Southern Rail Strike

All things Rugby
User avatar
happyhooker
Posts: 23124
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by happyhooker »

Anonymous. wrote:
bimboman wrote:So postmen on strike next week, absolutely no coincidence that their grievances can't be dealt with at any other time of the year and with a series of strikes.
Fire them all I say.
I bet you think they only aired their grievances last week and that if they are to hold industrial action they should do so at a time that would cause least disruption and as a thank you their bosses would be more likely to listen to them.


Sometimes I would rather slap you than jockey
Woah.

Keep your options open
User avatar
Sefton
Posts: 15762
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Sefton »

happyhooker wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
bimboman wrote:So postmen on strike next week, absolutely no coincidence that their grievances can't be dealt with at any other time of the year and with a series of strikes.
Fire them all I say.
I bet you think they only aired their grievances last week and that if they are to hold industrial action they should do so at a time that would cause least disruption and as a thank you their bosses would be more likely to listen to them.


Sometimes I would rather slap you than jockey
Woah.

Keep your options open
If he didn't have such a weak wrist and a lack of ambition then he could slap through one straight on to the other.
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.
User avatar
Chuckles1188
Posts: 40610
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 am
Location: Joint No. 3 to Cyprus

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Chuckles1188 »

From the Eye

Image
User avatar
theo
Posts: 13023
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by theo »

What a mess.
User avatar
tabascoboy
Posts: 10801
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: 曇りの街

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by tabascoboy »

bimboman wrote:So postmen on strike next week, absolutely no coincidence that their grievances can't be dealt with at any other time of the year and with a series of strikes.


Fire them all I say.
It isn't "postmen" who are on strike but Post Office staff. Royal Mail are continuing to operate. At least calumny the right people!
A spokesperson from Royal Mail said: "If any industrial action takes place in Post Office Ltd, Royal Mail will be operating as normal. We expect there to be no or little effect on the services we provide to our customers.

"Royal Mail customers will also continue to have access to Royal Mail services including pre-paid parcel drop-off through over 1,200 customer service points at delivery offices nationwide."
Lorthern Nights

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Lorthern Nights »

Edinburgh01 wrote:
After many years in relatively senior management, I'd agree that a big part of the problem lies in management. Even in companies that pride themselves on treating their staff well, middle and senior management are out of touch with the realities of life for their staff, and have little idea about how to manage effectively.

Over the years I have noticed that managers focus more and more on the processes of management rather than execute the actual skills. As an example, at the last bank I worked for, they were proud that everyone had at least a monthly one to one, and quarterly appraisals. I used to regularly argue that many mangers were hiding behind these processes. As a manager you need to be talking to your staff all the time. You need to be aware of issues as they arise, and deal with them, aware of who needs help, who is praiseworthy and give it immediately, who has issues at home, travelling etc. If you rely on monthly one to ones, as many did, you are not managing and your staff will be disgruntled and less effective than they could be.

Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.

My wife worked for HMRC for a while, and we know people in the NHS, and from what we hear it is even worse in those organisations. People are well meaning, but just do not have the basic management skills, so fall back on blindly following processes without actually understanding what they are meant to achieve.

Rant over.
Good post fella. :thumbup:
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 29067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Hut 8

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.
This is the cult of Western business. The hierarchical structures whereby
- the people making the decisions are furthest divorced from the people who pay for the business (the customers)
- anyone with the skills in dealing with customers is promoted away from that position of effectiveness (because it's the only way to climb the ladder to get more money). Except in banks and the Civil Service where you get promoted for sitting around long enough no matter how sh*te you are. In fact, being sh*te is a help in the public sector as you get promoted away from where you can cause litigatory harm.
- and a whole bollox industry has developed around this to deliver pseudo-science solutions on business effectiveness which cost £gazillions and deliver f**k all. The nonsense of the target/metric is a shining example: as soon as the measure is introduced, behaviour is modified to meet the target rather than improve the customer experience/outcome = it usually makes things worse
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote: Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.
This is the cult of Western business. The hierarchical structures whereby
- the people making the decisions are furthest divorced from the people who pay for the business (the customers)
- anyone with the skills in dealing with customers is promoted away from that position of effectiveness (because it's the only way to climb the ladder to get more money). Except in banks and the Civil Service where you get promoted for sitting around long enough no matter how sh*te you are. In fact, being sh*te is a help in the public sector as you get promoted away from where you can cause litigatory harm.
- and a whole bollox industry has developed around this to deliver pseudo-science solutions on business effectiveness which cost £gazillions and deliver f**k all. The nonsense of the target/metric is a shining example: as soon as the measure is introduced, behaviour is modified to meet the target rather than improve the customer experience/outcome = it usually makes things worse
Much of that is accurate, however I'd question that western business suffer most from hierarchical structures, anyone who has swap business cards with a Japanese representative will tell u it could be worse.
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 29067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Hut 8

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

bimboman wrote:Much of that is accurate, however I'd question that western business suffer most from hierarchical structures, anyone who has swap business cards with a Japanese representative will tell u it could be worse.
That is ritual rather than process tho?

After all, it was pretty much Toyota which broke this mould and became a global giant as a result.
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
bimboman wrote:Much of that is accurate, however I'd question that western business suffer most from hierarchical structures, anyone who has swap business cards with a Japanese representative will tell u it could be worse.
That is ritual rather than process tho?

After all, it was pretty much Toyota which broke this mould and became a global giant as a result.

Japanese and now Chinese firms are spectacularly Hierarcial still.
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 29067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Hut 8

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

bimboman wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
bimboman wrote:Much of that is accurate, however I'd question that western business suffer most from hierarchical structures, anyone who has swap business cards with a Japanese representative will tell u it could be worse.
That is ritual rather than process tho?

After all, it was pretty much Toyota which broke this mould and became a global giant as a result.

Japanese and now Chinese firms are spectacularly Hierarcial still.
Yeah: too much generalisation on our Eastern chums. China is more a reflection of the oppression inherent in the whole regime.
I like haggis
Posts: 5048
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by I like haggis »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote: Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.
This is the cult of Western business. The hierarchical structures whereby
- the people making the decisions are furthest divorced from the people who pay for the business (the customers)
- anyone with the skills in dealing with customers is promoted away from that position of effectiveness (because it's the only way to climb the ladder to get more money). Except in banks and the Civil Service where you get promoted for sitting around long enough no matter how sh*te you are. In fact, being sh*te is a help in the public sector as you get promoted away from where you can cause litigatory harm.
- and a whole bollox industry has developed around this to deliver pseudo-science solutions on business effectiveness which cost £gazillions and deliver f**k all. The nonsense of the target/metric is a shining example: as soon as the measure is introduced, behaviour is modified to meet the target rather than improve the customer experience/outcome = it usually makes things worse
Not just business, my sister is a primary school teacher and says that bad teachers get promoted to management positions in the school to get them away from teaching because it's easier than firing them. So then bad policies are created and the children's education is badly affected.

I agree with you on metrics introduced to help customer satisfaction, it just means staff work to improve their KPIs rather than improve the product. I worked at a financial start-up and the customer support there was appalling quality but I was the only one in management that cared because the others were only looking at KPIs, eventually the poor quality of support got them in a lot of trouble with the FO.

Poor management is another reason for Britain's productivity being quite low when compared to other Western countries.
pandion
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by pandion »

I like haggis wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Edinburgh01 wrote: Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.
This is the cult of Western business. The hierarchical structures whereby
- the people making the decisions are furthest divorced from the people who pay for the business (the customers)
- anyone with the skills in dealing with customers is promoted away from that position of effectiveness (because it's the only way to climb the ladder to get more money). Except in banks and the Civil Service where you get promoted for sitting around long enough no matter how sh*te you are. In fact, being sh*te is a help in the public sector as you get promoted away from where you can cause litigatory harm.
- and a whole bollox industry has developed around this to deliver pseudo-science solutions on business effectiveness which cost £gazillions and deliver f**k all. The nonsense of the target/metric is a shining example: as soon as the measure is introduced, behaviour is modified to meet the target rather than improve the customer experience/outcome = it usually makes things worse
Not just business, my sister is a primary school teacher and says that bad teachers get promoted to management positions in the school to get them away from teaching because it's easier than firing them. So then bad policies are created and the children's education is badly affected.

I agree with you on metrics introduced to help customer satisfaction, it just means staff work to improve their KPIs rather than improve the product. I worked at a financial start-up and the customer support there was appalling quality but I was the only one in management that cared because the others were only looking at KPIs, eventually the poor quality of support got them in a lot of trouble with the FO.

Poor management is another reason for Britain's productivity being quite low when compared to other Western countries.
Promoting the problem is well known with employment law making it so hard to sack people. Agencies are making a fortune providing the best way around it.
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?
Lorthern Nights

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Lorthern Nights »

c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?
Head of RSSB was on 5Live this morning, they are the regulator on rail/road safety and he was categoric that there were no safety concerns with driver only trains and if anything it is safer having one person rather than multiple in charge of whether the doors etc are clear. No confusion etc etc.

Wouldn't be drawn on the ins and outs of the dispute though.
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?

Not really it's facile, as for believing ASLEF well it's a perfect time of year with Santa and all that.
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?

Not really it's facile, as for believing ASLEF well it's a perfect time of year with Santa and all that.
So why do you believe they are striking?
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

Because if trains are automated from the driver and they cut the door open/ close function the conductors jobs may eventually be at risk, there's plenty of automated trains in the world working perfectly fine, that's a threat to the unions due to potential job cuts.
83010
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Portsmouth

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by 83010 »

I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

Lorthern Nights wrote:
c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?
Head of RSSB was on 5Live this morning, they are the regulator on rail/road safety and he was categoric that there were no safety concerns with driver only trains and if anything it is safer having one person rather than multiple in charge of whether the doors etc are clear. No confusion etc etc.

Wouldn't be drawn on the ins and outs of the dispute though.
Just had a look at that thanks, it is quite interesting that the impartiality of the RSSB has long been questioned apparently.
Interestingly Charles Horton, the chief executive of Govia Thameslink Railway, was involved in the discussions. Horton is listed as a non-executive director of the RSSB.
It would be nice to hear from someone who worked in the industry tbh.
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
No one has said anything like that bimbo. What a silly conflation.
83010
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Portsmouth

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by 83010 »

bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
We have had automatic trains since 1968 in the UK sunshine. There is a reason why there is someone who (still) sits in the front.
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

What's interesting about an industry body set up by railway companies and suppliers having board members from the companies that set them up ?

Twat.
Lorthern Nights

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Lorthern Nights »

c69 wrote:
Lorthern Nights wrote:
c69 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
c69 wrote:Bimbo, when do you feel it would be right for someone to strike?
Surely people have a right to withdraw their labour.

They have the right, employers have the right to make alternatives if union activities risk the business though. Striking over technology advances is nothing new, however he change in tech isn't going to actually go away. A union that is unreasonable eventually forces a change in a far more brutal and inconstructive way costing their members more not less.
I believe that ASLEF claim that they are concerned about safety issues. I have no opinion on the matter and know their are several viewpoints. I for one have not seen them stating they are striking over technology advances, do you have a link?
And it seems they are getting together with ACAS to resolve the issue, lets hope the government put's pressure on the Mangement to get a speedy resolution. The Private Eye piece is quite illuminating don't you think?
Head of RSSB was on 5Live this morning, they are the regulator on rail/road safety and he was categoric that there were no safety concerns with driver only trains and if anything it is safer having one person rather than multiple in charge of whether the doors etc are clear. No confusion etc etc.

Wouldn't be drawn on the ins and outs of the dispute though.
Just had a look at that thanks, it is quite interesting that the impartiality of the RSSB has long been questioned apparently.
Interestingly Charles Horton, the chief executive of Govia Thameslink Railway, was involved in the discussions. Horton is listed as a non-executive director of the RSSB.
It would be nice to hear from someone who worked in the industry tbh.
How long has it been questioned and by who out of interest?

I know nothing of them other than they were the rail regulator which I only knew because of the interview. Matters not a joy to me at the other end of the country.
bimboman
Posts: 67481
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by bimboman »

83010 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
We have had automatic trains since 1968 in the UK sunshine. There is a reason why there is someone who (still) sits in the front.

F uck off.
C69
Posts: 40101
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm
Location: For Wales the Welsh and aproppriate pronouns

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by C69 »

NL just had a quick scan of the 2005 REVIEW OF RAIL SAFETY AND STANDARDS BOARD: REPORT FEBRUARY 2005
It states
for reasons of credibility both within the industry and with the public, this body should be independent of any individual industry company or grouping;
Which may or may not be salient in this case, given the reason for the setting up of the RSSB in the first place.
83010
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Portsmouth

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by 83010 »

bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
We have had automatic trains since 1968 in the UK sunshine. There is a reason why there is someone who (still) sits in the front.

F uck off.

:lol: :lol:

Go and research ECTS and the utter unlikehood of ERTMS, especially level 3.

Two hints. DOO is not really Automation. It is a method of work in the UK since 1984. And I look forward to the day when a mixed traffic non exclusive railway is automatic. It may happen. When i reach 100.
User avatar
Wyndham Upalot
Posts: 2827
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Wyndham Upalot »

From a very simple outside perspective, seems a properly cvntish act from both the union and Southern Rail to inflict this on Joe Public - both named parties are obviously non-caring and driven purely by greed and grandiose need. Cvnts
83010
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Portsmouth

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by 83010 »

That's my yearly visit done.

Happy Christmas
fisgard792
Posts: 4515
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by fisgard792 »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Long ago when I was starting out in consultancy, a wise old partner told me that the way you find out the real issues in a firm is by talking to the people on the shop floor, who usually have a better idea than management and usually have the answers as well. That stood me in good stead throughout my career. But I despaired how many companies seemed to think the best way to deal with an issue was to get senior people who were not involved in the day to day work involved as possible, who then impose a solution on the workers which usually just makes things worse.
jack welsh earned a serious amount of money, creating the revolutionary principle of empowering the thoughts of a guy that did the job for improvements be listened to by management, and brought it under the six sigma concept
User avatar
Chuckles1188
Posts: 40610
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:54 am
Location: Joint No. 3 to Cyprus

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Chuckles1188 »

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... ign=buffer
A troublemaking report from the Centre for Research in Socio-Cultural Change (CRESC) has been upsetting the powerful again. The Great Train Robbery: rail privatisation and after has a great deal to say about the business models that now underpin the disastrous system of rail privatisation in the UK, but it also reveals a pattern that will particularly interest the readers of a politics blog. It shows that the initial vision offered by privatisers of a transparent and democratically accountable set of privatised markets has turned out, in reality, to be something very different: the politics of rail privatisation involves backstairs lobbying, manipulation of the terms of public debate by well resourced private interests and a blurring of the divide between the public and the private.

Some of the problems of the privatised rail system are well known. Perhaps best known is the systematic gaming of the train operating franchise system. Franchisees – as in the catastrophic case of the East Coast Line – can walk away from the franchise without serious penalties when the ludicrously unreal projections that won the contract in the first place turned out to be fantasies. Less known, and systematically documented in the CRESC report, is the extent to which the train operators have been able to manipulate the licensing system so that they effectively pay dividends to shareholders from direct public subsidy; between 1997 and 2012 on the West Coast Mainline, Virgin Trains paid out a total of £500 million in dividends and received a direct subsidy of £2.5 billion.


Worse still, the report highlights the large, hidden and indirect subsidies to train operating companies which have completely wrecked the balance sheet of the quasi-public Network Rail company that provides infrastructure. Train operating company profits are politically constructed through a hidden subsidy of low track access charges levied by Network Rail. These have fallen from £3.2 billion at the start of privatisation to £1.6 billion today, despite the increased demands on the infrastructure made by increased train and passenger numbers: in the age of privatisation the state is keeping the trains running.

The end result is a shocking and largely undiscussed increase in public liabilities. Network Rail (NR) is not only failing to recoup the real cost of operating the infrastructure but also spending an extra £5 billion a year on capital investment in improving the network. This is largely financed by issuing private bonds which are publicly guaranteed. Network Rail’s position is increasingly unsustainable because it is burdened with huge debts. The cost of servicing that debt is now greater than spending on track maintenance: in 2003 NR spent more than £1.5 billion on maintenance and £256 million on debt interest; in 2012 NR spent £968 million on maintenance and over £1.5 billion on debt interest. The financial consequences for the taxpayer are considerable because repayment of principal is publicly guaranteed and Network Rail has an accumulated debt which now stands at £30 billion. The consequences of this kind of financial regime for the physical infrastructure, on which the promise of an efficient rail system crucially rests, are economically catastrophic. The consequences of the accumulated debt burden for the public purse are equally politically dire because rail is going to need a bailout.

At the economic root of this lies a long standing problem about the business model of recovering costs by charging passengers: rail cannot operate without some £10 billion of (direct and indirect) public subsidy because passenger income, even with some of the highest fares in Europe, cannot cover costs. Indeed the importance of passenger revenue has declined under privatisation: in the last ten years of British Rail passenger income averaged just over 64 per cent of total revenue whilst under privatisation’s first ten years it averaged just over 55 per cent. That explains also why the privatised system is more heavily subsidised than was British Rail.

The predatory profits of the Train Operating Companies are a problem, but they are not the most serious part of the problem. Demonising dividends and value extraction by operators like Richard Branson certainly fixes on a problem with the politics of the privatised system. But it is akin to the demonization of individual bankers after the financial crash: it fails to fix on the fundamental faults of the system. The biggest fault is the determination, under the privatised system, to operate a for profit rail network with not enough money in the fare box; and behind that, the business model of charging users which does not capture social functions and external benefits like land and property values. A simple example which anyone can verify from their own experience is the way investment in new public transport lines can transform house prices of property with access to those lines. For instance, the investment in Crossrail, which cost £16 billion, is projected to boost property values within one kilometre of the project by £5.5 billion.

Any attempt to reshape rail policy so as to capture these externalities – for instance via property taxation – will be politically explosive. More insidiously, the whole well organised constellation of interests created by rail privatisation now operates a smoothly oiled lobby so that the Train Operating Companies now define the agenda of reform; that suits them but is not in the public interest. The Association of Train Operating Companies creates a distinctive public narrative: each successive inquiry into the malfunctioning of the system (such as that into the West Coast franchising renewal fiasco) is told as a story of minor glitches in a fundamentally well-functioning machine where the first priority is to get the franchising system back on track. The problem of Network Rail’s debt and the inadequacy of the business model do not figure in public discussion.

At the dawn of privatisation we were promised not only a new business model, but also a new political model: one where backstairs manipulation of policy (for instance by Ministers) would be replaced by the transparency of open contractual competition and public regulation. Instead we have a mixture of crony capitalism, a world populated by well paid lobbyists and well networked insiders, and smoke and mirrors accounting which makes it impossible for normal citizens to penetrate what is going on. In this sense, rail privatisation has indeed proved a model; a model of how things are now done in the post-privatisation state in Britain.
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 29067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Hut 8

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

83010 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
83010 wrote:I can safely that in terms of railways this thread is hilarious.

Automation... :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's your point? That mankind can have automated cars and the complexity that goes,with it but computerising a train is gone our wit?
We have had automatic trains since 1968 in the UK sunshine. There is a reason why there is someone who (still) sits in the front.
But this is not about being driverless but about removing the guard whom the railway is claiming would be redundant (all senses) under their proposals.
Lorthern Nights

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Lorthern Nights »

c69 wrote:NL just had a quick scan of the 2005 REVIEW OF RAIL SAFETY AND STANDARDS BOARD: REPORT FEBRUARY 2005
It states
for reasons of credibility both within the industry and with the public, this body should be independent of any individual industry company or grouping;
Which may or may not be salient in this case, given the reason for the setting up of the RSSB in the first place.
Is that it? You made the claim that the RSSB's impartiality has long been questioned and the only thing you can come up with is a concern raised prior to its existence.
zzzz
Posts: 6587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by zzzz »

Chuckles1188 wrote:http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... ign=buffer
Spoiler: show
[quote]A troublemaking report from the Centre for Research in Socio-Cultural Change (CRESC) has been upsetting the powerful again. The Great Train Robbery: rail privatisation and after has a great deal to say about the business models that now underpin the disastrous system of rail privatisation in the UK, but it also reveals a pattern that will particularly interest the readers of a politics blog. It shows that the initial vision offered by privatisers of a transparent and democratically accountable set of privatised markets has turned out, in reality, to be something very different: the politics of rail privatisation involves backstairs lobbying, manipulation of the terms of public debate by well resourced private interests and a blurring of the divide between the public and the private.

Some of the problems of the privatised rail system are well known. Perhaps best known is the systematic gaming of the train operating franchise system. Franchisees – as in the catastrophic case of the East Coast Line – can walk away from the franchise without serious penalties when the ludicrously unreal projections that won the contract in the first place turned out to be fantasies. Less known, and systematically documented in the CRESC report, is the extent to which the train operators have been able to manipulate the licensing system so that they effectively pay dividends to shareholders from direct public subsidy; between 1997 and 2012 on the West Coast Mainline, Virgin Trains paid out a total of £500 million in dividends and received a direct subsidy of £2.5 billion.


Worse still, the report highlights the large, hidden and indirect subsidies to train operating companies which have completely wrecked the balance sheet of the quasi-public Network Rail company that provides infrastructure. Train operating company profits are politically constructed through a hidden subsidy of low track access charges levied by Network Rail. These have fallen from £3.2 billion at the start of privatisation to £1.6 billion today, despite the increased demands on the infrastructure made by increased train and passenger numbers: in the age of privatisation the state is keeping the trains running.

The end result is a shocking and largely undiscussed increase in public liabilities. Network Rail (NR) is not only failing to recoup the real cost of operating the infrastructure but also spending an extra £5 billion a year on capital investment in improving the network. This is largely financed by issuing private bonds which are publicly guaranteed. Network Rail’s position is increasingly unsustainable because it is burdened with huge debts. The cost of servicing that debt is now greater than spending on track maintenance: in 2003 NR spent more than £1.5 billion on maintenance and £256 million on debt interest; in 2012 NR spent £968 million on maintenance and over £1.5 billion on debt interest. The financial consequences for the taxpayer are considerable because repayment of principal is publicly guaranteed and Network Rail has an accumulated debt which now stands at £30 billion. The consequences of this kind of financial regime for the physical infrastructure, on which the promise of an efficient rail system crucially rests, are economically catastrophic. The consequences of the accumulated debt burden for the public purse are equally politically dire because rail is going to need a bailout.

At the economic root of this lies a long standing problem about the business model of recovering costs by charging passengers: rail cannot operate without some £10 billion of (direct and indirect) public subsidy because passenger income, even with some of the highest fares in Europe, cannot cover costs. Indeed the importance of passenger revenue has declined under privatisation: in the last ten years of British Rail passenger income averaged just over 64 per cent of total revenue whilst under privatisation’s first ten years it averaged just over 55 per cent. That explains also why the privatised system is more heavily subsidised than was British Rail.

The predatory profits of the Train Operating Companies are a problem, but they are not the most serious part of the problem. Demonising dividends and value extraction by operators like Richard Branson certainly fixes on a problem with the politics of the privatised system. But it is akin to the demonization of individual bankers after the financial crash: it fails to fix on the fundamental faults of the system. The biggest fault is the determination, under the privatised system, to operate a for profit rail network with not enough money in the fare box; and behind that, the business model of charging users which does not capture social functions and external benefits like land and property values. A simple example which anyone can verify from their own experience is the way investment in new public transport lines can transform house prices of property with access to those lines. For instance, the investment in Crossrail, which cost £16 billion, is projected to boost property values within one kilometre of the project by £5.5 billion.

Any attempt to reshape rail policy so as to capture these externalities – for instance via property taxation – will be politically explosive. More insidiously, the whole well organised constellation of interests created by rail privatisation now operates a smoothly oiled lobby so that the Train Operating Companies now define the agenda of reform; that suits them but is not in the public interest. The Association of Train Operating Companies creates a distinctive public narrative: each successive inquiry into the malfunctioning of the system (such as that into the West Coast franchising renewal fiasco) is told as a story of minor glitches in a fundamentally well-functioning machine where the first priority is to get the franchising system back on track. The problem of Network Rail’s debt and the inadequacy of the business model do not figure in public discussion.

At the dawn of privatisation we were promised not only a new business model, but also a new political model: one where backstairs manipulation of policy (for instance by Ministers) would be replaced by the transparency of open contractual competition and public regulation. Instead we have a mixture of crony capitalism, a world populated by well paid lobbyists and well networked insiders, and smoke and mirrors accounting which makes it impossible for normal citizens to penetrate what is going on. In this sense, rail privatisation has indeed proved a model; a model of how things are now done in the post-privatisation state in Britain.
[/quote]

The TUC's favorite think tank is paid by the TUC to prepare a report which is jointly written by the TUC.

Entirely co-incidentally it concludes that privatisation hasn't been an unmitigated success.

Taking it at face value:

- the conclusion that the UK railway system can't run without public subsidy is entirely uncontroversial and true.
-The idea there are "predatory profits" for TOCs in the system is complete bollocks. The whole pricing structure of rail franchises means there can't be.
User avatar
Torquemada 1420
Posts: 29067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Hut 8

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by Torquemada 1420 »

zzzz wrote:- the conclusion that the UK railway system can't run without public subsidy is entirely uncontroversial and true.
I'd contend that point but it would need a total overhaul of logistics policy in the UK to remove tonnage from the roads (enforced removal) onto the iron.
backrow
Posts: 22415
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by backrow »

Do other countries have driver only 12 car trains and operate safely ?
Having listened to lots of comrade Union types on the radio I still fail to see their main objection and reason to strike on southern rail (whose deputy ceo also sounded like a nob)
zzzz
Posts: 6587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Southern Rail Strike

Post by zzzz »

Torquemada 1420 wrote:
zzzz wrote:- the conclusion that the UK railway system can't run without public subsidy is entirely uncontroversial and true.
I'd contend that point but it would need a total overhaul of logistics policy in the UK to remove tonnage from the roads (enforced removal) onto the iron.

Don't think it can be done efficiently. Would mean trying to make, and then break, bulk between a small number of large rail depots and then putting everything back on the road again. The country is just too small.
Post Reply