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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:22 pm 
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fonzeee wrote:
Shrekles wrote:
Flyin Ryan wrote:
Tehui wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
It's actually funny how few white American centers there are among the greats, considering that was the poisition where you'd be most likely to find a white boi in my lifetime...I thought about Dan Issel (apparently was 4th all-time leading scorer when he retired in '85, some legend heaped praise on him but can't remember who), but he wasn't even a first ballot HoFer and evidently failed to make that Top 50 list.


It's also interesting how most of the top international players in the NBA predominantly feature in the center position.


Well talent requirements 1 through 17 for the center position is "be tall". There are some countries with China being the prime example where their front court is okay to solid because they bred tall players, but the guards are complete shit.


There have been a number of quality 'white' centers (Dolph Schayes, Mark Eaton, Jack Sikma, Dave Cowens, Gasol, Sabonis, Smits et al) but they have all lacked in athleticism when compared to the greats like: Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jaabar, Ewing, Olajuwon and O'Neal


Dave Cowens was known to be very athletic. Though granted he's the best of those named there and the only one of those that would probably qualify as an all-time great.

There have been other All-Star level tall white guys who were great athletes (Bobby Jones and Tom Chambers come to mind), but they were all power forwards and not really greats, though Jones got into the HoF last year after like 30 years.

(If you count far'ners, Sabonis Sr. was a freak as well, before the commies ruined him)


In Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball Sabonis is the one outlier of his best 96 players of all-time where his best ball was not played mostly in the ABA or NBA.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:12 pm 
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Sabonis was a freak. Similar build to Shaq but skills almost like a guard. Jokic reminds me of him a little bit.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:05 am 
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A great video on 23 Jordan facts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaGGJLAGWeA

Basically it also shows the GOAT argument is one. Jordan was ridiculous, at the top in a group of 1


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:08 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
A great video on 23 Jordan facts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaGGJLAGWeA

Basically it also shows the GOAT argument is one. Jordan was ridiculous, at the top in a group of 1


Haven't got time to watch that now, but just looked at the start.

Jordan was off the mark giving Ehlo shit about his defence in The Last Dance, he played that as well as could be expected. He stuck to him, made him go left and got a hand in his face, it's just that Jordan can stay in the air longer and get the shot off. Ron Harper couldn't have stopped that shit either.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:17 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
A great video on 23 Jordan facts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaGGJLAGWeA

Basically it also shows the GOAT argument is one. Jordan was ridiculous, at the top in a group of 1


Haven't got time to watch that now, but just looked at the start.

Jordan was off the mark giving Ehlo shit about his defence in The Last Dance, he played that as well as could be expected. He stuck to him, made him go left and got a hand in his face, it's just that Jordan can stay in the air longer and get the shot off. Ron Harper couldn't have stopped that shit either.


Deffo catch some of the unique stats that are posted in the video, there is one where Jordan outnumbers the entire NBA as the scoring champ who wins a title as well in the same season.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:48 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
A great video on 23 Jordan facts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaGGJLAGWeA

Basically it also shows the GOAT argument is one. Jordan was ridiculous, at the top in a group of 1


Haven't got time to watch that now, but just looked at the start.

Jordan was off the mark giving Ehlo shit about his defence in The Last Dance, he played that as well as could be expected. He stuck to him, made him go left and got a hand in his face, it's just that Jordan can stay in the air longer and get the shot off. Ron Harper couldn't have stopped that shit either.


Some of the comments I saw suggested that Jordan was basically throwing his buddy Ron a bone. There were some funny comments that came out the day after that aired...Mark Price and Ehlo basically said it was bullshit that he said he wanted to guard MJ, and as Ehlo said Harper was more or less defense-optional at that point of his career.

Ehlo was known as a good defender at the time as well, it was pretty much taken for granted that he would guard the other team's best scorer.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:05 pm 
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Davedj77 wrote:
Shrekles wrote:
ElementFreak wrote:
You can definitely see how it would have been exhausting and understand why mega stars like Jordan, Tendulkar in India, etc stay inside and away from the spotlight. Found it refreshing that his stance was 'I play a sport, I am not out here being an activist'.


Agreed - Jordan is coming out of this with his reputation enhanced in my opinion. Thomas is looking very poor on the other hand.


I've seen criticisms of this series due to Jordan's control over what is in it. Jordan was worried it would make him look bad but perhaps some of the worst stuff has been left out or a rosier picture than the reality has been portrayed?
Whatever the case, Jordan is like a God to me and even if he was an asshole I don't care. To me he is the GOAT athlete in any sport.


Jordan pretty much answers anything thrown at him so far honestly. A bit different to Isiah Thomas literally wriggling around on his seat like a snake justifying the early walkout/no handshake when the Bulls overcame them.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:56 pm 
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It's interesting how MJ would literally make slights up, in almost pathological fashion, to create 'motivation fuel' and improve his performance in trainings & games. Some of rugby's greats have done similar things to create a competitive edge during their rugby career.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:39 am 
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Tehui wrote:
It's interesting how MJ would literally make slights up, in almost pathological fashion, to create 'motivation fuel' and improve his performance in trainings & games. Some of rugby's greats have done similar things to create a competitive edge during their rugby career.


Yeah I recall reading that years ago. Besides his insane skill and speed, it must be depressing that he's mentally the GOAT as well.

I think Reggie Miller has a great story about being a rookie in a friendly with Miller torching the Bulls in the first half and then his team mates goaded him to trash talk MJ who wasn't bothered with the friendly. so Miller full of confidence does, which obviously switched Mj on and MJ then held Miller to zero more points and thrashed the pacers. After the game he then went up to Reggie with a smile and told him "Don't fudge with black santa".


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 11:23 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Tehui wrote:
It's interesting how MJ would literally make slights up, in almost pathological fashion, to create 'motivation fuel' and improve his performance in trainings & games. Some of rugby's greats have done similar things to create a competitive edge during their rugby career.


Yeah I recall reading that years ago. Besides his insane skill and speed, it must be depressing that he's mentally the GOAT as well.

I think Reggie Miller has a great story about being a rookie in a friendly with Miller torching the Bulls in the first half and then his team mates goaded him to trash talk MJ who wasn't bothered with the friendly. so Miller full of confidence does, which obviously switched Mj on and MJ then held Miller to zero more points and thrashed the pacers. After the game he then went up to Reggie with a smile and told him "Don't fudge with black santa".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkks7EqWnhU


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:04 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Tehui wrote:
It's interesting how MJ would literally make slights up, in almost pathological fashion, to create 'motivation fuel' and improve his performance in trainings & games. Some of rugby's greats have done similar things to create a competitive edge during their rugby career.


Yeah I recall reading that years ago. Besides his insane skill and speed, it must be depressing that he's mentally the GOAT as well.

I think Reggie Miller has a great story about being a rookie in a friendly with Miller torching the Bulls in the first half and then his team mates goaded him to trash talk MJ who wasn't bothered with the friendly. so Miller full of confidence does, which obviously switched Mj on and MJ then held Miller to zero more points and thrashed the pacers. After the game he then went up to Reggie with a smile and told him "Don't fudge with black santa".


Apparently after winning his third title against the Suns he stood on the scorers table and screamed 'Thunder Dan my f**king arse' all because Jerry Kraus rated Dan Majerle and Jordan used that as a slight to motivate himself.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 4:42 am 
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Shrekles wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Tehui wrote:
It's interesting how MJ would literally make slights up, in almost pathological fashion, to create 'motivation fuel' and improve his performance in trainings & games. Some of rugby's greats have done similar things to create a competitive edge during their rugby career.


Yeah I recall reading that years ago. Besides his insane skill and speed, it must be depressing that he's mentally the GOAT as well.

I think Reggie Miller has a great story about being a rookie in a friendly with Miller torching the Bulls in the first half and then his team mates goaded him to trash talk MJ who wasn't bothered with the friendly. so Miller full of confidence does, which obviously switched Mj on and MJ then held Miller to zero more points and thrashed the pacers. After the game he then went up to Reggie with a smile and told him "Don't fudge with black santa".


Apparently after winning his third title against the Suns he stood on the scorers table and screamed 'Thunder Dan my f**king arse' all because Jerry Kraus rated Dan Majerle and Jordan used that as a slight to motivate himself.


The Bulls players' relationship with Krause was weird to say the very least. Even after the second championship winning run, Jordan and Pippen used Krause's interest in Tony Kukoc as motivation during the 1992 Olympics. In fairness to Krause, it's a shame he's not around to give his side of the story. As some of the other Bulls players said, he wasn't a bad guy, he just couldn't get out of his own way sometimes.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 10:12 am 
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Just watched episodes 7 & 8. I was a big Jordan fan in the 90s, but I've never see that scene of Jordan lying on the ground in the changing room crying before. Incredibly raw.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 7:08 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Just watched episodes 7 & 8. I was a big Jordan fan in the 90s, but I've never see that scene of Jordan lying on the ground in the changing room crying before. Incredibly raw.

Anyone else feel weird about how the video guy came in and there were already 2 photographers lying near him trying to get a shot of him?


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 7:10 am 
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ElementFreak wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Just watched episodes 7 & 8. I was a big Jordan fan in the 90s, but I've never see that scene of Jordan lying on the ground in the changing room crying before. Incredibly raw.

Anyone else feel weird about how the video guy came in and there were already 2 photographers lying near him trying to get a shot of him?


That was incredibly raw but the poor bloke never had any privacy. fudge living a life like that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 9:08 am 
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Shrekles wrote:
ElementFreak wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Just watched episodes 7 & 8. I was a big Jordan fan in the 90s, but I've never see that scene of Jordan lying on the ground in the changing room crying before. Incredibly raw.

Anyone else feel weird about how the video guy came in and there were already 2 photographers lying near him trying to get a shot of him?


That was incredibly raw but the poor bloke never had any privacy. fudge living a life like that.


He held his dignity well following his father's murder. Having sections of the media print stories that his gambling habit may have attributed to his father's murder was both irresponsible and abhorrent.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 11:01 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Shrekles wrote:
ElementFreak wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Just watched episodes 7 & 8. I was a big Jordan fan in the 90s, but I've never see that scene of Jordan lying on the ground in the changing room crying before. Incredibly raw.

Anyone else feel weird about how the video guy came in and there were already 2 photographers lying near him trying to get a shot of him?


That was incredibly raw but the poor bloke never had any privacy. fudge living a life like that.


He held his dignity well following his father's murder. Having sections of the media print stories that his gambling habit may have attributed to his father's murder was both irresponsible and abhorrent.


After already making conspiracies that the NBA would suspend the man for 2 years who was just making them money like never before. On top of that is the constant demands for crowds. No sports star today was as popular as Jordan was I believe. Even in the Basketball world LeBron's trainers sell 1/10th of Jordan's. NBA regular TV ratings have never reached Jordan's levels in the USA.

From the documentary, it does seem the baseball stuff gave Jordan a lot more space and some happy time to get over his grief. He could just chill, try his best and get mentally refreshed.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 1:00 pm 
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I'm watching episode 7 now.

On a different topic, I ended up taking a risk despite the mixed reviews and got NBA2K20 on PC.

Got to say it's excellent, easily the best basketball game I've ever played. It's still not perfect, but all the people complaining about it on Steam are talking shit really. They just want to develop the best player without having to actually play the game and are complaining that if they want to do that, they have to pay for it. I don't even know WHY you want that, it kind of defeats the purpose of the game. Developing my player is fun, it doesn't feel like a boring "grind" at all. You just can't be a superstar off the bat, that's all, and if you want that for some reason, you have the option to buy the upgrades instead of earn them.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 2:50 pm 
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I must admit, after watching all of the Jordan docco so far, I like him more than I did before. Weird?


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 11:26 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
I must admit, after watching all of the Jordan docco so far, I like him more than I did before. Weird?

Same - he is humorous but flawed and it is great to see the human side of him.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 11:43 pm 
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The only thing that reflects negatively on him has really been how hard he was on his team-mates which anyone familiar with him would already know about.

Maybe he comes across as a bit arrogant and a bit of a bully at times, but it's hardly unusual for mega successful people to be like that.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 12:49 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
The only thing that reflects negatively on him has really been how hard he was on his team-mates which anyone familiar with him would already know about.

Maybe he comes across as a bit arrogant and a bit of a bully at times, but it's hardly unusual for mega successful people to be like that.


I compare Jordan to martial arts instructors that I've had. Jordan would test his team mates physically and psychologically in practice, in order to prepare them for the play offs. The way that Jordan prepared his team mates, came from his early years of trying to get past the Detroit Pistons.

To echo the sentiments that others have said, I like seeing the human nature of Michael Jordan. You couldn't accuse him of being a fake.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 2:59 am 
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Jay Cee Gee wrote:
The only thing that reflects negatively on him has really been how hard he was on his team-mates which anyone familiar with him would already know about.

Maybe he comes across as a bit arrogant and a bit of a bully at times, but it's hardly unusual for mega successful people to be like that.


He was hard on himself too - there was an incident in his last year in practice when little used bench player Jud Beuchler was not at practice. Michael asked where he was and was told he was in the training room getting treatment on a hamstring. Apparently he stormed into the training room, tipped Jud off the table and said “ you have a sore hamstring? I played 40 f**king minutes last night. Everything is sore. Get your arse on the practice court.”


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 4:50 am 
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I wouldn't read too much on how pushed his teammates. He's no different to star players in most teams. Kobe was like that.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 5:13 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
I wouldn't read too much on how pushed his teammates. He's no different to star players in most teams. Kobe was like that.


Yep. Kobe was the remix version of Jordan.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 10:39 am 
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The final episodes 9 & 10 were probably the most 'basketball' centric of the lot. I enjoyed watching that series. MJ sure did conduct himself well off the court during his playing years. A real professional.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:48 am 
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Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:10 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


Do you have LBJ as your second greatest NBA player of all time?


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


Do you have LBJ as your second greatest NBA player of all time?

Yes.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:22 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


Do you have LBJ as your second greatest NBA player of all time?

Yes.


I've got him at about 5. But each to their own.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:32 pm 
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Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


Do you have LBJ as your second greatest NBA player of all time?

Yes.


I've got him at about 5. But each to their own.

So you've got Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, ???


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 3:09 pm 
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Shrekles wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
I must admit, after watching all of the Jordan docco so far, I like him more than I did before. Weird?

Same - he is humorous but flawed and it is great to see the human side of him.


Agreed. Seems a nice guy away from the court, but always willing to take what he dishes out with the goal of winning. Nice it didn't shy away from anything. Jordan answers all the questions and was willing to accept he was hard on people,t hat he doesn't give a shit about criticism of his gambling.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:46 pm 
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Anyways

1) I'm glad the doc ended with Pippen not quiting on the team in the final game and toughing it out big time.

2) Steve Kerr's story, I didn't know much about it.

3) Denis Rodman, we need some Tiger King style documentary about his life here. I mean the doc didn't cover all his Bulls antics, and then there is the post Bulls antics, when he turns up in North Korea and Kim Jong Un's best friend. You just can't invent a Dennis Rodman. I mean turning up with Hulk Hogan in WCW mid NBA finals? :lol: :lol: :lol:

4) Seeing MJ get emotional about having the choice to defend the title and thus ending his Bulls career essentially taken away from him.

5) Chicago's owner, final twist, outs himself as the reason why they tore the team apart then, over money.

6) Shows the greatness of Stockton and Malone's Jazz and Reggie Miller's Pacers, some of the bets teams to never win an NBA final.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:28 pm 
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I've enjoyed The Last Dance so much, I'm really going to miss it, so I've saved the last episode to watch in the next day or two. For me the 1990s was the greatest era for all sports that I love. It probably also had something to do with those being my teenage and early 20s years. I'll never revere another athlete like I did Jordan. He was Godlike then and still is now (I'm not religious at all but if anything, sports is my religion)

It also made me realise how much I miss the NBA this year. I really hope they can conclude this season but I'm not feeling too confident. Even the start of next season could be in jeopardy with the state of things in the USA. They really need to sort their shit out over there so I can get my NBA and NFL fix!


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:45 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Tehui wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jordan vs LeBron?

How unlucky was LeBron to come up against the Warriors (with added Durant) era? Could've easily have had 3 extra rings plus undisputed GOAT. But because of the Warriors I'd rate LeBron second.


Do you have LBJ as your second greatest NBA player of all time?

Yes.


I've got him at about 5. But each to their own.

So you've got Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, ???


I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell & Magic ahead of LBJ.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:59 am 
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Tehui wrote:

I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell & Magic ahead of LBJ.


I love how there are swarms of fans who will shoot you down for that. They will somehow claim the Jordan era was weak, but still be amazed at the quality of the dream team and ignore almost all great players moved eras and showed they were just as good. I mean 40 year old Jordan, well past his peak still ripped it up in the Kobe and Duncan era who was still the league's No1 players for half LeBron career.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:48 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Tehui wrote:

I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell & Magic ahead of LBJ.


I love how there are swarms of fans who will shoot you down for that. They will somehow claim the Jordan era was weak, but still be amazed at the quality of the dream team and ignore almost all great players moved eras and showed they were just as good. I mean 40 year old Jordan, well past his peak still ripped it up in the Kobe and Duncan era who was still the league's No1 players for half LeBron career.


My criteria for assessing the merit of the great NBA players are:

- championships
- individual achievements
- longevity
- 'clutch'
- intangibles.

LBJ would be a great NBA player in any era. But based on those criteria, MJ, Kareem, Russell & Magic are all placed ahead of him in the NBA pantheon. Should LBJ win another championship before he retires, he might move ahead of Magic.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 am 
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Tehui wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Tehui wrote:

I put Jordan, Kareem, Russell & Magic ahead of LBJ.


I love how there are swarms of fans who will shoot you down for that. They will somehow claim the Jordan era was weak, but still be amazed at the quality of the dream team and ignore almost all great players moved eras and showed they were just as good. I mean 40 year old Jordan, well past his peak still ripped it up in the Kobe and Duncan era who was still the league's No1 players for half LeBron career.


My criteria for assessing the merit of the great NBA players are:

- championships
- individual achievements
- longevity
- 'clutch'
- intangibles.

LBJ would be a great NBA player in any era. But based on those criteria, MJ, Kareem, Russell & Magic are all placed ahead of him in the NBA pantheon. Should LBJ win another championship before he retires, he might move ahead of Magic.


I'm in total agreement with you. I'm surprised after all the failures he's had over the years, the lack of doing it in big moments when needed and even some basics like average free throws and shooting and his tendency to give easy turnovers to opponents and well reported mental weakness that people still try to rage to claim he is the GOAT at this point.

The sad thing is pointing this out always makes you soundly overly negative about him as a player. I suspect when his career is over, like Kobe who went from "is he as good as Jordan?" to "is he a top 10 player?" people will stop being prisoners of the moment and LeBron's case at the top will be looked at more objectively and with less enthusiasm. I think the LeBron and his team and sponsors who clearly have invited the GOAT comparisons since early did the perception of LeBron's excellence and career a disservice.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:17 pm 
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But have any of those guys ever come against a team like the Warriors? With Durant?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:31 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
But have any of those guys ever come against a team like the Warriors? With Durant?


Well the Bulls beat Magic’s Lakers for their first title so...


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