, I.E it's a crock.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
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Farva
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

merlin the happy pig wrote:
Farva wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:The gender pay gap is a myth. Women wants to have the luxury of working less because they chose motherhood and still get the same pay. Infact they expect it. Having a kid is a personal choice but according to them society owes them for making that choice.

If they were really paid less then wouldn't businesses hire them in spades because it would cost them less.
When those factors you mention are taken into account, the pay gap is 7%
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Gradu ... ations.pdf
It's nice to see a proper study which does control for the obvious factors.
Much more convincing than the 77% headline figure i've heard quoted here by people as reputable as Mae Chen, a very well known lawyer here in NZ.

To me the obvious exaggeration of other figures surely makes many believe what the OP does, I.E it's a crock.
I think that spouting the unadjusted number hurts the cause of equality. Like you say, its an exaggeration and discredits the people making the argument.
Really, there is a gap, its not as big as it was as we are getting more tolerant, and a womens value in the work force is being realised. But there is still a gap and we need to work to remove that.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

guy smiley wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:
Farva wrote:
deadduck wrote:Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
You need actual proof. I would think that is nearly impossible to get, given both the secrecy surrounding salaries, and the fact that the discrimination in selections for higher positions are nearly always subconscious, and when they are not, there are enough other reasons to blur the lines.

Having said that, when numbers are analysed, and the reasons raised before are taken into account, a number of studies have found that there is still a differential in pay. I posted one earlier. Last time this topic came up I posted another.
In April, the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, persuaded members of her political party, the Christian Democratic Union, to defeat a measure in Parliament which would have mandated that twenty per cent of public companies’ supervisory boards be comprised of women by 2018; that proportion would have risen to forty per cent by 2023. Merkel has long opposed such quotas, which are popular elsewhere in Europe. At the time, parliamentary elections were approaching, and Merkel appeased a dissenting bloc of her party—which wanted the reforms—by agreeing to write a gender quota into the party’s election program.

On Sunday, her party made good on that promise: the C.D.U. and its new left-leaning governing partner, the Social Democrats, agreed that by 2016 supervisory boards at German public companies should be made up of at least thirty per cent women. (In Europe, companies have supervisory boards, made of outside directors, and executive boards, made of top management.) Companies that don’t achieve the goal have to leave the seats open.

Gender quotas have been an emotional and contentious issue across Europe, and in Germany, where corporate life has long been dominated by men, the issue has been especially divisive. While many of its European neighbors have already instituted such quotas, Germany has long resisted. Supporters of a quota argue that German companies, left to their own devices, are not making fast enough progress in diversifying their boards and their executive ranks: in 2012, only four per cent of executives at Germany’s top two hundred companies were women. Quota opponents, such as the Federation of German Industries, a lobbying group, counter that quotas put undue pressure on companies to fill top positions with unqualified women—especially in typically male-dominated fields, such as technology, chemicals, and construction, where the number of female graduates is relatively low.

Annette Widmann-Mauz, the C.D.U.’s negotiator with the Social Democrats, said the measure marks “a cultural shift in the corporate sector,” though she added that her party still opposes a government-mandated quota for top management, which the Social Democrats also sought. Amid the debate, one question has kept cropping up: Does installing women in top management positions make any difference in how well a company performs?

Perceptions differ among men and women. Sixty-four per cent of women surveyed by McKinsey for a 2012 report said they strongly believe that “gender diversity is an important driver of company performance.” Only forty per cent of men agreed.

Further complicating matters, much of the research on financial performance and female leadership tends to be sponsored by groups with an interest in boosting women’s representation in business, like Catalyst, a U.S. nonprofit.

You haven't got a clue, have you?
Let's see, majority of research that supports a pay gap existence are from groups interested in boosting feminism. And then you have quotas on company to include unqualified women on the board. Then you have the same group that are interested in boosting feminism make a research that concludes having women in corporate board is a good thing.

Yep definitely no idea what's going in.
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nicebutdim
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by nicebutdim »

Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are fudge'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Farva wrote:
merlin the happy pig wrote:
Farva wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:The gender pay gap is a myth. Women wants to have the luxury of working less because they chose motherhood and still get the same pay. Infact they expect it. Having a kid is a personal choice but according to them society owes them for making that choice.

If they were really paid less then wouldn't businesses hire them in spades because it would cost them less.
When those factors you mention are taken into account, the pay gap is 7%
http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Gradu ... ations.pdf
It's nice to see a proper study which does control for the obvious factors.
Much more convincing than the 77% headline figure i've heard quoted here by people as reputable as Mae Chen, a very well known lawyer here in NZ.

To me the obvious exaggeration of other figures surely makes many believe what the OP does, I.E it's a crock.
I think that spouting the unadjusted number hurts the cause of equality. Like you say, its an exaggeration and discredits the people making the argument.
Really, there is a gap, its not as big as it was as we are getting more tolerant, and a womens value in the work force is being realised. But there is still a gap and we need to work to remove that.
For the life of me I just don't believe that Western women especially feminist would be quiet if they were paid less for doing exactly the same hours and getting the same results. That is illegal therefore they would get compensation and we all know they would like that.
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Farva
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:
Farva wrote:
deadduck wrote:Any woman who can verify that she's unfairly paid less than her male counterparts for the same job/skills/experience/competency should get straight onto the phone with an employment lawyer as it's illegal in almost all Western countries to discriminate pay on the basis of gender.

But you don't hear of many, if any, of these cases. Odd that.
You need actual proof. I would think that is nearly impossible to get, given both the secrecy surrounding salaries, and the fact that the discrimination in selections for higher positions are nearly always subconscious, and when they are not, there are enough other reasons to blur the lines.

Having said that, when numbers are analysed, and the reasons raised before are taken into account, a number of studies have found that there is still a differential in pay. I posted one earlier. Last time this topic came up I posted another.
In April, the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, persuaded members of her political party, the Christian Democratic Union, to defeat a measure in Parliament which would have mandated that twenty per cent of public companies’ supervisory boards be comprised of women by 2018; that proportion would have risen to forty per cent by 2023. Merkel has long opposed such quotas, which are popular elsewhere in Europe. At the time, parliamentary elections were approaching, and Merkel appeased a dissenting bloc of her party—which wanted the reforms—by agreeing to write a gender quota into the party’s election program.

On Sunday, her party made good on that promise: the C.D.U. and its new left-leaning governing partner, the Social Democrats, agreed that by 2016 supervisory boards at German public companies should be made up of at least thirty per cent women. (In Europe, companies have supervisory boards, made of outside directors, and executive boards, made of top management.) Companies that don’t achieve the goal have to leave the seats open.

Gender quotas have been an emotional and contentious issue across Europe, and in Germany, where corporate life has long been dominated by men, the issue has been especially divisive. While many of its European neighbors have already instituted such quotas, Germany has long resisted. Supporters of a quota argue that German companies, left to their own devices, are not making fast enough progress in diversifying their boards and their executive ranks: in 2012, only four per cent of executives at Germany’s top two hundred companies were women. Quota opponents, such as the Federation of German Industries, a lobbying group, counter that quotas put undue pressure on companies to fill top positions with unqualified women—especially in typically male-dominated fields, such as technology, chemicals, and construction, where the number of female graduates is relatively low.

Annette Widmann-Mauz, the C.D.U.’s negotiator with the Social Democrats, said the measure marks “a cultural shift in the corporate sector,” though she added that her party still opposes a government-mandated quota for top management, which the Social Democrats also sought. Amid the debate, one question has kept cropping up: Does installing women in top management positions make any difference in how well a company performs?

Perceptions differ among men and women. Sixty-four per cent of women surveyed by McKinsey for a 2012 report said they strongly believe that “gender diversity is an important driver of company performance.” Only forty per cent of men agreed.

Further complicating matters, much of the research on financial performance and female leadership tends to be sponsored by groups with an interest in boosting women’s representation in business, like Catalyst, a U.S. nonprofit.

You haven't got a clue, have you?
Let's see, majority of research that supports a pay gap existence are from groups interested in boosting feminism. And then you have quotas on company to include unqualified women on the board. Then you have the same group that are interested in boosting feminism make a research that concludes having women in corporate board is a good thing.

Yep definitely no idea what's going in.
So you cant discuss the data, so you elect to try and discredit by creating a strawman argument.

The Glassdoor data I posted has no link to any vested interest. Its an employer rating website. How about you debate that?
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MungoMan
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by MungoMan »

Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

nicebutdim wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are f**k'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
If anything having quotas is unequal to men because regardless of their experiences and qualifications they have to lose out on unqualified women who thinks they got the position on merit.
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Farva
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Farva »

MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
You may be on to something with the graph / table comment.
But off the mark for the source, its in the link in the sentence directly above it.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Farva wrote:
MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
You may be on to something with the graph / table comment.
But off the mark for the source, its in the link in the sentence directly above it.
This study examines the gender pay gap using a unique data set of hundreds of thousands of Glassdoor salaries shared anonymously by employees online.
anonymous being the operative word.
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Zakar
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Zakar »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are f**k'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
If anything having quotas is unequal to men because regardless of their experiences and qualifications they have to lose out on unqualified women who thinks they got the position on merit.
Erm, they're not putting bints who were working the checkout at poundland in doctors scrubs. I think the biggest difference is lack of experience.

As someone who works in a field where the majority of graduates are women, and have been for some time (law), it's never really bothered me. For starters, there's plenty to look at.

I know I can talk sport to the male bosses and get ahead, and I'm good looking enough that the female bosses all like me. Easy.
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nicebutdim
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by nicebutdim »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are f**k'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
If anything having quotas is unequal to men because regardless of their experiences and qualifications they have to lose out on unqualified women who thinks they got the position on merit.
I certainly dont disagree with you. Quotas are rubbish but thats why I hire gay black men.... I call it karma.
Last edited by nicebutdim on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Oceanbreeze
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Zakar wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are f**k'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
If anything having quotas is unequal to men because regardless of their experiences and qualifications they have to lose out on unqualified women who thinks they got the position on merit.
Erm, they're not putting bints who were working the checkout at poundland in doctors scrubs. I think the biggest difference is lack of experience.

As someone who works in a field where the majority of graduates are women, and have been for some time (law), it's never really bothered me. For starters, there's plenty to look at.

I know I can talk sport to the male bosses and get ahead, and I'm good looking enough that the female bosses all like me. Easy.
You're helping the argument mate. An experienced men is overlooked because of his gender. That's not equality, that's slavery.
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Laurent
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Laurent »

bunch of grumpy old men

and a few teenage wannabees

:lol:
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Oceanbreeze wrote: You're helping the argument mate. An experienced men is overlooked because of his gender. That's not equality, that's slavery.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Laurent wrote:bunch of grumpy old men

and a few teenage wannabees

:lol:
I know right. What are they like!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Zakar »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:
nicebutdim wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
But women are f**k'ing irratating, are emotionally volatile and have shit banter.... all big negatives in the workplace outisde of Primary Schools. The quota system is working fine though so I am not sure what they are complaining about. Companies are taking on droves of median IQers who temporarily suppress their maternal instincts making them miserable and too confused to think clearly. All in all everyone loses. Not sure why we need to feverishly support MoreOfTheSame.
If anything having quotas is unequal to men because regardless of their experiences and qualifications they have to lose out on unqualified women who thinks they got the position on merit.
Erm, they're not putting bints who were working the checkout at poundland in doctors scrubs. I think the biggest difference is lack of experience.

As someone who works in a field where the majority of graduates are women, and have been for some time (law), it's never really bothered me. For starters, there's plenty to look at.

I know I can talk sport to the male bosses and get ahead, and I'm good looking enough that the female bosses all like me. Easy.
You're helping the argument mate. An experienced men is overlooked because of his gender. That's not equality, that's slavery.
I'm not really arguing. To enforce quotas it's usually means employing a women who is qualified but has a couple less years of experience to raise kids. Are those couple of years important? Depends on the field.

Sometimes it might be worth it for a different view point, other times not.

Anyway it's only the weak that are offing themselves over it. Better off without them anyway.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by MungoMan »

Farva wrote:
MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
You may be on to something with the graph / table comment.
But off the mark for the source, its in the link in the sentence directly above it.
The link is the source of the graphic.

I'm interested in the source of the numbers.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Zakar wrote:
I'm not really arguing. To enforce quotas it's usually means employing a women who is qualified but has a couple less years of experience to raise kids. Are those couple of years important? Depends on the field.

Sometimes it might be worth it for a different view point, other times not.

Anyway it's only the weak that are offing themselves over it. Better off without them anyway.
That's a good point. I guess in that situation where other qualities are taken into consideration then yeah why not.

However my point was more on those who have absolutely no idea what to do or even say.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by aitch@wasps »

You do all seem rather concerned about it so there must be something in it, eh?

Interesting how money focused you all are too, as if earning power somehow epitomises masculinity.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:
MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
You may be on to something with the graph / table comment.
But off the mark for the source, its in the link in the sentence directly above it.
The link is the source of the graphic.

I'm interested in the source of the numbers.
Isn't the source anonymous??
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

aitch@wasps wrote:You do all seem rather concerned about it so there must be something in it, eh?

Interesting how money focused you all are too, as if earning power somehow epitomises masculinity.
It's only important because Men are still expected to play their roles compared to women.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by nicebutdim »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
aitch@wasps wrote:You do all seem rather concerned about it so there must be something in it, eh?

Interesting how money focused you all are too, as if earning power somehow epitomises masculinity.
It's only important because Men are still expected to play their roles compared to women.
The sexism targetted at Men in the Western world is repugnant. Unfortunately white straight men cant say anything otherwise it implies they agree with gang rapings in India.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
aitch@wasps wrote:You do all seem rather concerned about it so there must be something in it, eh?

Interesting how money focused you all are too, as if earning power somehow epitomises masculinity.
It's only important because Men are still expected to play their roles compared to women.
Unless you're a feminist

Meanwhile, au sujet de quotas and "unfair hiring practices":
The False Promise of Meritocracy
Managers who believe themselves to be fair and objective judges of ability often overlook women and minorities who are deserving of job offers and pay increases.

Americans are, compared with populations of other countries, particularly enthusiastic about the idea of meritocracy, a system that rewards merit (ability + effort) with success. Americans are more likely to believe that people are rewarded for their intelligence and skills and are less likely to believe that family wealth plays a key role in getting ahead. And Americans’ support for meritocratic principles has remained stable over the last two decades despite growing economic inequality, recessions, and the fact that there is less mobility in the United States than in most other industrialized countries.

This strong commitment to meritocratic ideals can lead to suspicion of efforts that aim to support particular demographic groups. For example, initiatives designed to recruit or provide development opportunities to under-represented groups often come under attack as “reverse discrimination.” Some companies even justify not having diversity policies by highlighting their commitment to meritocracy. If a company evaluates people on their skills, abilities, and merit, without consideration of their gender, race, sexuality etc., and managers are objective in their assessments then there is no need for diversity policies, the thinking goes.

But is this true? Do commitments to meritocracy and objectivity lead to more fair workplaces?

Emilio J. Castilla, a professor at MIT’s Sloan School of Management, has explored how meritocratic ideals and HR practices like pay-for-performance play out in organizations, and he’s come to some unexpected conclusions.

In one company study, Castilla examined almost 9,000 employees who worked as support-staff at a large service-sector company. The company was committed to diversity and had implemented a merit-driven compensation system intended to reward high-level performance and to reward all employees equitably.

But Castilla’s analysis revealed some very non-meritocratic outcomes. Women, ethnic minorities, and non-U.S.-born employees received a smaller increase in compensation compared with white men, despite holding the same jobs, working in the same units, having the same supervisors, the same human capital, and importantly, receiving the same performance score. Despite stating that “performance is the primary bases for all salary increases,” the reality was that women, minorities, and those born outside the U.S. needed “to work harder and obtain higher performance scores in order to receive similar salary increases to white men.”

These findings led Castilla to wonder if organizational cultures and practices designed to promote meritocracy actually accomplished the opposite. Could it be that the pursuit of meritocracy somehow triggered bias? Along with his colleague, the Indiana University sociology professor Stephen Bernard, they designed a series of lab experiments to find out. Each experiment had the same outcome. When a company’s core values emphasized meritocratic values, those in managerial positions awarded a larger monetary reward to the male employee than to an equally performing female employee. Castilla and Bernard termed their counter intuitive result “the paradox of meritocracy.”

The paradox of meritocracy builds on other research showing that those who think they are the most objective can actually exhibit the most bias in their evaluations. When people think they are objective and unbiased then they don’t monitor and scrutinize their own behavior. They just assume that they are right and that their assessments are accurate. Yet, studies repeatedly show that stereotypes of all kinds (gender, ethnicity, age, disability etc.) are filters through which we evaluate others, often in ways that advantage dominant groups and disadvantage lower-status groups. For example, studies repeatedly find that the resumes of whites and men are evaluated more positively than are the identical resumes of minorities and women.

This dynamic is precisely why meritocracy can exacerbate inequality—because being committed to meritocratic principles makes people think that they actually are making correct evaluations and behaving fairly. Organizations that emphasize meritocratic ideals serve to reinforce an employee’s belief that they are impartial, which creates the exact conditions under which implicit and explicit biases are unleashed.

“The pursuit of meritocracy is more difficult than it appears,” Castilla said at a recent conference hosted by the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford, “but that doesn’t mean the pursuit is futile. My research provides a cautionary lesson that practices implemented to increase fairness and equity need to be carefully thought through so that potential opportunities for bias are addressed.” While companies may want to hire and promote the best and brightest, it’s easier said than done.

GapJumpers, a Silicon Valley start-up, is focused on making meritocracy a reality by taking a skills-first approach to identifying the highest-performing talent. Modeled after research showing that blind auditions block biased evaluations, GapJumpers developed an online technology platform that enables hiring managers to hold blind audition challenges. In the challenges, job applicants are given mini assignments that are designed to assess the applicant for the specific skills required for the open position. All submissions are evaluated and ranked, and the top-performing submissions (minus any applicant identifiers) are then reviewed by the hiring manager who selects candidates to bring in to interview. The result: About 60 percent of the top talent identified through GapJumpers’ blind audition process come from underrepresented backgrounds.

Hiring managers do not expect this outcome. “The high percentage of underrepresented applicants that make it through the skills-first screening process is often met with suspicion,” says Sharon Jank, a social psychologist and Ph.D. candidate at Stanford University, who is conducting her doctoral research with GapJumpers. In her work, Jank has observed that “hiring managers tend to be surprised that the top performing submissions they pick to advance very often come from applicants without an elite education, training, or experience. This suggests blind performance auditions are a powerful tool to manage bias and address the pervasive and incorrect assumption that elite pedigree best predicts performance of on the job skills."

“Our biases lead to sub-optimal talent selection decisions when evaluating resumes,” says GapJumpers cofounder Kédar Iyer. “By scaling the successful and proven method of blind performance auditions, GapJumpers’ results show that real work performance trumps labels on a resume.”

In addition to blind auditions, transparency and accountability also support more meritocratic outcomes. Recently, Castilla published the results from a longitudinal study he conducted with the same large service-sector company that he had studied years earlier. After learning from Castilla’s analysis that there were pay disparities in their organization (white men received more compensation than equally performing women, minorities, and non-U.S.-born individuals) the company asked Castilla to recommend practices to close the pay gap.

Drawing on research showing that transparency and accountability reduce bias because, among other things, transparency provides the information needed to track inequity and accountability puts people on notice that their decisions will be monitored, Castilla counseled the company on actions they could take.

The company then made many changes such as creating a performance-reward committee to monitor compensation increases and sharing information with top management about pay broken down by gender, race, and foreign nationality. When Castilla analyzed the data five years after these changes were introduced he found that the demographic pay gap had disappeared.

American beliefs about the rightness of meritocratic ideals often leads to the belief that those ideals are what guides society. But research shows that a real commitment to meritocracy requires understanding that America hasn’t gotten there—at least not yet. It is this insight that leads to the adoption of practices that will ultimately result in a society where merit truly does equal ability + effort.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... cy/418074/
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by MungoMan »

Oceanbreeze wrote:
MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:
MungoMan wrote:
Farva wrote:Not sure what quoting this website - http://www.euractiv.com/section/justice ... s-ceiling/ - has got to do with the price of cheese?

Here is another study anyway - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-24/3 ... ch/7274100
It found a 5% gap (adjusted for all the reasons listed) in the US and UK and 4% in Oz.
Further broken down here - https://www.glassdoor.com/research/stud ... r-pay-gap/

This is quite a telling graph anyway.

Image
It's a table, or possible a figure. It certainly aint a graph.

And what it tells me is that no source for anything is given, therefore I may safely ignore it.
You may be on to something with the graph / table comment.
But off the mark for the source, its in the link in the sentence directly above it.
The link is the source of the graphic.

I'm interested in the source of the numbers.
Isn't the source anonymous??
Cripes. Anon. gets blamed for all manner of things but I truly feel this is a bridge too far.
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by eldanielfire »

deadduck wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:I'm just really curious to hear Western mens view on this! According to popular opinions it's one of the major cause of male suicide and stress in the Western World.
Given how women are attacked in with masses brutal misogyny for daring expressing an opinion on social media, in a way that isn't repeated towards men for the same thing suggests we've a long way to go before women are treaten or seen as equals. When even the far left who are supposed to be the ones who are pushing the equality agenda gives BBC news editor Laura Kuenssberg the sort of vile sexist treatment her predecessor never recieved for the same accusation shows feminism hasn't gone close to far enough. Though that won't stop lots of privilaged men complaining on any concession or minor win women get.

What about when people lose their jobs and livelihoods because of a fairly tame joke that was overheard? (donglegate)

Or when an elderly man is abused so much due to his 'antifeminist' comments that it's thought to have contributed to his stroke? (Richard Dawkins)
I'm not saying some feminists aren't dickheads. But quoting a few fairly unique are rare cases in a world where there are more CEOs named John then there are women and just about every female MP on social media has to put up with misogyny and more intense and frequent cases of hate messages is clearly not balanced. For men's a few incoviences to the overall balance of privilage, for women it's frequently everyday hate and biogtry.

Here's a good example where some male sports presenters unknowingly read some fairly standard tweets their female coworkers recieve in a recent campaign to rais awareness. They pretty much of the sexist abuse on social media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tU-D-m2JY8
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Sefton »

Is there any subject that Oceanbreeze isn't a reactionary prick on?
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

eldanielfire wrote:
deadduck wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Oceanbreeze wrote:I'm just really curious to hear Western mens view on this! According to popular opinions it's one of the major cause of male suicide and stress in the Western World.
Given how women are attacked in with masses brutal misogyny for daring expressing an opinion on social media, in a way that isn't repeated towards men for the same thing suggests we've a long way to go before women are treaten or seen as equals. When even the far left who are supposed to be the ones who are pushing the equality agenda gives BBC news editor Laura Kuenssberg the sort of vile sexist treatment her predecessor never recieved for the same accusation shows feminism hasn't gone close to far enough. Though that won't stop lots of privilaged men complaining on any concession or minor win women get.

What about when people lose their jobs and livelihoods because of a fairly tame joke that was overheard? (donglegate)

Or when an elderly man is abused so much due to his 'antifeminist' comments that it's thought to have contributed to his stroke? (Richard Dawkins)
I'm not saying some feminists aren't dickheads. But quoting a few fairly unique are rare cases in a world where there are more CEOs named John then there are women and just about every female MP on social media has to put up with misogyny and more intense and frequent cases of hate messages is clearly not balanced. For men's a few incoviences to the overall balance of privilage, for women it's frequently everyday hate and biogtry.

Here's a good example where some male sports presenters unknowingly read some fairly standard tweets their female coworkers recieve in a recent campaign to rais awareness. They pretty much of the sexist abuse on social media:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tU-D-m2JY8
ImageImage
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Could you make that picture a bit bigger Oceanbreeze?
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Sefton wrote:Is there any subject that Oceanbreeze isn't a reactionary prick on?
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Re: Has feminism gone too far in Western Society

Post by Oceanbreeze »

Chuckles1188 wrote:Could you make that picture a bit bigger Oceanbreeze?
:lol:
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