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NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory
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Author:  Tehui [ Sat May 23, 2020 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

CrazyIslander wrote:
WoodlandsRFC wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Interesting, the whole 90s Bulls vs Warriors + KD debate. My take is that the Warriors are probably the better team, but the Bulls are a greater team. I know that won't make much sense to some.

MB - Good to have you back. :thumbup:

It makes sense, championships plays a large part in that. Lebron is probably the best of all time, but MJ is the greatest.

That makes sense. So my point is, LeBron isn't regarded as the greatest because of the lack of Championships but thats because he came against the GOAT team (IMO) 4 years in a row when he was in his prime.


I love watching Lebron play. He'll go down as one of the all time greats. But I don't know why apologists continue to make excuses for his lack of championships in comparison to MJ, Kareen, Magic and Russell. Lebron has lost in the finals 6 times, but only 2 times against a Warriors outfit with KD. The championship he really should have won was against Dallas, but he bottled it.

Author:  CrazyIslander [ Sat May 23, 2020 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Coz you need more than one good player to win championships. Plus the Warriors (without Durant) were a 73-9 team in the regular season and he also lost to a great Spurs side. None of Jordan's opponents can compare to those teams.

Author:  Jay Cee Gee [ Sat May 23, 2020 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

He's had good teammates most of the time. No one brings up the first loss with the Cavs or the first loss to the Warriors.

But even if you forget the Warriors, he lost to Dallas with Bosh and prime Dwyane Wade* and then lost another finals with those two plus Ray freaking Allen. Those losses are a big negative mark on his record.

Author:  Slim 293 [ Sat May 23, 2020 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

CrazyIslander wrote:
Coz you need more than one good player to win championships. Plus the Warriors (without Durant) were a 73-9 team in the regular season and he also lost to a great Spurs side. None of Jordan's opponents can compare to those teams.


:lol:

Is this a generational thing?

Author:  Tehui [ Sat May 23, 2020 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Here's a statistical summary of the 5 players whom I consider to be the best to have ever played the game:

5. Lebron James (small forward)

- 3 x championships
- 4 x MVP
- 16 x All Star
- 12 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA Defensive first team
- former rookie of the year
- 1 x scoring champion

Image


4. Magic Johnson (point guard)

- 5 x championships
- 3 x MVP
- 12 x All Star
- 9 x All NBA first team
- 4 x assists leader
- 2 x steals leader

Image


3. Bill Russell (centre)

- 11 x championships
- 5 x MVP
- 12 x All Star
- 3 x All NBA first team
- 1 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 4 x rebounding champion

Image


2. Kareem Abdul-Jabar (centre)

- 6 x championships
- 6 x MVP
- 19 x All Star
- Former Rookie of the Year
- 10 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 2 x NBA scoring champion
- 4 x blocks leader
- 1 x rebounding champion

Image


1. Michael Jordan (shooting guard)

- 6 x championships
- 5 x MVP
- 14 x All Star
- 1 x Defensive Player of the Year
- Former Rookie of the Year
- 10 x All NBA first team
- 9 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 10 x scoring champion

Image

Author:  Slim 293 [ Sat May 23, 2020 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

:thumbup:

MJ is clear #1, but after him it's out of those 4 guys and Larry Bird to round out the top 5.

This was the top 10 for ESPN's best 74 players:

https://www.espn.com.au/nba/story/_/id/ ... l-nos-10-1

Author:  eldanielfire [ Sat May 23, 2020 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

CrazyIslander wrote:
Coz you need more than one good player to win championships. Plus the Warriors (without Durant) were a 73-9 team in the regular season and he also lost to a great Spurs side. None of Jordan's opponents can compare to those teams.


2008 aside, LeBron has always had a really strong team. He doesn't just get mega stars to join, he draws string roll players as well. The 73-9 Warriors team was also in a weaker season era. We know teams play less hard and don't try as much these days. I'll also say that GS team flopped in the final. How you can also say the 91 Lakers wasn't a hugely stacked team or the Stockton and Malone Jazz. Or the 86 Celtics or late 80's Pistons is a joke. Especially considering the sheer desert of nothing Lebron faced in the East 2011 onwards.

Let's not also think the GS Warriors were seen as close to a GOAT team when Kerr first took over. Or that most of the case of the Spurs were past their physical prime by the time they met LeBrons heat. The difference is Jordan consistently went GOAT mode in these situations, win, lose or draw creating historic performances. LeBron frequently wilted when pressure is on.

I see the LeBron debate like the Kobe, people where genuine saying Kobe was one ring away from equalling or besting Jordan. When his career ended people considered if he was top 5 or top 10. It will be the same with LeBron. When his career ends people will stop being prisoner of the moment and see the frequent flaws has has along with the great moments and see he just doesn't stack up against Jordan and he's already had a longer career.

Author:  CrazyIslander [ Sat May 23, 2020 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Come on man, weaker season? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steph and Klay were Reggie Miller on turbo MKII X2. Plus the best defence arguably. That was a great team. People seem to underestimate Steph as a great player. I think because people think 3 pointers are low percentage shots, they rather you go in closer and sink a regulation shot. What happens if the guy shoot high percentage from 3? And equally adapt closer to the paint? And a great defender? Steph will be top 10 all time by the end of his career.

Author:  Bowens [ Sat May 23, 2020 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Curry is a great scorer but he’s not a great defender. Again what sets those Bulls teams apart is that they had three all time great defenders and Harper who was pretty damn good too. Aside from Draymond and maybe Iggy I don’t think GS really have anyone on that level. And MJ did all of his scoring against much more physical defenses than what we see today. Get rid of hand checking and he probably averages 40+. :lol:

Author:  eldanielfire [ Sat May 23, 2020 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Bowens wrote:
Curry is a great scorer but he’s not a great defender. Again what sets those Bulls teams apart is that they had three all time great defenders and Harper who was pretty damn good too. Aside from Draymond and maybe Iggy I don’t think GS really have anyone on that level. And MJ did all of his scoring against much more physical defenses than what we see today. Get rid of hand checking and he probably averages 40+. :lol:


Yeah, I'm getting that in this argument Harper is getting no credit, he was an excellent player. 5 times champion. That's also 4 starting players who are dangerous in getting steals.

Author:  Mog The Almighty [ Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Tehui wrote:
5. Lebron James (small forward)

- 3 x championships
- 4 x MVP
- 16 x All Star
- 12 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA Defensive first team
- former rookie of the year
- 1 x scoring champion

Did anyone win rookie of the year apart from the current one who is not also the "former" rookie of the year?

Former seems a bit superfluous to me. Nitpicking, yeah.

Author:  Mog The Almighty [ Sat May 23, 2020 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Bowens wrote:
Curry is a great scorer but he’s not a great defender. Again what sets those Bulls teams apart is that they had three all time great defenders and Harper who was pretty damn good too. Aside from Draymond and maybe Iggy I don’t think GS really have anyone on that level. And MJ did all of his scoring against much more physical defenses than what we see today. Get rid of hand checking and he probably averages 40+. :lol:

He's a great shooter but his incessant chewing on his mouthguard, and if not his mouthguard, then gum, disqualifies him from greatness. Great men do not spend 98% of their time chewing gum like a teenage cheerleader or anything else within reach like a baby. Pisses me off to no end.

Author:  Tehui [ Sat May 23, 2020 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Mog The Almighty wrote:
Tehui wrote:
5. Lebron James (small forward)

- 3 x championships
- 4 x MVP
- 16 x All Star
- 12 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA Defensive first team
- former rookie of the year
- 1 x scoring champion

Did anyone win rookie of the year apart from the current one who is not also the "former" rookie of the year?

Former seems a bit superfluous to me. Nitpicking, yeah.


I added the word 'former' to remove any potential ambiguity. There are a lot of grammar nazis on PR who would rather argue linguistics than discuss the actual subject. A little bit like what you are doing.

Author:  Tehui [ Sun May 24, 2020 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Bowens wrote:
Curry is a great scorer but he’s not a great defender. Again what sets those Bulls teams apart is that they had three all time great defenders and Harper who was pretty damn good too. Aside from Draymond and maybe Iggy I don’t think GS really have anyone on that level. And MJ did all of his scoring against much more physical defenses than what we see today. Get rid of hand checking and he probably averages 40+. :lol:


The Warriors at their peak were a great defensive team, just not on the Bulls' level when it comes to defense. Draymond is a former Defensive player of the year, he deserves credit for that. But to add to your list, Klay Thompson is also a great defender.

Curry could potentially go into the top 10 when his career is finished. He's not finished winning championships or MVP awards yet.

I agree with your assessment on MJ if he was playing during an era without hand checking. Easy.

Author:  Marshall Banana [ Sun May 24, 2020 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

fonzeee wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, I never liked Malone, nor the Jazz. So fudge 'em, and I hope Mitchell leaves them.


Wait a minute, who doesn't like the Utah Jazz?

Speaking of the Jazz, I see Bogdanovic has opted to have season ending surgery. Apparently he was playing hurt for a good part of this career year that he was enjoying.


Me. Worst fan base in the league. I like most of their players, tho - Boj included.

Author:  Marshall Banana [ Sun May 24, 2020 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

So Mickey Mouse to the rescue, and maybe, just maybe, the season will resume in a couple of months:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29213517/nba-talks-resume-play-disney-espn-wide-world-sports-complex

Would be nice.

Author:  Marshall Banana [ Sun May 24, 2020 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

CrazyIslander wrote:
Come on man, weaker season? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Steph and Klay were Reggie Miller on turbo MKII X2. Plus the best defence arguably. That was a great team. People seem to underestimate Steph as a great player. I think because people think 3 pointers are low percentage shots, they rather you go in closer and sink a regulation shot. What happens if the guy shoot high percentage from 3? And equally adapt closer to the paint? And a great defender? Steph will be top 10 all time by the end of his career.


Yeah, the weakened season is just nonsense.

Larry Bird in 1997, "the league is a lot more watered down than when I played, so when you have a star like Michael Jordan, you rule the league".

Multiple expansion teams will do that. 6 teams won 26 games or fewer when the Bulls went 72-10. Only 4 did that when the Warriors went 73-9.

The Bulls also had the advantage of a shortened 3-point line when they went 72-10. When it was extended back out, the Bulls went from 6th in the league to 23rd in 3P%.

Author:  jamesfreeman [ Sun May 24, 2020 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Tehui wrote:
Here's a statistical summary of the 5 players whom I consider to be the best to have ever played the game:

5. Lebron James (small forward)

- 3 x championships
- 4 x MVP
- 16 x All Star
- 12 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA Defensive first team
- former rookie of the year
- 1 x scoring champion

Image


4. Magic Johnson (point guard)

- 5 x championships
- 3 x MVP
- 12 x All Star
- 9 x All NBA first team
- 4 x assists leader
- 2 x steals leader

Image


3. Bill Russell (centre)

- 11 x championships
- 5 x MVP
- 12 x All Star
- 3 x All NBA first team
- 1 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 4 x rebounding champion

Image


2. Kareem Abdul-Jabar (centre)

- 6 x championships
- 6 x MVP
- 19 x All Star
- Former Rookie of the Year
- 10 x All NBA first team
- 5 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 2 x NBA scoring champion
- 4 x blocks leader
- 1 x rebounding champion

Image


1. Michael Jordan (shooting guard)

- 6 x championships
- 5 x MVP
- 14 x All Star
- 1 x Defensive Player of the Year
- Former Rookie of the Year
- 10 x All NBA first team
- 9 x NBA All Defensive First Team
- 10 x scoring champion

Image


Good list, personally I would have Bird ahead of Lebron but cant quibble as he definitely the greatest contemporary player.

Author:  CrazyIslander [ Sun May 24, 2020 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Image

Author:  Tehui [ Sun May 24, 2020 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

jamesfreeman wrote:
Good list, personally I would have Bird ahead of Lebron but cant quibble as he definitely the greatest contemporary player.


I've assessed Lebron ahead of Bird mainly due to longevity. Bird was an assassin though. I've never really settled on players from 6 - 15, as I find it more difficult to put some players ahead of others in that list. i.e. Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Kobe, Duncan, Chamberlain, Robertson, Isaiah, West.

Larry Bird

- 3 x championships
- 3 x MVPs
- 12 x All Star
- 9 x All NBA first team
- former rookie of the year

Image

Author:  fonzeee [ Sun May 24, 2020 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

I've heard it said that Magic had a better career than Bird, but that peak Bird was better than peak Magic. Fwiw

Author:  Marshall Banana [ Sun May 24, 2020 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

fonzeee wrote:
I've heard it said that Magic had a better career than Bird, but that peak Bird was better than peak Magic. Fwiw


Interesting. Maybe because Bird was the better defender?

Tough for me to say - I got to see neither in their prime. NBA "Classic Games" has helped a ton, but not enough...

First NBA games I saw were the 1991 Finals. Magic was still awesome, but Worthy was hurt, and MJ was the best player in the game, so that was that!

Sucked for me, because I was rooting for the Lakers. With my Lakers singlet on, just quietly.

My younger bro, born Feb 23, had adopted the Bulls. The plum never lets me forget it either. :frown:

Author:  Marshall Banana [ Sun May 24, 2020 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Were the 1991 Finals the first Finals broadcast in NZ?

Maybe the year previously?

YouTube has all 5 games up, FFS. Kids today have it so good!

Author:  jamesfreeman [ Sun May 24, 2020 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Tehui wrote:
jamesfreeman wrote:
Good list, personally I would have Bird ahead of Lebron but cant quibble as he definitely the greatest contemporary player.


I've assessed Lebron ahead of Bird mainly due to longevity. Bird was an assassin though. I've never really settled on players from 6 - 15, as I find it more difficult to put some players ahead of others in that list. i.e. Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Kobe, Duncan, Chamberlain, Robertson, Isaiah, West.

Larry Bird

- 3 x championships
- 3 x MVPs
- 12 x All Star
- 9 x All NBA first team
- former rookie of the year

Image


:thumbup:

And Bird's back injury (from digging a hole at mothers place from what I remember) held him back as did that number one draft pick for celtics dying too held back his team too...

Author:  jamesfreeman [ Sun May 24, 2020 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Also for me it kind of a toss up between Bird and Lebron as I definitely can respect Lebron at number 5. Am hoping he gets another championship too. The other ones mentioned yeah I put them in rest of my top 10. With Kobe I usually put him at number 11 but if someone has him higher I dont mind that. But for me I definitely have Duncan ranked ahead of Kobe though. I liked Kobe's mamba mentality and his basketball IQ but his efficiency left a lot to be desired at times but he definitely was a great streaky player who could catch on fire in games...

Author:  Tehui [ Sun May 24, 2020 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

jamesfreeman wrote:
And Bird's back injury (from digging a hole at mothers place from what I remember) held him back as did that number one draft pick for celtics dying too held back his team too...


Yeah, that's right. Bird's career had a few 'what ifs'. If he didn't get injured his career could have been even more spectacular. People talk about Lebron's 'what ifs', but every athlete has them. For example, Isaiah Thomas & the Pistons could have 3 titles in a row if he didn't injure his ankle against the Lakers in the 88 NBA finals.

I remember watching the Celtics v Lakers battles in the mid 80s. Everybody goes on about Bird v Magic, but damn, the thing I remember most is watching James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Kareem and Parish go at it. Two great sides.

Author:  Shrekles [ Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Marshall Banana wrote:
fonzeee wrote:
I've heard it said that Magic had a better career than Bird, but that peak Bird was better than peak Magic. Fwiw


Interesting. Maybe because Bird was the better defender?

Tough for me to say - I got to see neither in their prime. NBA "Classic Games" has helped a ton, but not enough...

First NBA games I saw were the 1991 Finals. Magic was still awesome, but Worthy was hurt, and MJ was the best player in the game, so that was that!

Sucked for me, because I was rooting for the Lakers. With my Lakers singlet on, just quietly.

My younger bro, born Feb 23, had adopted the Bulls. The plum never lets me forget it either. :frown:


My first basketball memory is the 82 NCAA final - I don’t remember Jordan from that game but I remember Ewing goal tending the first 4 North Carolina shots.

Then it was Lakers v Celtics all through the 80s - I chose Celtics and my two brothers Lakers. Larry Legend is still my all time favourite player.

I also remember Jordan at the 84 olympics.

Author:  eldanielfire [ Sun May 24, 2020 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

fonzeee wrote:
I've heard it said that Magic had a better career than Bird, but that peak Bird was better than peak Magic. Fwiw


Possibly, Magic also had the better teams more often. 87 onwards Bird was basically always dealing with a back issue and constantly playing through pain. He had to lie down when off the bench during games to be able to physically play. It cut short his peak career sadly.

Author:  CrazyIslander [ Sun May 24, 2020 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

jamesfreeman wrote:
I liked Kobe's mamba mentality and his basketball IQ but his efficiency left a lot to be desired at times but he definitely was a great streaky player who could catch on fire in games...


That's what I didn't get when people complained about LeBron vs Warriors (last 2 series). That he didn't take all the shots like Kobe. Kobe would've taken all the shots even if he was shooting at 30%, he would've ridden the team down.

LeBron did this in the first finals vs Warriors and was brilliant but it wasnt enough. He learned from that and with Kyrie/Love back the next series he shared the ball and won. LeBron knew he needed to get his team mates in the game for any chance to win. But he got no help, but at least he tried to win rather than try to do it himself knowing it would definitely lead to defeat.

Author:  Jay Cee Gee [ Mon May 25, 2020 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Disney World confirmed as preferred option. Still a lot to work through, but July restart looking promising.

Author:  Tehui [ Mon May 25, 2020 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Lebron is hungry to play during lockdown. The conversation between 0:20 - 1:00 cracked me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU0fphnJmuY

Author:  Bowens [ Mon May 25, 2020 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Disney World confirmed as preferred option. Still a lot to work through, but July restart looking promising.


WWOS is pretty much the ideal facility. It has a couple of basketball arenas (one can be divided up into multiple courts) and loads of nearby hotel space.

Author:  goeagles [ Mon May 25, 2020 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

So if the NBA gets going again in a single location, does that mean we will get basketball played basically all day long, pretty much every day? Would be awesome, although less awesome for my work productivity.

Author:  CrazyIslander [ Mon May 25, 2020 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Bring it on!!!

Author:  Tehui [ Tue May 26, 2020 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Random question - when is the NBA draft due to take place? Just wondering how the draft is affected due to the suspension of this NBA season, as it pertains to seedings for top picks, etc.

Author:  Jay Cee Gee [ Tue May 26, 2020 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Tehui wrote:
Random question - when is the NBA draft due to take place? Just wondering how the draft is affected due to the suspension of this NBA season, as it pertains to seedings for top picks, etc.



It was supposed to be in a few weeks time. On hold till they work through how the final standings will be affected etc.

It wasn't a particularly deep draft and the lack of college game play and unavailability of players for pre draft workouts etc means it's probably gonna be a massive crap shoot and some really good players might be able to picked up in the later picks.

Author:  Tehui [ Tue May 26, 2020 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: NBA season 2019/20 - Purgatory

Jay Cee Gee wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Random question - when is the NBA draft due to take place? Just wondering how the draft is affected due to the suspension of this NBA season, as it pertains to seedings for top picks, etc.



It was supposed to be in a few weeks time. On hold till they work through how the final standings will be affected etc.

It wasn't a particularly deep draft and the lack of college game play and unavailability of players for pre draft workouts etc means it's probably gonna be a massive crap shoot and some really good players might be able to picked up in the later picks.


Thanks for the update.

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