SA Politics thread

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Rinkals
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Rinkals »

Average Joe wrote:
OomPB wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:These are planned incursions. With a systematic intelligence gathering modus operandi displayed.

Yet our famous Police Crime Intelligence fail to get the most ordinary signs of such intelligence gathering. Why do they fail ?
Our Police hands are tied. Not only on farm murders. They must send them to Lagos. The traffic cops control traffic with an AK47 on the shoulder.
I don't think issuing automatic rifles to the bunch of uneducated, corrupt idiots we have here is a good idea oom.
And that's the problem.

Under Zuma, law enforcement became less of a force, more an opportunity to pack the top command with criminals whose primary qualification was loyalty to Zuma.
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Average Joe
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Average Joe »

Rinkals wrote:
Average Joe wrote:
OomPB wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:These are planned incursions. With a systematic intelligence gathering modus operandi displayed.

Yet our famous Police Crime Intelligence fail to get the most ordinary signs of such intelligence gathering. Why do they fail ?
Our Police hands are tied. Not only on farm murders. They must send them to Lagos. The traffic cops control traffic with an AK47 on the shoulder.
I don't think issuing automatic rifles to the bunch of uneducated, corrupt idiots we have here is a good idea oom.
And that's the problem.

Under Zuma, law enforcement became less of a force, more an opportunity to pack the top command with criminals whose primary qualification was loyalty to Zuma.
The rot began long before Zuma and will continue long after the old fart dies. The ANC is corrupt to it's core just like many other political groups licking their lips for the seats of power.
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Blake
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Blake »

Sorry Trogs, I lifted your post from the other thread because I didn't want to derail it. But I still wanted to discuss it, because I find South Africans that rallied against Zuma and back Trump fascinating. Please don't take that as patronizing, and from the tone of your response on the original thread where I posed the question you seemed a quite incensed at the mere suggestion; but I honestly am just curious about the phenomenon, because from my perspective Trump is just an orange Zuma that got born into wealth.

I'll answer all your straw-men here as, again, I didn't the discussion to detail in that other thread that already has a lot of activity and debates/arguments between other posters.
Zuma: raped a young girl who was HIV positive. Case got thrown out not because of his innocence, but political interference. This alone made him illegible to become prez.
Numerous corruption charges worth billions, some still ongoing. Non-disputable evidence for most cases (Nkandla is a physical place, partners in crime have confessed, etc). Racist by definition Kill the Boer, kill the farmer and Bring me my machine gun). Wrecked the economy. Wasn't democratically elected like Trump, due to our idiotic voting system.
There are a couple of things to unpack here; but can we settle on 5 themes and I'll show you the parallels in their actions and character.
1. Sexual Assualt: Both men have a history of philandering and sexual assault. You can dismiss the accusations against Trump all you want, but there are so many of them, I find it interesting when people do that. You claim that Zuma got off due to political interference, but yet Trump buying innocence through NDA's and settlements doesn't amount to the much of the same?
2. Corruption: I think once the Trump presidency ends to true scale of his graft will become very apparent. It has already been widely reported how much money his hotels and resorts are raking in with regular visits. Secret service budget was blown in its first year, and all that money goes directly into Trumps pockets via his hotels and golf courses. Somehow that is fine. I dunno, feels corrupt to me. A normal, ethical person (in my mind at least) be willing to make sacrifices for the 4 or 8 years they serve as president, live in the White House, relax at Camp David, and divest my business interests into a blind trust like the other 44 presidents did. But that's just me. Will be interesting to see how deep the Trump Foundation is going to dip into the US$500 billion Corona relief slush fund. Going to make Zuma's grafting seem like pocket change.
3. Racism: Swop out the word "Boer" for "Mexican" or "Immigrant" and in many cases I wouldn't be able to tell you who made the statement.
4. Economy: This is an interesting one. No doubt the USA economy has boomed, and SA's tanked under Zuma. My only comment there would be that I think the measures we use for economic analysis are out dated and misleading. GDP Growth, Stock Market gains and unemployment figures look at a very narrow set of measures; and a lot of that "growth" was bought on "credit" by punching a trillion dollar hole in their deficit. Meanwhile, farmers are losing their farms, wages are stagnant, healthcare and education costs are going up 10% per year, and many Americans are working 2-3 jobs just to get by...my brother in law is one of them; he has 3 jobs (and is also a Trump supporter by the way)
5. Election: Not sure what you mean by Zuma wasn't democratically elected. Both got elected based on the respective voting systems of their country. I can't say I like either system (Proportional representation in SA and Electoral Collage in the USA), but both got elected based on the rules. If anything, the case could be made that Zuma at least had a majority which Trump didn't.
Trump: some made-up charges of Russian collusion that even a 3 year long investigation by a highly partisan FBI couldn't find evidence of, yet still being used as "evidence" against him and others (even their own like Tubbard). Growing economy and decrease in unemployment (for which Obama suddenly is credited). Despite being called a racist and homophobe, no evidence and people who knows him has said that's one thing he's not (including people of colour).
1. Russia: This is a bit of a strawman which I didn't even punt as an argument, but let's go there anyway. Russia's goal is to weaken America and NATO. Can we just agree on that? They would have succeeded in the former regardless of who got elected in 2016. If Clinton had won, it would have been 4 years of Russian propaganda and Wikileaks and wall-to-wall Fox news coverage to rile up the American right. But at least she shouldn't have budged on NATO. Whether Trump or his campaign were directly involved in the Russian interference, I don't know, and honestly don't care about. It was a massive boon for Putin that Trump won. It has America in turmoil AND it has significantly weakened the West's position again Russia. If you have some time, read Gary Kasparov's book "Winter is Coming".
2. Economy again: I think I made my point about the economy higher up. Regarding the Obama jab, I think the analysts there are just pointing out that Trump inherited a trend and maintained it. Now that he will be starting from a low base after the Corona crisis, it will be interesting to see if he can jump-start the economy like Obama did when he inherited the 2008 Crisis from Bush. Trump might yet get an opportunity to prove his detractors wrong, but if his business history is anything to go on, he is more a "burn it down and claim the insurance money" kind of guy (my opinion).
3. Racism again: So his comments about Mexicans being rapists, or the death penalty for the Central Park 5 (who were innocent in the end) or not wanting black tenants in Trump tower...those are all fake news? Hoaxes? Don't get me wrong, the guy is 70+, I'm not expecting him to be "woke" he is probably as racist as my grandfather (who was pretty racist).
Now the opposite: the real despicables:
Hitler: believed in Socialism (a favourite of the Lefties). And I sure hope you've never owned a Volkswagen, and protest against their presence regularly.
Not sure what this has to do with the Trump-Zuma comparison, but I'll bite just because you are a decent poster most of the time.
I think people that like to invoke the Nazis in "Socialism" discussions, tend to focus a helluva lot on the "Socialist" part of they name, and ignore the "Nationalist" part.
The Nazi's didn't kill millions and conquer Europe because "Socialism"...they did it because they believed they were the master race, that they deserved better and that they were screwed out of their birthright with territory being taken away from them.

That sounds way more like Zuma/Malema/Trump supporter thinking to me, than hairly, fairy, liberal free healthcare, education and social safety net to me.
It's an oversimplification sure, but I'm tired of typing and I feel I've made the point.
Apartheid government: also Socialist, in fact went as far as nationalising most key industries/companies. Once again the very same system Bernie, Tulsi and others support.
Nationalists again.

I think people are getting hung up with labels. You made a good point on the original thread where I think you expressed similar sentiment. Liberal, Conservative, Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, Nationalist...all of these labels mean different things to different people and nobody seems to be able to agree on the same definition. Until we don't think these fissures will ever heal.

For what it's worth, my ideal world would look as follows:
A social democracy with a mixed market. Election of local, provincial and national representatives based on a ranked choice voting system. Electioneering only allowed for 3 months prior to the election. No corporate donations allowed for campaigns, limits to individual donations.

Ideally I'd prefer Healthcare and Education to be managed by the state, but this is very problematic here I will concede. You need very strong and credible institutions, leadership, transparency and electorate engagement to do this effectively. But these 2 things should be publicly accessible and should be seen as taxpayer investments in the populace IMO.

Sheesh, that was a long post and I didn't even get to show you how much I think Zuma and Trump are alike :(
From their sons, to their many wives, to their gifting and bankruptcies, to populism and cultism and "failing upward", fleecing their respective treasuries, and manipulation of the media.
It's uncanny, but then I understand that some have invested so much into Trump it's hard to admit that the emperor isn't wearing clothes.
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Wilson's Toffee
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

Wow. You really got it off your back


Now I have reading matter for the whole weekend.

:thumbup:
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by troglodiet »

Blake, I'm not going to type out a long post, at least for now, but just a couple of things...

And we agree on a surprisingly number of issues.

But Zuma's sexual adventures have been proven, Trump's not. Whether Trump paid himself out of it I don't know, but that's part of TDS, some people will immediately believe the worst in Trump (which is almost a definition of TDS) and others don't. The problem is, the more people keep on harping Orange man bad, the more tedious it becomes. The guy can literally not do anything right in the eyes of many.

About Trump having been elected and Zuma not. It's our idiotic voting system, where elites in the ruling party gets to elect their leader who in turn becomes the prez. In the USA they vote directly for their president. If they did it here, the person I'd vote for as prez wil probably not be from the party I vote for.

Racism. Kill the Boer etc. is racist I think we all agree. Trump talks about ILLEGAL immigration, from Mexico and other countries. Countries who have a lot of illegal immigrants going to the USA, and a lot of criminal/ terrorist types. Nothing racist about that. If you're Mexican and a decent sort wanting to get into the USA, then go the legal route. Interesting those who are most against illegals from down South, are those legal immigrants from those countries.

I used the Nazis and National party just to show that it's almost impossible to compare any 2 people/ political thoughts. You can find good and bad in most cases.

And what I really dislike (don't think you used it, but a number of others have) telling new I'm parroting "right wing propaganda". Firstly, i don't like the way "right wing" is used as an insult, as if only left wing ideologies are allowed. Secondly, I'm not reliant on the media to tell me what I should think. I hate reading the news and I hate MSM. I'm not caught up in any echo chamber, in fact I think those who level this accusation are the ones who believe CNN and MSNBC. The only dedicated political channel I follow is The Hill, because they are so impartial. Then also Dave Rubin and Joe Rogan, who aren't just about politics. And a bit if Sargon more because I like his sense of humour. Nothing far right in any of those. Oh and occasionally Jimmy Dore, almost forgot about him. Far lefty.
Last edited by troglodiet on Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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troglodiet
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by troglodiet »

And that was surprisingly much longer than anticipated :lol:


PS. I actually dislike politicians and politics as a rule, and not keen on political discussions because it just creates unnecessary friction. Same with religion.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by troglodiet »

The Nazi's didn't kill millions and conquer Europe because "Socialism"...they did it because they believed they were the master race
This is something I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad we're can find common ground. And I was trying to show how the opposite is also true by talking about Volkswagen, which was started because Hitler demanded it.

Just like you say, the horrible things the Nazis did was not due to their political leaning. Same with good things (if you consider Volkswagen good cars which I don't).

I've been having the same argument with some in here regarding apartheid. It's okay to admit there were good things during the time of apartheid, because it wasn't because of apartheid, it just happened to have occurred during those years. And once again, we need to remove the Nationalist Socialist ideologies from the atrocities that happened during that time. Nazism and the apartheid regime doesn't make Nationalism or Socialism (or a combination) bad. The bad part was due to the totalitarian regimes. The pros and cons of the different systems should be removed from the discussion about the Nazis.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

troglodiet wrote:
The Nazi's didn't kill millions and conquer Europe because "Socialism"...they did it because they believed they were the master race
This is something I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad we're can find common ground. And I was trying to show how the opposite is also true by talking about Volkswagen, which was started because Hitler demanded it.

Just like you say, the horrible things the Nazis did was not due to their political leaning. Same with good things (if you consider Volkswagen good cars which I don't).

I've been having the same argument with some in here regarding apartheid. It's okay to admit there were good things during the time of apartheid, because it wasn't because of apartheid, it just happened to have occurred during those years. And once again, we need to remove the Nationalist Socialist ideologies from the atrocities that happened during that time. Nazism and the apartheid regime doesn't make Nationalism or Socialism (or a combination) bad. The bad part was due to the totalitarian regimes. The pros and cons of the different systems should be removed from the discussion about the Nazis.
Y

Jissus. Noe the commies are gonna gun for you.
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Chilli
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Chilli »

So I believe that the SA Rugby internal investigation of the Etzebeth alleged racial slur thingy has been concluded and EE has been exonerated.

If anyone is a subscriber please post and the article regarding the Boks and BLM.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by OomStruisbaai »

Chilli wrote:So I believe that the SA Rugby internal investigation of the Etzebeth alleged racial slur thingy has been concluded and EE has been exonerated.

If anyone is a subscriber please post and the article regarding the Boks and BLM.
Not good news for Sards. He made Etsebeth like others a racist.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Frequent Flyer »

Question for saffers: in hindsight, do you now feel like Thabo Mbheki was actually a pretty good president?
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Chilli
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Chilli »

Frequent Flyer wrote:Question for saffers: in hindsight, do you now feel like Thabo Mbheki was actually a pretty good president?
Why in hindsight?

Mbeki was a very good President.
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Rinkals
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Rinkals »

Chilli wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Question for saffers: in hindsight, do you now feel like Thabo Mbheki was actually a pretty good president?
Why in hindsight?

Mbeki was a very good President.
He was better than Zuma, but that's an extremely low bar.

He was predisposed toward conspiracy theories, particularly with regard to HIV and AIDS and supported Manto Tshabalala Msmang in her quackery. An estimated 300,000 people died unnecessarily.

He allowed Bob Mugabe free latitude to torture and kill his people and he wasn't strong enough to stand up to him.

He rubbished claims that Eskom was in trouble and, rather than invest in power stations and promote renewable energy sources, he allowed the power network to be sold off and fall into disrepair.

Those are 3 off the top of my head.

He was also paranoid and suspected plots against him and had a fondness for Jack Daniels.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Killface »

troglodiet wrote:Blake, I'm not going to type out a long post, at least for now, but just a couple of things...

And we agree on a surprisingly number of issues.

But Zuma's sexual adventures have been proven, Trump's not. Whether Trump paid himself out of it I don't know, but that's part of TDS, some people will immediately believe the worst in Trump (which is almost a definition of TDS) and others don't. The problem is, the more people keep on harping Orange man bad, the more tedious it becomes. The guy can literally not do anything right in the eyes of many.

About Trump having been elected and Zuma not. It's our idiotic voting system, where elites in the ruling party gets to elect their leader who in turn becomes the prez. In the USA they vote directly for their president. If they did it here, the person I'd vote for as prez wil probably not be from the party I vote for.

Racism. Kill the Boer etc. is racist I think we all agree. Trump talks about ILLEGAL immigration, from Mexico and other countries. Countries who have a lot of illegal immigrants going to the USA, and a lot of criminal/ terrorist types. Nothing racist about that. If you're Mexican and a decent sort wanting to get into the USA, then go the legal route. Interesting those who are most against illegals from down South, are those legal immigrants from those countries.

I used the Nazis and National party just to show that it's almost impossible to compare any 2 people/ political thoughts. You can find good and bad in most cases.

And what I really dislike (don't think you used it, but a number of others have) telling new I'm parroting "right wing propaganda". Firstly, i don't like the way "right wing" is used as an insult, as if only left wing ideologies are allowed. Secondly, I'm not reliant on the media to tell me what I should think. I hate reading the news and I hate MSM. I'm not caught up in any echo chamber, in fact I think those who level this accusation are the ones who believe CNN and MSNBC. The only dedicated political channel I follow is The Hill, because they are so impartial. Then also Dave Rubin and Joe Rogan, who aren't just about politics. And a bit if Sargon more because I like his sense of humour. Nothing far right in any of those. Oh and occasionally Jimmy Dore, almost forgot about him. Far lefty.

Dore is a doos. I don’t care what you think of people and their views (and Alex Jones deserves a lot of criticism), you don’t spit on them. Childish loser clinging to a failed ideology. Reminds me of Rinkals.

Watch some Tim Pool. He is a fence sitter of note but I find him to be sincere and a reasonable lefty (like Sargon was years ago before he realized the left had left him behind).

I discovered Styxhexenhammer around the time of the 2016 election and he’d be right up your alley. Interesting guy and not someone I agree with on much but some really accurate analysis particularly calling the 2016 election and 2018 midterms pretty much exactly right.

Interesting how accepting and tolerant the supposed “far-right” can be, isn’t it? Meanwhile the left is pushing censorship, segregation and “peaceful” riots.
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Killface
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Killface »

Chilli wrote:
Frequent Flyer wrote:Question for saffers: in hindsight, do you now feel like Thabo Mbheki was actually a pretty good president?
Why in hindsight?

Mbeki was a very good President.
Except, not at all. Enabler and failure that he was. Very good on HIV/AIDS was he?
Have some standards and dignity ffs.

Saying Mbeki (and even Mandela, *shock horror*) were very good is like saying 30% is a very good matric score. “Passable” in ANC-governed South Africa.
The voters need to cop the fudge on but instead we get this romanticized revisionism of abject failure.
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by troglodiet »

Killface wrote:
troglodiet wrote:Blake, I'm not going to type out a long post, at least for now, but just a couple of things...

And we agree on a surprisingly number of issues.

But Zuma's sexual adventures have been proven, Trump's not. Whether Trump paid himself out of it I don't know, but that's part of TDS, some people will immediately believe the worst in Trump (which is almost a definition of TDS) and others don't. The problem is, the more people keep on harping Orange man bad, the more tedious it becomes. The guy can literally not do anything right in the eyes of many.

About Trump having been elected and Zuma not. It's our idiotic voting system, where elites in the ruling party gets to elect their leader who in turn becomes the prez. In the USA they vote directly for their president. If they did it here, the person I'd vote for as prez wil probably not be from the party I vote for.

Racism. Kill the Boer etc. is racist I think we all agree. Trump talks about ILLEGAL immigration, from Mexico and other countries. Countries who have a lot of illegal immigrants going to the USA, and a lot of criminal/ terrorist types. Nothing racist about that. If you're Mexican and a decent sort wanting to get into the USA, then go the legal route. Interesting those who are most against illegals from down South, are those legal immigrants from those countries.

I used the Nazis and National party just to show that it's almost impossible to compare any 2 people/ political thoughts. You can find good and bad in most cases.

And what I really dislike (don't think you used it, but a number of others have) telling new I'm parroting "right wing propaganda". Firstly, i don't like the way "right wing" is used as an insult, as if only left wing ideologies are allowed. Secondly, I'm not reliant on the media to tell me what I should think. I hate reading the news and I hate MSM. I'm not caught up in any echo chamber, in fact I think those who level this accusation are the ones who believe CNN and MSNBC. The only dedicated political channel I follow is The Hill, because they are so impartial. Then also Dave Rubin and Joe Rogan, who aren't just about politics. And a bit if Sargon more because I like his sense of humour. Nothing far right in any of those. Oh and occasionally Jimmy Dore, almost forgot about him. Far lefty.

Dore is a doos. I don’t care what you think of people and their views (and Alex Jones deserves a lot of criticism), you don’t spit on them. Childish loser clinging to a failed ideology. Reminds me of Rinkals.

Watch some Tim Pool. He is a fence sitter of note but I find him to be sincere and a reasonable lefty (like Sargon was years ago before he realized the left had left him behind).

I discovered Styxhexenhammer around the time of the 2016 election and he’d be right up your alley. Interesting guy and not someone I agree with on much but some really accurate analysis particularly calling the 2016 election and 2018 midterms pretty much exactly right.

Interesting how accepting and tolerant the supposed “far-right” can be, isn’t it? Meanwhile the left is pushing censorship, segregation and “peaceful” riots.
Thing about Dore is, he has some interesting material. And he's actually a nice source for knowing what's happening with the Dems. He hardly talks about "the right", and can at least criticize Trump without shouting Russia!

I do watch Tim Pool. He tends to be a bit long-winded sometimes, and often just reads articles instead of discussing them. Although his new channel (with Adam and cute chick) is much better. Interestingly, he finally came out of the political closet and said he's voting Trump in Nov. He's quite a far Lefty (actually, Liberal, not Lefty) so for him to announce he's ditching the Dems is a perfect example of how the Left left the left.

Styxenhammer is great, but I actually started following him long before he became involved in politics. I started watching him due to his Occult knowledge. Similar in a way to how I was following Jordan Peterson for his Maps of Meaning, Biblical Series and lectures (especially his views on Jung); very interesting if you're a Freemason (Jungian philosophy is very very close to Freemasonry) long before he was pulled into the political debate. It was rather a sad chain of events that pushed Peterson into and front-centre wrt politics.


Wrt the censorship: growing up in the 80s in SA, it was the conservatives who used to tell us what to think and what we may do. In the beginning of the 90's I was a student at Vaal Triangle Technicon. Basic Instinct was in the cinema, went to watch it with my flatmates and a couple of females. In front of us (not part of our group) was a girl, 20 years old, a month or two before her 21st birthday. The film came out with a 2-21 age restriction. They simply wouldn't allow her in, no matter what. The joke is, she was already MARRIED, but according to the idiotic conservatives/Nats, she was apparently too young to see stuff she and her husband did every day (newly weds and she was a stunner).
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Flyin Ryan »

Before Zuma replaced Mbeki at the ANC Conference, I listened to a town hall-style podcast from the Mail & Guardian there talking about Mbeki's presidency. I'm thinking way back here but it seemed at the time the criticism of Mbeki was how he framed all political issues around party loyalty, or "us versus them", and was always fearful of intra-party discord. It's a very top down leadership model to follow but Mbeki was not really an authoritarian, so it was then hijacked by Zuma to serve his own needs.

Do Saffers think if Mbeki was either better in terms of having open discussions on political issues, or to do a 180 here was more strong-minded to quash internal dissent he'd've been able to defeat Zuma at the ANC Conference?
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Jensrsa »

Interesting article. Bit long so I didn't post it
There is palpable anger in the land about corruption. The anger is largely focused on what the ANC is doing and failing to do about the scourge. If we separate party and state, it is useful to look at the scoreboard of what the state has achieved so far in fighting corruption.
Ramaphosa has put the state on a new trajectory - check his scorecard
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by mdaclarke »

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/so ... 04538.html

Interesting article in the Independent, stating that South Africa is doing better than the UK when it comes to Coronavirus
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Jensrsa
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by Jensrsa »

How can a big company's marketing department miss the bus by such a large margin? As well as everyone who had to sign off on it?

Clicks' racist advert - elements of it anyway

Image Image
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by mdaclarke »

Jensrsa wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 pm How can a big company's marketing department miss the bus by such a large margin? As well as everyone who had to sign off on it?

Clicks' racist advert - elements of it anyway

Image Image
The mistake they made is having a white lady be the model for "normal hair!"

The EFF are deliberately misinterpreting the meaning of "Fine and Flat" it is not meant to be a compliment
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Re: SA Politics thread

Post by TheSmurf »

Yeah but in this country at this time, white person's straight hair is the 'normal' hair :shock: ...
FFS now some old tannie pulled a gun on some EFF protesters... Jirre fok :lol:
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