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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

eldanielfire wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:If Lebron played under the old rules he'd kill Jordan and Rodman. Lebron is a beast physical wise.
Rodman had no problem with the likes of Karl Malone who was a tank. Can't see LeBron mentally fronting up to being beaten up every other game and teams would as his free throws aren't great. Likewise Rodman was called 'The worm' for a reason, he wasn't dishing out the physical beastings, he could utterly absorb anything you had to throw at him and still defend you or grab the rebound.
You think Rodman had no problem with Malone? :lol:

Come on... watch the 1998 Finals again. Sheezus.
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Marshall Banana wrote:Vegas had Bron's team as 'dogs in 7 out of his 9 Finals appearances.

Analytics say Bron had it much tougher as well:

Here
Did LeBron have it easier prior to reaching the Finals? Yes.

But once there... it's an entirely different story.

Finals opponents

The low-hanging fruit is that Jordan never dealt with anyone quite like the Golden State Warriors, a historic juggernaut that just so happened to come along right smack in the middle of LeBron's stranglehold on the East.

Imagine if Jordan's prime ran parallel to Larry Bird's Celtics or Magic Johnson's Lakers? What if instead of catching the tail end of both, he instead ran into them year after year?

There's this tendency to think "Warriors" first and foremost when thinking about LeBron's trips to the Finals and while those teams certainy reign surpreme, they also in a way underscore the relative strength of his other Finals opponents. Back in 2017 I wrote about how LeBron's worst Finals opponent - the 2006-07 San Antonio Spurs - ranked in the 73rd percentile of Finals teams ever. That was before he took on the Warriors for the fourth straight year.

All nine of LeBron's Finals opponents rank among the top 36 teams ever to reach the NBA Finals, an astounding statement regarding his quality of opposition.

Even more illuminating is when you factor in how those compare to the teams Michael Jordan squared off against when amassing that unassailable 6-0 Finals record.

That Spurs team which grades out as the worst of the nine that James played against ranks higher than four of the six teams the Bulls beat, including all three from the first three-peat.
The biggest stain on Bron's career is against the Mavs in 2011. He was good in Game 1, but from there was very poor.

That Mavs playoff run was something else, tho. Swept the Lakers on the way. That's the B2B defending champ Lakers, paying $1.27 to win the series. My favourite title winning team? Probably.
I think any analysis that rates the peak Tim Duncan Spurs as the worst team LeBron has faced in the finals is hugely flawed.
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Marshall Banana wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:If Lebron played under the old rules he'd kill Jordan and Rodman. Lebron is a beast physical wise.
Rodman had no problem with the likes of Karl Malone who was a tank. Can't see LeBron mentally fronting up to being beaten up every other game and teams would as his free throws aren't great. Likewise Rodman was called 'The worm' for a reason, he wasn't dishing out the physical beastings, he could utterly absorb anything you had to throw at him and still defend you or grab the rebound.
You think Rodman had no problem with Malone? :lol:

Come on... watch the 1998 Finals again. Sheezus.
The series where the Bulls keep the Jazz to 50 odd points one game?

That's exactly my point. Rodman still walked out of that series with 50 rebounds and more than a steal every game while Wrestling with Hulk Hogan. As I said Rodman may appear to get dominated but his game was all based on absorbing it. Rodman's production still remains high regardless.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Bowens »

I don’t know if there were ever three defenders as good as MJ, Pippen and Rodman on the same team. All three are arguably top 10-15 defensive players in league history. That’s the biggest issue GSW or anyone else would face against the Bulls from that era.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Marshall Banana wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:If Lebron played under the old rules he'd kill Jordan and Rodman. Lebron is a beast physical wise.
Rodman had no problem with the likes of Karl Malone who was a tank. Can't see LeBron mentally fronting up to being beaten up every other game and teams would as his free throws aren't great. Likewise Rodman was called 'The worm' for a reason, he wasn't dishing out the physical beastings, he could utterly absorb anything you had to throw at him and still defend you or grab the rebound.
You think Rodman had no problem with Malone? :lol:

Come on... watch the 1998 Finals again. Sheezus.
Malone was averaging under 20 points a game until he had a big game 5.

No problem is hyperbole, but the Bulls limited him severely which was a big reason they were 3-1 up.
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

It's hyperbole because over the course of Malone's career he dominated Rodman.
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

Dennis Rodman vs Draymond Green
Scottie Pippen vs Kevin Durant
Tony Kukoc vs Andre Iguodala
Michael Jordan vs Klay Thompson
Ron Harper vs Stephen Curry

That's how I see it.

Pistons' Rodman would take out Green, but not Bulls' Rodman. Green was the best defender in the game in 2017, and much better offensively.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Marshall Banana wrote:It's hyperbole because over the course of Malone's career he dominated Rodman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSyHdeG5wY#t=3m28s

Looking at it further though, seeing as they only played each other in the playoffs 3 times (97, 98 and 94 when Rodman was with the Spurs), I would find it hard to say Malone dominated Rodman when it counted. He had a good series vs the Spurs, but in both those Finals series his scoring average was down as compared with the rest of the post season. That's not entirely down to Rodman of course.
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Marshall Banana wrote:It's hyperbole because over the course of Malone's career he dominated Rodman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSyHdeG5wY#t=3m28s
Rodman wins over Malone again! :nod:
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Marshall Banana wrote:It's hyperbole because over the course of Malone's career he dominated Rodman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYSyHdeG5wY#t=3m28s
:lol:
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Marshall Banana wrote:Dennis Rodman vs Draymond Green
Scottie Pippen vs Kevin Durant
Tony Kukoc vs Andre Iguodala
Michael Jordan vs Klay Thompson
Ron Harper vs Stephen Curry

That's how I see it.

Pistons' Rodman would take out Green, but not Bulls' Rodman. Green was the best defender in the game in 2017, and much better offensively.
Durrant is a better player than Pippen, but Pippen could still lock him down and limit him.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by fonzeee »

eldanielfire wrote:
Marshall Banana wrote:Dennis Rodman vs Draymond Green
Scottie Pippen vs Kevin Durant
Tony Kukoc vs Andre Iguodala
Michael Jordan vs Klay Thompson
Ron Harper vs Stephen Curry

That's how I see it.

Pistons' Rodman would take out Green, but not Bulls' Rodman. Green was the best defender in the game in 2017, and much better offensively.
Durrant is a better player than Pippen, but Pippen could still lock him down and limit him.
If we can call even I see no reason to not at least put Rodman equal with Green. They're essentially equal on defense and he would completely dominate the boards. Green might have been better offensively but they're both last options anyway so it's basically inconsequential. Draymond's assist totals are inflated when you consider who he's passing to.

There's so much more dog in that Bulls team it's not even funny. Men vs. boys. Klay's got some hair on his chest but still. Steph and KD would be hiding behind the scorer's table.

And of course the Bulls still have far and away the best player on the court.
Last edited by fonzeee on Wed May 20, 2020 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

eldanielfire wrote:
Marshall Banana wrote:Dennis Rodman vs Draymond Green
Scottie Pippen vs Kevin Durant
Tony Kukoc vs Andre Iguodala
Michael Jordan vs Klay Thompson
Ron Harper vs Stephen Curry

That's how I see it.

Pistons' Rodman would take out Green, but not Bulls' Rodman. Green was the best defender in the game in 2017, and much better offensively.
Durrant is a better player than Pippen, but Pippen could still lock him down and limit him.
Of course, but KD was second team all defence in 2017. He can slow down Pippen, who isn't close to the scorer KD is.

And that's what swings it for me - I just don't think the Bulls have enough points in them. They would be forced to play Kerr a ton, which would hurt them defensively as well.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Bowens »

Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

Also have to consider the Warriors real strength. They play as a team plus their bench us strong with lots of scoring.
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

Interesting hypothetical from @Westgate_LV: 2016-17 @warriors would be 6.5-point favorites against MJ-led 1995-96 Bulls on a neutral court.

Sounds about right.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by fonzeee »

Marshall Banana wrote:Interesting hypothetical from @Westgate_LV: 2016-17 @warriors would be 6.5-point favorites against MJ-led 1995-96 Bulls on a neutral court.

Sounds about right.
A result no doubt reached through analytics.

Charles Barkley is rolling over in his grave.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

Bowens wrote:Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
Malone is not as good as LeBron though.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

CrazyIslander wrote:Also have to consider the Warriors real strength. They play as a team plus their bench us strong with lots of scoring.
Same for the Bulls, you know they pioneered the Triangle with Jordan giving up ball and stats t make it work. As for bench scoring Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc (a sometimes starter), Scott Burell and Randy Brown, hardly a weak bench.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

CrazyIslander wrote:
Bowens wrote:Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
Malone is not as good as LeBron though.
What's LeBron got to do with it? I thought the discussion was whether the Bulls could beat the Warriors (FWIW, I agree with MB - the Durant Warriors just have too much scoring).

If you're putting the Bulls up against the finals teams James played in, I'd have any Bulls team as favourites against them. Maybe one of those Heat teams gets a win.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by jamesfreeman »

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Bowens wrote:Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
Malone is not as good as LeBron though.
What's LeBron got to do with it? I thought the discussion was whether the Bulls could beat the Warriors (FWIW, I agree with MB - the Durant Warriors just have too much scoring).

If you're putting the Bulls up against the finals teams James played in, I'd have any Bulls team as favourites against them. Maybe one of those Heat teams gets a win.
I'd still pick the Bulls over the Warriors but would be close as for the 2016 Warriors definitely Bulls and not as close as Cavs either...
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Slim 293 »

I'd say MJ breaks Durant's will by game 2, and he spends the rest of the series focusing on which franchise he's going to next... in the meantime getting beaten up by an ageing Rodman, fresh off a 24 hr Vegas binge. :nod:
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by fonzeee »

Slim 293 wrote:I'd say MJ breaks Durant's will by game 2, and he spends the rest of the series focusing on which franchise he's going to next... in the meantime getting beaten up by an ageing Rodman, fresh off a 24 hr Vegas binge. :nod:
Well that's easy...

Image
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Slim 293
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Slim 293 »

:thumbup: :lol:

But does KD then come off the bench? I'm not sure how he'd feel being no 3 to MJ and Pippen...
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Bowens »

fonzeee wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:I'd say MJ breaks Durant's will by game 2, and he spends the rest of the series focusing on which franchise he's going to next... in the meantime getting beaten up by an ageing Rodman, fresh off a 24 hr Vegas binge. :nod:
Well that's easy...

Image
:lol:
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

Bowens wrote:Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have mentioned the 1998 Finals to show Malone's dominance. I guess I had Games 5 and 6 on the brain...

But he did historically have the better of Rodman. Wish I could find the specifics on it, but it's lost in a sea of "Last Dance", "wrestling", and "rapist", articles.

Wilbon does mention it, after Game 4:

Here.
When the Bulls and Utah began this series, Malone owned Rodman. It's been like that for 10 years. Now, Malone looks like a scrub while Rodman makes all the plays Malone used to make.
And H2H on Basketball reference.

H2H doesn't tell the whole picture of course - but the numbers give you some idea of Malone's success against Rodman and Rodman teams.

Anyway, I never liked Malone, nor the Jazz. So fuck 'em, and I hope Mitchell leaves them.
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Marshall Banana
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Marshall Banana »

fonzeee wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:I'd say MJ breaks Durant's will by game 2, and he spends the rest of the series focusing on which franchise he's going to next... in the meantime getting beaten up by an ageing Rodman, fresh off a 24 hr Vegas binge. :nod:
Well that's easy...

Image
Damn... fair.

Although I would tune in to watch KD running with MJ, Pip, and Rodman. Every. Single. Game.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Tehui »

Interesting, the whole 90s Bulls vs Warriors + KD debate. My take is that the Warriors are probably the better team, but the Bulls are a greater team. I know that won't make much sense to some.

MB - Good to have you back. :thumbup:
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Tehui »

fonzeee wrote: Well that's easy...

Image
Ouch! :lol:
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

fonzeee wrote:
Slim 293 wrote:I'd say MJ breaks Durant's will by game 2, and he spends the rest of the series focusing on which franchise he's going to next... in the meantime getting beaten up by an ageing Rodman, fresh off a 24 hr Vegas binge. :nod:
Well that's easy...

Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Slim 293 wrote::thumbup: :lol:

But does KD then come off the bench? I'm not sure how he'd feel being no 3 to MJ and Pippen...
Not a problem, Phil Jackson is the man who can make everybody happy here. The Zen master knows how to massage all egos.
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eldanielfire
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by eldanielfire »

Marshall Banana wrote:
You think Rodman had no problem with Malone? :lol:

Come on... watch the 1998 Finals again. Sheezus.
Marshall Banana wrote:
Bowens wrote:Rodman shut down Malone for most of the 98 finals. Someone did a series of videos on it. Only made a few baskets while Rodman was guarding him in games 1-4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWwI1_8WEco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LksCGBWXWds

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EglLZwE_frI
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have mentioned the 1998 Finals to show Malone's dominance.
Perhaps you should have followed your own advice :lol: :lol: :lol:
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CrazyIslander
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

What about the Bulls vs Warriors without KD but with LeBron?
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Tehui
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Tehui »

CrazyIslander wrote:What about the Bulls vs Warriors without KD but with LeBron?
Harder to judge. We've never seen LBJ play with those players. Any other fantasy players that you want to throw in the mix like Kareem, Bird or Kobe?
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:What about the Bulls vs Warriors without KD but with LeBron?
Harder to judge. We've never seen LBJ play with those players. Any other fantasy players that you want to throw in the mix like Kareem, Bird or Kobe?
Let's assume it goes well.
The thing is people have argued that Jordan's Bulls are better than the Warriors with Durant. Even going to say that individually they're better in the one on one match ups. Now if you take out Durant and put in LeBron, LeBron vs Jordan. Who will win?.
The point is, people are just shaping their explanations to make sure Jordan ends up better than LeBron. Even saying Jordans finals opponents were more difficult and the Bulls were better than a 73-9 team plus Durant. Had LeBron under the old rules he would've been even better given his size and athleticism.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by Tehui »

CrazyIslander wrote:
Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:What about the Bulls vs Warriors without KD but with LeBron?
Harder to judge. We've never seen LBJ play with those players. Any other fantasy players that you want to throw in the mix like Kareem, Bird or Kobe?
Let's assume it goes well.
The thing is people have argued that Jordan's Bulls are better than the Warriors with Durant. Even going to say that individually they're better in the one on one match ups. Now if you take out Durant and put in LeBron, LeBron vs Jordan. Who will win?.
The point is, people are just shaping their explanations to make sure Jordan ends up better than LeBron. Even saying Jordans finals opponents were more difficult and the Bulls were better than a 73-9 team plus Durant. Had LeBron under the old rules he would've been even better given his size and athleticism.
Lebron and Durant will go down as two of the game's greats. The greats would look good in any era.

I'm not sure if the 90s Bulls would beat the Warriors with KD. Individually. that Warriors side were on another level compared to their contemporaries. They had two MVP players in their prime, and probably the best shooting back court in NBA history. The 90s Bulls side had two defensive players of the year, plus Scottie Pippen who made NBA all defensive first team 8 times. They also had a certain MVP player on their side who is recognised by many as the GOAT. The result might depend on which rules the teams are playing in - the rules today, or the rules back in the 90s. The other factor that might swing it is the strength of the team's second units. Who knows? It's all a fantasy anyway. It's like saying who would win, the X Men or the Avengers?
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by fonzeee »

Anyway, I never liked Malone, nor the Jazz. So fudge 'em, and I hope Mitchell leaves them.
Wait a minute, who doesn't like the Utah Jazz?

Speaking of the Jazz, I see Bogdanovic has opted to have season ending surgery. Apparently he was playing hurt for a good part of this career year that he was enjoying.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

Tehui wrote:It's all a fantasy anyway. It's like saying who would win, the X Men or the Avengers?
That's how I see LeBron vs Jordan.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by WoodlandsRFC »

Tehui wrote:Interesting, the whole 90s Bulls vs Warriors + KD debate. My take is that the Warriors are probably the better team, but the Bulls are a greater team. I know that won't make much sense to some.

MB - Good to have you back. :thumbup:
It makes sense, championships plays a large part in that. Lebron is probably the best of all time, but MJ is the greatest.
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Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Post by CrazyIslander »

WoodlandsRFC wrote:
Tehui wrote:Interesting, the whole 90s Bulls vs Warriors + KD debate. My take is that the Warriors are probably the better team, but the Bulls are a greater team. I know that won't make much sense to some.

MB - Good to have you back. :thumbup:
It makes sense, championships plays a large part in that. Lebron is probably the best of all time, but MJ is the greatest.
That makes sense. So my point is, LeBron isn't regarded as the greatest because of the lack of Championships but thats because he came against the GOAT team (IMO) 4 years in a row when he was in his prime.
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