Re: Having children or not?
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:31 am
In retrospect, possibly my view point is slightly skewed by living in a country which has unemployment running at > 30%.
I think sorCerer has a point. I'm currently conducting an experiment to see if there is a difference in the planet's sustainability, if you have 2 or 3 kids. It is a double-blind experiment, so none of the 5 kids know which group they belong to.sorCrer wrote:Bit stupid to say how rewarding it is. Certainly take umbrage at people who have more than 2.
I king of get what you're saying. But without trying to sound like a chapter from Plato's Republic, chances are that your children will go to a good school, possibly uni, get good jobs and make a valuable contribution to society. A family that lives in utter poverty should probably assess their circumstances as to whether another mouth to feed is a good idea.sorCrer wrote:In retrospect, possibly my view point is slightly skewed by living in a country which has unemployment running at > 30%.
Sounds very familiar. Never ceased to be amazed by the number of people who have not tact or are unable to pick up on cues.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
Very sobering reading, jolindien.jolindien wrote:I think we all should be very carreful on this kind of sensitive subject to avoid hurting people one way or another.
I don't think there is any truth in life, all is about the personal life and journey of people living it. So many different ways.
So i guess i can only genuinly speak for myself and express what i feel, far from making any point whatsoever.
I personaly have a daughter which i love, but we also lost an unborn child as some may remember here (only at 3 months+, but in our mind he/she was already our second child). Our daughter lived the full events with us and knows her unborn brother/sister is gone "in the sky" as she says. She is ok with that and has kind thoughts for him/her sometimes as she would have liked to have a sister/brother.
The whole thing has broken something (many things) in me. I've been hit quite strongly with this loss and didn't want to go throught the process again.
I'm 40, my missus is 46 soon. She wanted to try again, i didn't want. We both regret that, and will forever. I didn't want to try even though i knew i was regretting it at the same time (it is not a regret coming back later).
Younger, I never wanted kids, i thought i would never have had kids actually. I am still unsure i wanted kids, or not.
I met my missus at 30 when she was 36... so all was already very late and and i didn't want kids.
We were both not settled at that time, and we still aren't at all today. No good, steady job in sight. Living the day as it comes.
Just after having met the missus at 30 i got a cancer some weeks into the relationship.
Spent a 1 year+ treating it.
Now i'm still here, but the insurances are treating me like a dead man walking and it is impossible to have a decent private insurance (to buy a home for instance, for work etc, everything...).
At 36 the missus was still in her studies during all this as she decided to go back to the uni when she was 30 (before we met) while doing small day-jobs.
Things became more complicated when she was 38 and studies not finished, plus me 32 only 2 years after cancer treatment, and the both of us only 2 years in a complicated relation (we are very very different, diametrically different).
She wanted a kid, so i said ok thinking nature would prevent us from having one at that age. It worked immediatly. And all went well that time.
So we finally met our daughter when i was almost 33 and the missus almost 39, when nothing was settled, missus still in the Uni.
Our daughter is a joy and my worst fear would be to lose her (i now think this is the worst thing on earth : losing a kid, having a kid ill etc).
I will always regret to have lost the second child and not to have a brother/sister for my daughter.
We are not settled at all and do not know what the future will be as i think we will never settle as the things are going.
I'm still dead meat when "they" see my medical past.
Life is a bitch but not always.
No truth in all this, some things seem right some day, but proved wrong the next one, and right again later.
I can't say what i should have done as i have no idea at all, i just can tell about what i feel : happy a lot with my daughter but fearing to lose her and to die leaving them, ever regretting the lost child and brother/sister to my daughter + a lot of pain deep in the heart while telling about it now and thinking of her/him. No idea what the future will be : personal, health, job, home, whatever... a big big "?"
I just a man with mostly doubts living the day-life... no-certitude-at-all.
phewww... when i read the preview of my post i really wonder how i would have made any correct "decision" out of that messy life.
My wife usually says "Can't stand the noisy, dirty, little buggers"aitch@wasps wrote:Have never wanted children. Anyone who asks why gets asked why they chose to wear that particular shirt/jumper/haircut. My life, my choice.
Margin_Walker wrote:Sounds very familiar. Never ceased to be amazed by the number of people who have not tact or are unable to pick up on cues.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
Got married just before my 31st birthday and were both very keen to start a family. Soon discovered that things in life aren't always as easy as you imagine they will be. There followed multiple rounds of failed rounds of IUI and one failed round of IVF over the next three and a half years including one miscarriage. The more time that passed the more we'd get asked, 'are you not getting broody at all?', 'do you not fancy having kids yourself one day?' etc. It gets harder to brush these off the longer it went on, especially for my wife.
Our first is thankfully due at the end of August now, but the whole thing has taught me a valuable lesson about not making assumptions/judgements about other people's situations.
For many people it is easy though, often an accident after a few too many. The idea that getting pregnant is actually no walk in the park for most people is alien to them and these are usually the ones with zero self awareness. Anybody who has gone through difficulties conceiving and come out on the other side would know not to ask the question.Margin_Walker wrote:Sounds very familiar. Never ceased to be amazed by the number of people who have not tact or are unable to pick up on cues.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
Got married just before my 31st birthday and were both very keen to start a family. Soon discovered that things in life aren't always as easy as you imagine they will be. There followed multiple rounds of failed rounds of IUI and one failed round of IVF over the next three and a half years including one miscarriage. The more time that passed the more we'd get asked, 'are you not getting broody at all?', 'do you not fancy having kids yourself one day?' etc. It gets harder to brush these off the longer it went on, especially for my wife.
Our first is thankfully due at the end of August now, but the whole thing has taught me a valuable lesson about not making assumptions/judgements about other people's situations.
There are two subjects that I find incredibly boring to listen to when I'm socialising with people. The first is children, and the second is real estate or housing.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
Probably can't find it but read some research on this an age back. Broadly it highlighted that couples without children tended to have better social lives and, in particular, (this was the main subject of the doc) were less likely to be lonely in retirement. The general gist being that outside Afro-Carribeans and Asians (whose family units are very different), people with kids are largely abandoned by them these days whereas those without kids maintain a supportive, social circle for life.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
Your wife is a wise woman. I'm 53, never had kids, never wanted kids, simply because I've never been able to tolerate other people's brats for any length of time. I'm always told "Ah, but it's different when they're yours". Perhaps, but why risk it?Kiwias wrote:My wife usually says "Can't stand the noisy, dirty, little buggers"aitch@wasps wrote:Have never wanted children. Anyone who asks why gets asked why they chose to wear that particular shirt/jumper/haircut. My life, my choice.
Used to respond similarly but couldn't be arsed with the 'Oh, it's different when they're yours!' shit, frankly.Kiwias wrote:My wife usually says "Can't stand the noisy, dirty, little buggers"aitch@wasps wrote:Have never wanted children. Anyone who asks why gets asked why they chose to wear that particular shirt/jumper/haircut. My life, my choice.
aitch@wasps wrote:Used to respond similarly but couldn't be arsed with the 'Oh, it's different when they're yours!' shit, frankly.Kiwias wrote:My wife usually says "Can't stand the noisy, dirty, little buggers"aitch@wasps wrote:Have never wanted children. Anyone who asks why gets asked why they chose to wear that particular shirt/jumper/haircut. My life, my choice.
The trouble with recommendations like these is they are skewed by a lack of impartiality. It's like your neighbour buying a new hi-fi: he's not going to tell you it's sh*t, a total waste of money and has ruined his life.sewa wrote:Having kids is great, we had them young so the two girls are 11 and 14 now. In a few years they will be off in college and then moving out at which point my wife is going to have a complete and utter freak attack, she has built her entire life around them. Even when they are away with relatives for a few nights she gets miserable.
Oh yeah, its a personal opinion. I've a mate who got taken by a Russian scammer, went for the whole kit and kaboodle, bought the house, bought her a car, had the kid and then a week later she kicked him out of his house. He probably regrets it but won't admit itTorquemada 1420 wrote:The trouble with recommendations like these is they are skewed by a lack of impartiality. It's like your neighbour buying a new hi-fi: he's not going to tell you it's sh*t, a total waste of money and has ruined his life.sewa wrote:Having kids is great, we had them young so the two girls are 11 and 14 now. In a few years they will be off in college and then moving out at which point my wife is going to have a complete and utter freak attack, she has built her entire life around them. Even when they are away with relatives for a few nights she gets miserable.
She gets that and just says, "Nah, mine would be even worse than yours"arbb9101 wrote:Your wife is a wise woman. I'm 53, never had kids, never wanted kids, simply because I've never been able to tolerate other people's brats for any length of time. I'm always told "Ah, but it's different when they're yours". Perhaps, but why risk it?Kiwias wrote:My wife usually says "Can't stand the noisy, dirty, little buggers"aitch@wasps wrote:Have never wanted children. Anyone who asks why gets asked why they chose to wear that particular shirt/jumper/haircut. My life, my choice.
Sounds like my mom to an extent. She had 5 of us, now we're all growing up or out of the house she got a dog and previously there was a cat. And I realise why my dad is now fat and bald.sewa wrote:Having kids is great, we had them young so the two girls are 11 and 14 now. In a few years they will be off in college and then moving out at which point my wife is going to have a complete and utter freak attack, she has built her entire life around them. Even when they are away with relatives for a few nights she gets miserable.
2 Months!!! Get the fudge out while you can.Turbogoat wrote:Never even thought about having kids myself. I didn't grow up in a typical, traditional household at all, so never really got into the whole 2.4 kids, white picket fence type of aspirations.
My girlfriend of all of two months brought up the possibility kids the other day... that's serious bunny boiler material and just cause to head for the hills. She's Irish/Venezuelan, which puts her in Shiite Catholic territory, so it's probably par for the course. So I haven't run for the hills just yet, and for the first time in my life even remotely considering the possibility of having kids.
Nah, can't see it happening.
But the childless posters on this forum have assured us that they wouldn't be any different whatsoever if they had kids. Apparently we're being arrogant and condescending for even suggesting that people become less self-centered once they have children to raise. In saying that, they're allowed to mock us for losing our freedom, financial security and apparently our sex lives.Airgead wrote:It is proven in behavioral science that parents mindsets are irrevocably changed after having children. It is based on the primal instinct for gene survival that parents think this way, releasing chemicals in the brain. It is no different to animals. Humans are engineered this way.
You are too young for the menopause, surely?Ali's Choice wrote:But the childless posters on this forum have assured us that they wouldn't be any different whatsoever if they had kids. Apparently we're being arrogant and condescending for even suggesting that people become less self-centered once they have children to raise. In saying that, they're allowed to mock us for losing our freedom, financial security and apparently our sex lives.Airgead wrote:It is proven in behavioral science that parents mindsets are irrevocably changed after having children. It is based on the primal instinct for gene survival that parents think this way, releasing chemicals in the brain. It is no different to animals. Humans are engineered this way.
The first question is just making small talk or finding some common ground. Their comments from then on are way out of line. I know enough people who are trying hard and having no luck to not ever go there. I also have friends who made the decision to never have kids. I've never asked them personally, not my place.danny_fitz wrote:My wife and I are both 40, we have no kids but it does get tiresome when we meet other couples for the first time who within 30 seconds ask if we have children. Upon hearing our response we often get the patronising lectures of the 'well you are leaving it a bit late' or 'you are missing out' variety. At this point I try and steer conversation away onto something else and the more self aware people pick up on this and run with it, but there are surprisingly number of people out there who have a stunning lack of self awareness who insist on regaling you on the details of their family set up and how cheeky their eldest son is and how the daughter has just passed some level 8 piano exam despite me not actually asking for any of these facts. I feel at some point I have to point out that in an ideal scenario we would already have a family but two rounds of failed IVF suggests that for us at least it is not that straight forward. There is then a fairly high chance that you will be asked 'so, I guess you will adopt then, plenty of kids out there need good homes' as if you are picking up a dog from a rescue shelter.
You're straddling both sides of this discussion quite nicely.Kiwias wrote:You are too young for the menopause, surely?Ali's Choice wrote:But the childless posters on this forum have assured us that they wouldn't be any different whatsoever if they had kids. Apparently we're being arrogant and condescending for even suggesting that people become less self-centered once they have children to raise. In saying that, they're allowed to mock us for losing our freedom, financial security and apparently our sex lives.Airgead wrote:It is proven in behavioral science that parents mindsets are irrevocably changed after having children. It is based on the primal instinct for gene survival that parents think this way, releasing chemicals in the brain. It is no different to animals. Humans are engineered this way.
Yes, because I have experienced both types of marriages. But your tone is getting hysterical.Ali's Choice wrote:You're straddling both sides of this discussion quite nicely.Kiwias wrote:You are too young for the menopause, surely?Ali's Choice wrote:But the childless posters on this forum have assured us that they wouldn't be any different whatsoever if they had kids. Apparently we're being arrogant and condescending for even suggesting that people become less self-centered once they have children to raise. In saying that, they're allowed to mock us for losing our freedom, financial security and apparently our sex lives.Airgead wrote:It is proven in behavioral science that parents mindsets are irrevocably changed after having children. It is based on the primal instinct for gene survival that parents think this way, releasing chemicals in the brain. It is no different to animals. Humans are engineered this way.
Well, that has killed the thread pretty effectively.Hong Kong wrote:i have two children and couldn't imagine my marriage without kids. I have very close friends who do not have kids and I couldn't imagine their marriage with them. I neither care nor comment on those who make their own choices.
sounds like just the girl to put manners on youTurbogoat wrote:Never even thought about having kids myself. I didn't grow up in a typical, traditional household at all, so never really got into the whole 2.4 kids, white picket fence type of aspirations.
My girlfriend of all of two months brought up the possibility kids the other day... that's serious bunny boiler material and just cause to head for the hills. She's Irish/Venezuelan, which puts her in Shiite Catholic territory, so it's probably par for the course. So I haven't run for the hills just yet, and for the first time in my life even remotely considering the possibility of having kids.
Nah, can't see it happening.
Are you actually for real ?sorCrer wrote:The planet as is simply cannot sustain it's existing population. Coupled with the fact that generally the less educated, poorer and less intelligent people tend to have larger families in modern times doesn't help.Ali's Choice wrote:WTF?sorCrer wrote:Bit stupid to say how rewarding it is. Certainly take umbrage at people who have more than 2.
No, what people have tried to patiently and gently point out to you is that just because your life has been made immeasurably better by having children, it doesn't automatically follow that my life would be made immeasurably better. This is down to me not being you, and my life not being your life.Ali's Choice wrote:But the childless posters on this forum have assured us that they wouldn't be any different whatsoever if they had kids. Apparently we're being arrogant and condescending for even suggesting that people become less self-centered once they have children to raise. In saying that, they're allowed to mock us for losing our freedom, financial security and apparently our sex lives.Airgead wrote:It is proven in behavioral science that parents mindsets are irrevocably changed after having children. It is based on the primal instinct for gene survival that parents think this way, releasing chemicals in the brain. It is no different to animals. Humans are engineered this way.