One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

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Demilich
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One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Demilich »

Just reading Silvergrin's "congrats North Harbour" post, and it strikes me the as rather sad that the most fitting description for modern day rugby fans seems to be:

"A bunch of ref-blaming shitcunts."

Now it's obviously not limited to rugby (it is becoming more prevalent across all sports) and it has always been around to some degree. But it is now drowning all other analysis of rugby. The number one fan theme after games at every level, be they kids, school-boy, grass roots, club, province, franchise or international is to pan the ref.

Rather sad really.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Vahian »

To be fair rugby's rules are open to interpretation to the point where we all acknowledge that different referees rule on the game differently. Which in turn has created players in the pro era to play to the ref and push every boundary they can.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Demilich »

Vahian wrote:To be fair rugby's rules are open to interpretation to the point where we all acknowledge that different referees rule on the game differently. Which in turn has created players in the pro era to play to the ref and push every boundary they can.
Oh, I agree wholly with that. But either the game is broken to the point where it is giving us no choice but to be ref-blaming shitcunts, or we're allowing these interpretations to excuse our inner ref-blaming shitcuntiness.

My leaning would be towards it being "a pinch from column A and a Matt Dunning (pre-retirement) sized portion from column B".
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Fat Old Git »

Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
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Demilich
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Demilich »

Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
Yes. Unfortunately it is trending the other way. At a great rate of knots.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by wamberal99 »

Ted. wrote: Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.

Yes, Ted, life is complicated, and getting more complicated every day. But entertainment is simple, and getting simpler and more varied by the day.


Rugby is a professional sport and therefore falls under the broad category "entertainment".


What you or I would like to see matters to you and me. What matters to the survival of the game is what the paying customers want to see. And the paying customers as a whole, not just you and me, are going to be a very different breed with each passing year.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Fat Old Git »

Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

wamberal99 wrote:
Ted. wrote: Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.

Yes, Ted, life is complicated, and getting more complicated every day. But entertainment is simple, and getting simpler and more varied by the day.


Rugby is a professional sport and therefore falls under the broad category "entertainment".


What you or I would like to see matters to you and me. What matters to the survival of the game is what the paying customers want to see. And the paying customers as a whole, not just you and me, are going to be a very different breed with each passing year.
Paying customers are fickle. They are followers of fashion. What the game really needs to survive is a core of devotees. Without that core, it is at risk of losing identity, paying customers and ultimately its existence. Sport is a little bit different to most commoditised entertainment that abounds today, for a start many of us played it, many were involved at various levels, it is tribal, it is also regarded as a healthy pastime. So while marketing and catering to markets is important, please don't give me glib marketing bullshit.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Sandstorm »

I blame HD telly and the interweb. Everything is right there in total clarity for the fans and seconds later you can debate it online. Nowhere for refs 50/50 calls or mistakes to hide any more
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Demilich »

Sandstorm wrote:I blame HD telly and the interweb. Everything is right there in total clarity for the fans and seconds later you can debate it online. Nowhere for refs 50/50 calls or mistakes to hide any more
Certainly it facilitates it. It's not to "blame" though, is it? Still requires the fans/media/coaches/players to act like moany shitcunts.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by CrazyIslander »

One word "spoilt"

Rugby has never been played better yet complaints levels have never been higher.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Sandstorm »

Many Fans are also much better informed about the laws and can see when mistakes are made, especially by the TMO. Rugby is professional, refs are well paid, tickets are expensive and fans are right to demand the best.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Backwoodsman1 »

Fat Old Git wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.



This, just this. Also should be stipulated by the various Unions that broadcasters have a duty of care to ensure their individual commentators respect the ethos of the game in the commentary.
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Demilich
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Demilich »

Sandstorm wrote:Many Fans are also much better informed about the laws and can see when mistakes are made, especially by the TMO. Rugby is professional, refs are well paid, tickets are expensive and fans are right to demand the best.
They get "the best". And more often than not the fans are wrong and poorly informed about the laws.

But even if it was a fact that refereeing was universally poor (which would point to a game that was horribly flawed), fans, media, players and coaches would still be coming across as moany shitcunts with the way they go on about it regardless. It really is a terrible look for the sport.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Duff Paddy »

Backwoodsman1 wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.



This, just this. Also should be stipulated by the various Unions that broadcasters have a duty of care to ensure their individual commentators respect the ethos of the game in the commentary.
Possibly the best 4 posts I've ever read on this forum
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Dork Lard »

Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
...or just flatout deliberate cheating. :roll:
And yeah Rugby fans have evolved a lot. Very unfortunate but not surprising.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Fat Old Git »

Dork Lard wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
...or just flatout deliberate cheating. :roll:
And yeah Rugby fans have evolved a lot. Very unfortunate but not surprising.
Some infringements will be deliberate cheating of course, but most just reflect the complicated and difficult nature of the game. A play which is legal one moment, isn't the next because of a subject call, for example, about the exact moment that a ruck was formed. Or a player who had just been knocked over, or knocked someone else over, rolled on the ground as a result and then jumped up to rejoin play as quickly as possible won't be in quite the position they think they are.

If you really think deliberate cheating is more common than accidental errors, and your use if the " :roll: " suggests you do, then it would seem it's not just the refs some fans disrespect but the players as well.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by grubberkick »

Better sighted.

Ref abuse is ancient but is likely more prevalent these days because mistakes are more evident thanks to tv coverage and close up tv pictures. Mistakes are now obvious rather than suspected. Didn't we not so long ago have a big screen sending off in an international game when the home big-screen tv coverage was used to point the ref in the right direction. Cricket had a similar problem when tv spectators were provided with a better view of the action than the umpires....challenges decided by the third umpire were the result.

Maybe rugby should revert to the days when the ref just blew his whistle and awarded a free kick, pen, try, dg etc without explanation! Can't beat a bit of mystique.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by globus »

I never, ever, argued with a ref (despite some severe provocation).

Those that do should be sent off. Full stop.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by message #2527204 »

globus wrote:I never, ever, argued with a ref (despite some severe provocation).

Those that do should be sent off. Full stop.
A little harsh .... penalty first, surely?
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by globus »

message #2527204 wrote:
globus wrote:I never, ever, argued with a ref (despite some severe provocation).

Those that do should be sent off. Full stop.
A little harsh .... penalty first, surely?
I was in a match when the ref just walked up the pitch 10 (yards) then another 10, then another and another.

I found myself just outside their 22. Kicked the pen. That shut them up.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ellafan »

Fat Old Git wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.
Which sport would that be FOG?
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Jackal79 »

Ted. wrote:Paying customers are fickle. They are followers of fashion. What the game really needs to survive is a core of devotees. Without that core, it is at risk of losing identity, paying customers and ultimately its existence. Sport is a little bit different to most commoditised entertainment that abounds today, for a start many of us played it, many were involved at various levels, it is tribal, it is also regarded as a healthy pastime. So while marketing and catering to markets is important, please don't give me glib marketing bullshit.
Unfortunately paying customers are the lifeblood of any professional sport. I think what you're really saying is you'd have preferred it had the game remained amateur.

On the subject of the refs, there's definitely a balance to be struck. At times it feels like they're given too much respect, of course they need to be accountable for performances just like players & coaches are, otherwise last night's Blues v Scarlets debacle becomes commonplace.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Yourmother »

Jackal79 wrote:
Ted. wrote:Paying customers are fickle. They are followers of fashion. What the game really needs to survive is a core of devotees. Without that core, it is at risk of losing identity, paying customers and ultimately its existence. Sport is a little bit different to most commoditised entertainment that abounds today, for a start many of us played it, many were involved at various levels, it is tribal, it is also regarded as a healthy pastime. So while marketing and catering to markets is important, please don't give me glib marketing bullshit.
Unfortunately paying customers are the lifeblood of any professional sport. I think what you're really saying is you'd have preferred it had the game remained amateur.

On the subject of the refs, there's definitely a balance to be struck. At times it feels like they're given too much respect, of course they need to be accountable for performances just like players & coaches are, otherwise last night's Blues v Scarlets debacle becomes commonplace.
They are accountable. And in the way it works now, it makes more sense to judge them behind closed doors. Else the braying hordes find justification in their braying.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Salient »

Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
Good point, teams I support have had some tough calls, all part and parcel of the game, man up and accept Refs are human as well, ergo just like us they make mistakes :thumbup:
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Vahian »

Duff Paddy wrote:
Backwoodsman1 wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.



This, just this. Also should be stipulated by the various Unions that broadcasters have a duty of care to ensure their individual commentators respect the ethos of the game in the commentary.
Possibly the best 4 posts I've ever read on this forum
I agree nice to see a topic actually discussed without someone flying off the deep end.

As to what you've said "broadcasters have a duty of care to ensure their individual commentators respect the ethos of the game" if we could also hold the media to this form of standard we would be heading back in the right direction. I'm so sick of the S Jones, M Reasons and G Paul of this world.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Flametop »

The fact that every match has results in disagreements about refs' decisions highlights the fact the game has a big problem with how the laws are being "interpreted"

When a ref could justifiably award a penalty to either team at every ruck, then when the ref decides it's either pandering to his particular pet hate or worse can be perceived as weakness or bias.

Either way, not good for the game.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

Jackal79 wrote:
Ted. wrote:Paying customers are fickle. They are followers of fashion. What the game really needs to survive is a core of devotees. Without that core, it is at risk of losing identity, paying customers and ultimately its existence. Sport is a little bit different to most commoditised entertainment that abounds today, for a start many of us played it, many were involved at various levels, it is tribal, it is also regarded as a healthy pastime. So while marketing and catering to markets is important, please don't give me glib marketing bullshit.
Unfortunately paying customers are the lifeblood of any professional sport. I think what you're really saying is you'd have preferred it had the game remained amateur.

On the subject of the refs, there's definitely a balance to be struck. At times it feels like they're given too much respect, of course they need to be accountable for performances just like players & coaches are, otherwise last night's Blues v Scarlets debacle becomes commonplace.
No, definitely not.

Look at it this way, commercial precepts, including good marketing, are now the lifeblood of sport, but contrary to most commercial endeavours, in sport you want a relatively healthy and strong rival. Sporting enterprises are different to other enterprises. Traditional rivalries, scheduling of seasons, particular locations for particular competition (6 Nations for e.g.), etc, are all important to the players and the fans but don't necessarily make commercial sense when viewed from a purely non-sporting commercial perspective.

What I was trying to explain up page is what draws in, say, the younger generation one season, may fall flat the next, so you are better catering to your core follower rather than trying to stick slavishly to fashion and that includes how you treat the laws of the game. Changing the laws at a whim because the marketing department is making demands is about as stupid as it gets as far as I am concerned. Changing the laws because there is a long term ground swell of opposition to the existing ones amongst hard core fans is another matter entirely.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

Flametop wrote:The fact that every match has results in disagreements about refs' decisions highlights the fact the game has a big problem with how the laws are being "interpreted"

When a ref could justifiably award a penalty to either team at every ruck, then when the ref decides it's either pandering to his particular pet hate or worse can be perceived as weakness or bias.

Either way, not good for the game.
Read the post above yours. Media like to beat things up and to death because it results in clicks from the lowest common denominators.

Sure there are issues with the laws, but these are fed on and exaggerated by the media and television in particular. In a way, Chieka has been playing that game too in an attempt to win hearts and minds, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Jackal79 »

Ted. wrote:Read the post above yours. Media like to beat things up and to death because it results in clicks from the lowest common denominators.

Sure there are issues with the laws, but these are fed on and exaggerated by the media and television in particular. In a way, Chieka has been playing that game too in an attempt to win hearts and minds, but that is a discussion for another thread.
Not sure about that, my feeling is the media tend to downplay it a lot of the time. It is the biggest issue facing the sport going forwards. At times the sheer ambiguity of the laws, particularly around the breakdown area, can make RU look like a playground game. A professional sport can only carry on like that for so long.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Fat Old Git »

Ellafan wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Rugby is reasonably complicated. At any given point you can have players from both sides infringing (mostly timing errors or genuine mistakes rather than deliberate cheating) so no matter which way a ref calls it one side will probably feel hard done by.
Life is complicated. I would really not like to see the game dumbed down to suit a few of the less capable and discerning fans or as a reaction to referees copping it. I'd rather more effort went into respecting the refs.
I agree completely. Those who don't understand the situation above and as a result can't respect the refs and the difficulties they face should bugger off to another sport as far as I'm concerned.
Which sport would that be FOG?
Javlin catching would be my pick.

Although a more serious suggestion would be something they enjoy playing or watching that doesn't regularly leave them feeling pissed off and hard done by when their team loses. It's supposed to be enjoyable after all.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

Jackal79 wrote:
Ted. wrote:Read the post above yours. Media like to beat things up and to death because it results in clicks from the lowest common denominators.

Sure there are issues with the laws, but these are fed on and exaggerated by the media and television in particular. In a way, Chieka has been playing that game too in an attempt to win hearts and minds, but that is a discussion for another thread.
Not sure about that, my feeling is the media tend to downplay it a lot of the time. It is the biggest issue facing the sport going forwards. At times the sheer ambiguity of the laws, particularly around the breakdown area, can make RU look like a playground game. A professional sport can only carry on like that for so long.
Agree the breakdown is a mess, but I fear some would have the baby out with the bathwater.

Let's take the other rugby code for example. It has far simpler laws, less moving parts and seems to be easier on the refs, yet the sport is manifestly less popular than Rugby. Sure, there are improvements to work on in Rugby, but changing the basic nature of the game, dumbing it down so to speak, as suggested by Wambers, is not the answer in my opinion.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Flametop »

Ted. wrote:
Jackal79 wrote:
Ted. wrote:Read the post above yours. Media like to beat things up and to death because it results in clicks from the lowest common denominators.

Sure there are issues with the laws, but these are fed on and exaggerated by the media and television in particular. In a way, Chieka has been playing that game too in an attempt to win hearts and minds, but that is a discussion for another thread.
Not sure about that, my feeling is the media tend to downplay it a lot of the time. It is the biggest issue facing the sport going forwards. At times the sheer ambiguity of the laws, particularly around the breakdown area, can make RU look like a playground game. A professional sport can only carry on like that for so long.
Agree the breakdown is a mess, but I fear some would have the baby out with the bathwater.

Let's take the other rugby code for example. It has far simpler laws, less moving parts and seems to be easier on the refs, yet the sport is manifestly less popular than Rugby. Sure, there are improvements to work on in Rugby, but changing the basic nature of the game, dumbing it down so to speak, as suggested by Wambers, is not the answer in my opinion.
One could argue that rugby has become league without the fifth tackle.
There is just no room on the field.
I'll risk it, but watching the fittest team with the ball in play longer just up the tempo to score is boring.
There's little guile any more, just rinse and repeat.
Most sports have captivating one on one duels, a game within a game.
It's a lot harder now with three players waiting to smash you in the tram lines.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Oceanbreeze »

You would think with TMO, whinging about the ref should have been reduced.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by fatcat »

Splendid regressive liberal chaps who admire PE teachers.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by SilverGrin »

A bit rough calling me a shitcunt, my post was chiefly to applaud Harbour and how they deserved to win.

I didn't blame the ref for the loss and still don't. The way I saw it though, was that Harbour backs were up very fast, often breaching the offside line and the ref let it go. That's fine, you play to the ref. It was frustrating to watch Otago fail to deal with the rush defense.
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by the curse »

thank you the SA tin foil hat brigade, your whinging has spread to the rest of the world, as high up as the Aust coach even...
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ted. »

Flametop wrote:
Ted. wrote:
Jackal79 wrote:
Ted. wrote:Read the post above yours. Media like to beat things up and to death because it results in clicks from the lowest common denominators.

Sure there are issues with the laws, but these are fed on and exaggerated by the media and television in particular. In a way, Chieka has been playing that game too in an attempt to win hearts and minds, but that is a discussion for another thread.
Not sure about that, my feeling is the media tend to downplay it a lot of the time. It is the biggest issue facing the sport going forwards. At times the sheer ambiguity of the laws, particularly around the breakdown area, can make RU look like a playground game. A professional sport can only carry on like that for so long.
Agree the breakdown is a mess, but I fear some would have the baby out with the bathwater.

Let's take the other rugby code for example. It has far simpler laws, less moving parts and seems to be easier on the refs, yet the sport is manifestly less popular than Rugby. Sure, there are improvements to work on in Rugby, but changing the basic nature of the game, dumbing it down so to speak, as suggested by Wambers, is not the answer in my opinion.
One could argue that rugby has become league without the fifth tackle.
There is just no room on the field.
I'll risk it, but watching the fittest team with the ball in play longer just up the tempo to score is boring.
There's little guile any more, just rinse and repeat.
Most sports have captivating one on one duels, a game within a game.
It's a lot harder now with three players waiting to smash you in the tram lines.
One would lose that argument. Mind you, if the experimental laws just trialled in the NZ NPC had been adopted, your argument would be considerably stronger.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: One sentence to best sum up current-day rugby fans...

Post by Ali's Choice »

I believe we should just accept the fact that Rugby is a highly technical game with lots of rules that are open to interpretation. Moaning about the referee is now an accepted part of our game and will only get worse. We either accept that fact or try and simplify the laws.
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