Having children or not?

[MungoMan]

I'll be paying for my girl's weddings.

There are many levels on which this is a sound investment.

Making it seem altruistic is the coup de gras.

As one with two daughters, let me just say:

[odave]

Dave, global population is dropping from about 2050, in a century time low birth rate etc could being real,problems for man kind.

And economically wealthier populations are greener so it's best to be a capitalist too.m

I usually agree with the grain of truth in your posts even if they're apposite to mine but that's inaccurate.

Capitalism is by definition about consumption. Look at China's economic and population growth and tell me that's been a positive for our planet. It's not my place to lecture anyone anywhere if they should have kids and how many but the more people eating and consuming means less habitat. We're living through one of the three greatest extinction events in history, purely down to our actions. It's very simple. No habitat = no animals = no people.

I'm not saying capitalism can't be a positive force in the future (see the slow life symposium) but the current model is not and never can be until the bottom line stops trumping environmental concerns

[jolindien]

If you are selfish or self indulgent, don't have any. It's a life changer.

If you have to ask the question, don't have any either!

You dont have to be either selfish or self-indulgent, just very self-aware. Being entirely responsible for another persons welfare/wellbeing scared the pants off me and so I decided to have none of it. Interestingly, I have recurring dreams of neglecting a child or an animal from time to time which cause me severe distress.

Did you live some trauma in your childhood like being left in distress as a child in some situation you could not handle emotionally and with no adult to help you ?

[aitch@wasps]

If you are selfish or self indulgent, don't have any. It's a life changer.

If you have to ask the question, don't have any either!

You dont have to be either selfish or self-indulgent, just very self-aware. Being entirely responsible for another persons welfare/wellbeing scared the pants off me and so I decided to have none of it. Interestingly, I have recurring dreams of neglecting a child or an animal from time to time which cause me severe distress.

Did you live some trauma in your childhood like being left in distress as a child in some situation you could not handle emotionally and with no adult to help you ?

Not that I recall, no...

[True Blue]

I think we all should be very carreful on this kind of sensitive subject to avoid hurting people one way or another.
I don't think there is any truth in life, all is about the personal life and journey of people living it. So many different ways.
So i guess i can only genuinly speak for myself and express what i feel, far from making any point whatsoever.

I personaly have a daughter which i love, but we also lost an unborn child as some may remember here (only at 3 months+, but in our mind he/she was already our second child). Our daughter lived the full events with us and knows her unborn brother/sister is gone "in the sky" as she says. She is ok with that and has kind thoughts for him/her sometimes as she would have liked to have a sister/brother.

The whole thing has broken something (many things) in me. I've been hit quite strongly with this loss and didn't want to go throught the process again.
I'm 40, my missus is 46 soon. She wanted to try again, i didn't want. We both regret that, and will forever. I didn't want to try even though i knew i was regretting it at the same time (it is not a regret coming back later).

Younger, I never wanted kids, i thought i would never have had kids actually. I am still unsure i wanted kids, or not.

I met my missus at 30 when she was 36... so all was already very late and and i didn't want kids.
We were both not settled at that time, and we still aren't at all today. No good, steady job in sight. Living the day as it comes.

Just after having met the missus at 30 i got a cancer some weeks into the relationship.
Spent a 1 year+ treating it.
Now i'm still here, but the insurances are treating me like a dead man walking and it is impossible to have a decent private insurance (to buy a home for instance, for work etc, everything...).

At 36 the missus was still in her studies during all this as she decided to go back to the uni when she was 30 (before we met) while doing small day-jobs.

Things became more complicated when she was 38 and studies not finished, plus me 32 only 2 years after cancer treatment, and the both of us only 2 years in a complicated relation (we are very very different, diametrically different).
She wanted a kid, so i said ok thinking nature would prevent us from having one at that age. It worked immediatly. And all went well that time.
So we finally met our daughter when i was almost 33 and the missus almost 39, when nothing was settled, missus still in the Uni.

Our daughter is a joy and my worst fear would be to lose her (i now think this is the worst thing on earth : losing a kid, having a kid ill etc).
I will always regret to have lost the second child and not to have a brother/sister for my daughter.
We are not settled at all and do not know what the future will be as i think we will never settle as the things are going.
I'm still dead meat when "they" see my medical past.
Life is a bitch but not always.

No truth in all this, some things seem right some day, but proved wrong the next one, and right again later.
I can't say what i should have done as i have no idea at all, i just can tell about what i feel : happy a lot with my daughter but fearing to lose her and to die leaving them, ever regretting the lost child and brother/sister to my daughter + a lot of pain deep in the heart while telling about it now and thinking of her/him. No idea what the future will be : personal, health, job, home, whatever... a big big "?"

I just a man with mostly doubts living the day-life... no-certitude-at-all.

phewww... when i read the preview of my post i really wonder how i would have made any correct "decision" out of that messy life.

Yeah i hear you bro. We have two kids, but the pregnancy between them had to be aborted at 4 months due to severe and non-survivable chromosome defects. Man the day we found that out was the worst day of my life...at least until the day my mum died. The wife was devastated. I never judge people about kids because such a thing is a very personal choice.

[True Blue]

Mrs jdogscoop and I are in our late 30s and don't have kids. Thus far, it's been a lifestyle choice. We enjoy our DINKS status, enjoying a few of the finer things as we age, and neither of us have felt the urge to change the way we live.

That said, I am aware the clock is ticking. This was reiterated by my GP at a check up a few years ago. "Time is of the essence," he said, when I confirmed our respective ages and suggested children could be an option.

I look at friends and family with kids and they seem very happy, although less flexible in their ability to go on trips and nights out at the drop of a hat. Fellow DINKsies, even older ones, are living great lives with few apparent regrets. That is obviously something that could manifest itself as the years pass.

We'll likely reassess things in a year or two, but at this stage I would predict sticking with the status quo as the most likely outcome.

Once you have kids, forget about freedom. That's the trade off. Even small things like randomly deciding to go out for dinner becomes a mission. Basically this is what happens when we want to do that

1 - Decide to go out for dinner
2 - 8 year old son wants Mcdonalds
3 - 4 year old daughter wants a toy
4 - They fight
5 - Tell them we are going out for Thai
6 - Daughter calls me a stinky bum and runs into her room
7 - Son sulks and says he won't go
8 - Threaten daughter that she will sleep outside if she doesn't come out
9 - Son decides he wants to go for a huge shit for 20 minutes, leaves door open so we cop the stench
10 - Daughter finds the wifes makeup and applies some to her face so she looks like the joker
11 - Exhausted, decide to order in Pizza
12 - Daughter takes a slice and stores it in her room for a nighttime snack and forgets about it, we smell it a week later.

[backrow]

Step five should have been a smack on their bottoms, stinky bum
Step six would have been eating Thai and none of the rest of their bullshit

[Akkerman]

interesting thread, even with all the trolling and shitfights

up until a few months ago I wouldn't even consider it, too complicated, messy and I probably wouldn't make a good father anyway; plus I love too much moving around the world 2-3 times a year with humanitarian work to change it

but ever since I met this kind and lovely austrian nurse, watching how great she is with all the kids at the hospital we work, really makes me wonder...

love, clearly an evolutionary trap, gotta snap out of it

[Flockwitt]

interesting thread, even with all the trolling and shitfights

up until a few months ago I wouldn't even consider it, too complicated, messy and I probably wouldn't make a good father anyway; plus I love too much moving around the world 2-3 times a year with humanitarian work to change it

but ever since I met this kind and lovely austrian nurse, watching how great she is with all the kids at the hospital we work, really makes me wonder...

love, clearly an evolutionary trap, gotta snap out of it

Life, sometimes you've just got to live it. And it has its rewards.

Nobody's a perfect father, and I'm sure you'll make a good a job of it as any Akkerman.

[ElementFreak]

For more controversy and spite.......daughters or sons? Which are superior?

Daughters certainly seem to be easier in the early years anyway.
They certainly seem to develop quicker and stuff like potty training is a bit of a doddle. Less destructive too.
They'll just probably become a nightmare when they become teenagers!

That's the point where you lock them in the cellar

That's gone so well in the past...

[HKCJ]

Nice post mate. I agree with your sentiment.

It's funny how parents can often speak positively of a life without children, but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent. That would be like a vegan praising meat. I guess parents have the advantage because we've all been childless adults, whilst they've not had the opportunity to be parents. So we can understand their lifestyle much more effectively than they can understand ours.

What utter fcuking claptrap. Its sad that you started a really interesting thread yet still resort to trolling.

[HKCJ]

First of all, if someone doesn't want kids, that is their choice entirely. Are they missing out? Sure, they are missing out on a lot of great things. But they are also avoiding a lot of worry and fear. They will have a lot of spare time compared to parents that they can devote to other things they love. Financially they will probably be much better off. There are pros and cons to both sides. So I sure as shit don't judge people that don't want kids, in fact I respect and admire that decision(and am sometimes jealous). I think that if things had worked out a bit differently for me, I could easily have been among those without kids and been happy. I do feel for people who want kids but are not able to have them, that would suck.

I went through much of my early life not even thinking about kids. For me it was hard to think about having kids when I didn't even have a girlfriend or partner or wife. The people I knew with kids, I wasn't jealous of and they didn't inspire me to want kids. I was happy doing my own thing and being single (and selfish).

But then I got older, friends started having kids. I met my future wife. My brother had a boy. My nephew, damn he was (is) cute. I love that little guy. He really made me realise that maybe having kids was something that would be really cool. Then I got married and my wife was very keen on having a baby. I went along for the ride, still not even sure how keen I was. The pregnancy wasn't difficult but there were still plenty of worrying times. I wanted a boy. We then found out we were going to have a girl. I sulked for a tiny bit, then realised I didn't care what gender it was, I just wanted a healthy baby. Then our daughter was born and it was love at first sight (well, maybe not very first sight, she was all wrinkly and slimy etc).

The first few weeks was tough. Life had completely changed. Sleep ins? Yeah...nah. Spare time? Nope. Doctors visits? Too many including a trip to A&E which was terrifying and one of the worst few hours of my life(all good in the end though).

Our daughter is almost 8 months old now and is the reason for my existence. I don't even know what I was doing before she was here. I love her more than I thought I could love anything. When I am away from her and see pictures of her, I sometimes get a shiver down my spine, just that feeling that you love something so damn much. I hate to be one of those plums but it is a feeling I don't think you can feel unless you have got a kid. I get home from a crap day at work and the reaction she gives me when she sees me is so heartwarming, it's impossible not to smile and be happy when you get that reaction.

It's still early days though. I know there will be some really tough times ahead...and I am dreading her teenage years! I also don't know if I want a second child...neither does my wife. We have no idea how people deal with multiple kids at once. But maybe things will change. I think 2 would be the absolute limit though. For now, I only have the time, money and love to focus on one child. But damn is it rewarding so far.

Top post

[Ali's Choice]

Nice post mate. I agree with your sentiment.

It's funny how parents can often speak positively of a life without children, but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent. That would be like a vegan praising meat. I guess parents have the advantage because we've all been childless adults, whilst they've not had the opportunity to be parents. So we can understand their lifestyle much more effectively than they can understand ours.

What utter fcuking claptrap. Its sad that you started a really interesting thread yet still resort to trolling.

What part of my post do you disagree with? This thread is littered with childless posters trolling the f**k out of family men.

[jambanja]

I was only going to have 2 but our second child turned into 2 and 3 which was great, challenging but great.

My kids are now 18 and the twins are 16 and I love them dearly, having said that, there will be a big party the day the last one heads off, probably to be followed by a big empty lonely feeling.

Point being they bring with them a whole range of emotions both good and bad and they do teach you a lot about yourself.

To those saying that childless couples are selfish and self centered, absolute rubbish! My best mate and his wife, who I shared a house with in London some 20 odd years ago decided for one reason and another not to have children, are two of the most generous people I've come across, plus they dote on my kids.
Sometimes it really is just a matter of choice.

[Ali's Choice]

I was only going to have 2 but our second child turned into 2 and 3 which was great, challenging but great.

My kids are now 18 and the twins are 16 and I love them dearly, having said that, there will be a big party the day the last one heads off, probably to be followed by a big empty lonely feeling.

Point being they bring with them a whole range of emotions both good and bad and they do teach you a lot about yourself.

To those saying that childless couples are selfish and self centered, absolute rubbish! My best mate and his wife, who I shared a house with in London some 20 odd years ago decided for one reason and another not to have children, are two of the most generous people I've come across, plus they dote on my kids.
Sometimes it really is just a matter of choice.

Of course no-one has actually said anything of the sort. Have they?

[HKCJ]

Nice post mate. I agree with your sentiment.

It's funny how parents can often speak positively of a life without children, but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent. That would be like a vegan praising meat. I guess parents have the advantage because we've all been childless adults, whilst they've not had the opportunity to be parents. So we can understand their lifestyle much more effectively than they can understand ours.

What utter fcuking claptrap. Its sad that you started a really interesting thread yet still resort to trolling.

What part of my post do you disagree with? This thread is littered with childless posters trolling the f**k out of family men.

I fundamentally disagree with this "but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent". I have 4 beautiful nieces and nephews and seen the utmost joy that they bring my sisters and my parents.. I am godfather to two wonderful little boys who I am privileged to spoil rotten. I have cradled my best friend as he sobbed in my arms about the impending open heart surgery on his 6 month little girl. I have flown to Sydney with my two best female friends for them to have their eggs frozen as they are about to pass their sell by date. I have seen the difficulties associated with my two best gay mates trying for surrogacy in the US because their rights are not recognised in Singapore. So dont you fcuking tell me that because I dont have children of my own I cannot see the joy and wonder that they bring about you fcuking moron. Or just carry on and troll this thread like the witless idiot you are. I suspect you'll choose the latter.

[Ghost-Of-Nepia]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

[HKCJ]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Between his time volunteering to sort out the Aborigine problem and personally coaching 117 junior rugby league teams in Queensland its a wonder he has time for this place at all quite frankly. Probably why his post count is so low.

[Ali's Choice]

Nice post mate. I agree with your sentiment.

It's funny how parents can often speak positively of a life without children, but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent. That would be like a vegan praising meat. I guess parents have the advantage because we've all been childless adults, whilst they've not had the opportunity to be parents. So we can understand their lifestyle much more effectively than they can understand ours.

What utter fcuking claptrap. Its sad that you started a really interesting thread yet still resort to trolling.

What part of my post do you disagree with? This thread is littered with childless posters trolling the f**k out of family men.

I fundamentally disagree with this "but you'll never hear a childless adult dare to comment on the positives associated with being a parent". I have 4 beautiful nieces and nephews and seen the utmost joy that they bring my sisters and my parents.. I am godfather to two wonderful little boys who I am privileged to spoil rotten. I have cradled my best friend as he sobbed in my arms about the impending open heart surgery on his 6 month little girl. I have flown to Sydney with my two best female friends for them to have their eggs frozen as they are about to pass their sell by date. I have seen the difficulties associated with my two best gay mates trying for surrogacy in the US because their rights are not recognised in Singapore. So dont you fcuking tell me that because I dont have children of my own I cannot see the joy and wonder that they bring about you fcuking moron. Or just carry on and troll this thread like the witless idiot you are. I suspect you'll choose the latter.

Is there really any need for such profanity and name calling?

Sorry mate but unless you have been a parent you can't truly understand the love attachment associated with parenthood. That's my opinion and I stand by it 100%. I totally respect the fact that you enjoy not being a father. That's cool, I get that. You've chosen lifestyle over having a family and more power to you. But don't condescend to every single parent on this thread by pretending you know what it's like to be a parent because you have a couple of God children.

[Ali's Choice]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Where have I ever said I am proud of being a parent? You're just making stuff up.

BTW trolling my skills as a parent is a pretty low form of trolling. No wonder yourself and Real Crusader were such great mates in real life, you're both pricks. Perhaps if you had a family or kids of your own you wouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of others?

[HKCJ]

"Daddy can we play cricket outside?"
"Not now son I've just got an excellent barb about AIDs statistics in South Africa and I need to find a good pic of a shanty town just for the LOLs'

[Ghost-Of-Nepia]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Where have I ever said I am proud of being a parent? You're just making stuff up.

BTW trolling my skills as a parent is a pretty low form of trolling. No wonder yourself and Real Crusader were such great mates in real life, you're both pricks. Perhaps if you had a family or kids of your own you wouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of others?

Aww bless. Trolling cunt doesn't like it up him.

[SilverGrin]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Where have I ever said I am proud of being a parent? You're just making stuff up.

BTW trolling my skills as a parent is a pretty low form of trolling. No wonder yourself and Real Crusader were such great mates in real life, you're both pricks. Perhaps if you had a family or kids of your own you wouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of others?

Layers upon layers of irony and self-awareness failure.

[theaxe]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Where have I ever said I am proud of being a parent? You're just making stuff up.

BTW trolling my skills as a parent is a pretty low form of trolling. No wonder yourself and Real Crusader were such great mates in real life, you're both pricks. Perhaps if you had a family or kids of your own you wouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of others?

Aww bless. Trolling cunt doesn't like it up him.

[Ali's Choice]

So now I have HKJC and Voltman swearing at me, calling me names and attacking my parenting skills because I stated the obvious; non-parents will never truly appreciate the bond parents have with their kids. Disappointing but to be expected from a couple of men-children who have never really grown up.

[Ali's Choice]

Odd that AC is so fiercely proud of being a parent yet seems to spend most of his evenings exchanging barbs with other adults on an internet forum rather than enjoying quality time with his children.

Where have I ever said I am proud of being a parent? You're just making stuff up.

BTW trolling my skills as a parent is a pretty low form of trolling. No wonder yourself and Real Crusader were such great mates in real life, you're both pricks. Perhaps if you had a family or kids of your own you wouldn't be so quick to judge the actions of others?

Layers upon layers of irony and self-awareness failure.

I'll take that as a compliment from a dickhead such as yourself. Boasted about doing any 'hard time' lately?

[theaxe]

So now I have HKJC and Voltman swearing at me, calling me names and attacking my parenting skills because I stated the obvious; non-parents will never truly appreciate the bond parents have with their kids. Disappointing but to be expected from a couple of men-children who have never really grown up.

Really? This coming from you, when you go from behaving like a 13 year old boy and a ten year old girl on this site?

[Ghost-Of-Nepia]

Disappointing but to be expected from a couple of men-children who have never really grown up.

Get fucked.








*hides his casino loyalty card*

[HKCJ]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

[Ali's Choice]

So now I have HKJC and Voltman swearing at me, calling me names and attacking my parenting skills because I stated the obvious; non-parents will never truly appreciate the bond parents have with their kids. Disappointing but to be expected from a couple of men-children who have never really grown up.

Really? This coming from you, when you go from behaving like a 13 year old boy and a ten year old girl on this site?

Keep in mind I was also voted the forum MVP two years running...

[Ali's Choice]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

[Kiwias]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**king tasteless

[HKCJ]

"My dads bigger than your dad"
"yeah but my dad is MVP on an internet forum two years running and has over 25,000 posts"

You must be well proud mate

[theaxe]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**k tasteless

Exactly. Poor form from AC, very poor form indeed.

[Ali's Choice]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**k tasteless

They started the personal trolling. When RC trolled your parenting skills I was your #1 supporter but you're seemingly quite happy for HKJC and Volty to troll me in such a fashion.

[Ali's Choice]

"My dads bigger than your dad"
"yeah but my dad is MVP on an internet forum two years running and has over 25,000 posts"

You must be well proud mate

Not as proud as if I were still a middle aged manchild, but I am proud nonetheless

[jambanja]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**k tasteless

They started the personal trolling. When RC trolled your parenting skills I was your #1 supporter but you're seemingly quite happy for HKJC and Volty to troll me in such a fashion.

...but Mum they started it

[theaxe]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**k tasteless

They started the personal trolling. When RC trolled your parenting skills I was your #1 supporter but you're seemingly quite happy for HKJC and Volty to troll me in such a fashion.

So you think it's ok to attack HKCJ for a drinking problem that he has admitted and is working on?

[Kiwias]

awww bless petal.. swearing and name calling? You poor wee thing. Go and have a wee bawl with yer bairns.. I'm sure they'll make everything right again and you can feel smugly superior to the childless volty and me.

Manchild

Got any middle-aged binge drinking session planned for tonight?

Now it is getting really f**k tasteless

They started the personal trolling. When RC trolled your parenting skills I was your #1 supporter but you're seemingly quite happy for HKJC and Volty to troll me in such a fashion.

That sounds exactly like something Trump would say.

The thread has deteriorated into ridiculous name-calling.

No-one is trolling anyone's parenting skills and I am buggered if I know how you jumped to the conclusion that I am (or would be) happy for that in any case

[HKCJ]

So you think it's ok to attack HKCJ for a drinking problem that he has admitted and is working on?

Its fine.. absolutely no offence was taken. Clearly I got under his skin a bit. Win for me