Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

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Anonymous 1
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mick Mannock wrote:As has been mentioned (by Ponti, I think), if Germany has a labour shortfall, why not offer incentives to the young unemployed of Southern Europe? Is it, as he suggested, more an issue of wanting cheap labour?
They have a shortfall in the dirt cheap labour market
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by themaddog »

DAC2016 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:It seems to be a massive political football in Germany, some AFD politician tweeted 2hrs after the attack the suspect was the Tunisian not the poor fella they lifted by mistake. Can't help feeling the police have their hands tied and the subtle censorship is all going to blow up at some point. For all the anti fascism rallies I bet people aren't happy.
What is going on in Germany now is almost the exact opposite of what was going on with Hitler's germany. The sad thing is there is the potential for the end result to be the same.
You are so right. I'm not surprised that it has taken someone with your level of intelligence to make the connection.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by DAC2016 »

themaddog wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:It seems to be a massive political football in Germany, some AFD politician tweeted 2hrs after the attack the suspect was the Tunisian not the poor fella they lifted by mistake. Can't help feeling the police have their hands tied and the subtle censorship is all going to blow up at some point. For all the anti fascism rallies I bet people aren't happy.
What is going on in Germany now is almost the exact opposite of what was going on with Hitler's germany. The sad thing is there is the potential for the end result to be the same.
You are so right. I'm not surprised that it has taken someone with your level of intelligence to make the connection.
:lol:
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Clive »

Well I'm pleased they shot and killed this, what do you call them these days, there is no words suitable for him but nutbar will do for now.
There will be others to replace him of course and it seems weapon of choice is now a HGV lorry no need to smuggle guns or prepare bombs, when you can hijack a truck or steal one.

I think its impossible to stop every crazed person from carrying out these attacks, when there are so many who live their lives under an illusion, where their word of their god is good enough over the rule of law.

The thing that bothers me is they always know who these people are, and yet you can't keep tabs on all of them over lengthy periods of time, due to lack of funding or man power, but it will always be and at a cost of human lives.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by HurricaneWasp »

Clive wrote:Well I'm pleased they shot and killed this, what do you call them these days, there is no words suitable for him but nutbar will do for now.
There will be others to replace him of course and it seems weapon of choice is now a HGV lorry no need to smuggle guns or prepare bombs, when you can hijack a truck or steal one.

I think its impossible to stop every crazed person from carrying out these attacks, when there are so many who live their lives under an illusion, where their word of their god is good enough over the rule of law.

The thing that bothers me is they always know who these people are, and yet you can't keep tabs on all of them over lengthy periods of time, due to lack of funding or man power, but it will always be and at a cost of human lives.
Apparently it takes about 30-40 intelligence officers to safely keep track of one suspect. That is why Germany is struggling so much. They have 5000 potential extremists to monitor. Simply not enough manpower.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by DragsterDriver »

DAC2016 wrote:Needs stronger shelving.
They need to slip goering on top of himmler :)
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by DragsterDriver »

Anonymous. wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:As has been mentioned (by Ponti, I think), if Germany has a labour shortfall, why not offer incentives to the young unemployed of Southern Europe? Is it, as he suggested, more an issue of wanting cheap labour?
They have a shortfall in the dirt cheap labour market
I didn't think many of the current influx were actually working?
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by happyhooker »

DragsterDriver wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:As has been mentioned (by Ponti, I think), if Germany has a labour shortfall, why not offer incentives to the young unemployed of Southern Europe? Is it, as he suggested, more an issue of wanting cheap labour?
They have a shortfall in the dirt cheap labour market
I didn't think many of the current influx were actually working?
There would appear to be openings as intelligence agents
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by DragsterDriver »

happyhooker wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:As has been mentioned (by Ponti, I think), if Germany has a labour shortfall, why not offer incentives to the young unemployed of Southern Europe? Is it, as he suggested, more an issue of wanting cheap labour?
They have a shortfall in the dirt cheap labour market
I didn't think many of the current influx were actually working?
There would appear to be openings as intelligence agents
:lol: :thumbup:
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by theo »

Hmmm.
A spokesman for Germany's interior ministry would not comment on reports in the German media that Amri had been filmed at a mosque in Berlin in the hours after the attack.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by openclashXX »

so before Amri was shot he went from Berlin to France and then Milan, having started from Italy?

death knell for Schengen if the papers make a big enough deal out of it
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by GiorgioXT »

openclashXX wrote:so before Amri was shot he went from Berlin to France and then Milan, having started from Italy?

death knell for Schengen if the papers make a big enough deal out of it
He was in Germany for a couple of year before the massacre.
Anyway , as in the past we haven't seen the palestinian fedajin and mossad death squads wander through Europe disseminating deaths long before Schengen ...
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by bimboman »

GiorgioXT wrote:
openclashXX wrote:so before Amri was shot he went from Berlin to France and then Milan, having started from Italy?

death knell for Schengen if the papers make a big enough deal out of it
He was in Germany for a couple of year before the massacre.
Anyway , as in the past we haven't seen the palestinian fedajin and mossad death squads wander through Europe disseminating deaths long before Schengen ...

Mossad death squads ? :lol:
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by GiorgioXT »

bimboman wrote:
Mossad death squads ? :lol:
Don't you know "Operation "Wrath of God" (Hebrew: מבצע זעם האל‎‎ Mivtza Za'am Ha'el)" ? nearly 20 years of operation.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Heymans »

Politically, the only way out of this is to claim publically that reason and enlightenement values are superior to unsubtntiated religious claim. As long as one must "respect" religion and acknowledge cultural relativism, islam will continue to grow unchallenged.

Islam is restricted in France (lika all religions) but it should be way more. Every mosque should be registered, every imam vetted (you can't preach in french? Out, etc etc).

CUltural relativism and and abject cowardice regarding the nonsense of religion will be the downfall of Europe. The f**king regressive left makes me sick.

Edit: just gonna leave this here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ntegration
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by bimboman »

GiorgioXT wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Mossad death squads ? :lol:
Don't you know "Operation "Wrath of God" (Hebrew: מבצע זעם האל‎‎ Mivtza Za'am Ha'el)" ? nearly 20 years of operation.

Yes, it was more the facile comparison to the terrorist we now have .
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by pontifex »

Heymans wrote:Politically, the only way out of this is to claim publically that reason and enlightenement values are superior to unsubtntiated religious claim. As long as one must "respect" religion and acknowledge cultural relativism, islam will continue to grow unchallenged.

Islam is restricted in France (lika all religions) but it should be way more. Every mosque should be registered, every imam vetted (you can't preach in french? Out, etc etc).

CUltural relativism and and abject cowardice regarding the nonsense of religion will be the downfall of Europe. The f**k regressive left makes me sick.

Edit: just gonna leave this here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ntegration
Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
Last edited by pontifex on Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by fisgard792 »

we go thru this every time there is an atrocity.

the genies is out of the bottle. has been for years, not just last year.

what are you going to with people, who preach hate towards others (irrespective of any faith, including their own) in the community.

most countries, its a near thing, to their human right to do so, anyway.

how are you going to stop people who carry out such actions, on an open message, rather than a direct order

even if you believe there is evidence against them, prior to an attack, can you deport them, where to. what if their originating country doesn't want them
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Rugby2023 »

pontifex wrote:Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
They're getting voted out one by one, their ideology has failed. Common sense rather than wishful thinking now needs to be employed.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by pontifex »

Rugby2023 wrote:
pontifex wrote:Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
They're getting voted out one by one, their ideology has failed. Common sense rather than wishful thinking now needs to be employed.
No they're not. Trump is not European, Brexit is not a political party, and frankly I don't trust the emerging alternative governments in Germany or France with the reigns of democracy (either).
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

Well hopefully someone will think of the children, you hysterical, mincing queens.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by pontifex »

Short Man Syndrome wrote:Well hopefully someone will think of the children, you hysterical, mincing queens.
What? Wrong thread?
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Rugby2023 »

pontifex wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
pontifex wrote:Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
They're getting voted out one by one, their ideology has failed. Common sense rather than wishful thinking now needs to be employed.
No they're not. Trump is not European, Brexit is not a political party, and frankly I don't trust the emerging alternative governments in Germany or France with the reigns of democracy (either).
Trump to one side, there is a clear political shift with Brexit with immigration at its heart. In France, whoever wins both Fillon & Le Pen want to limit immigration and properly address radical Islam within the country. Germany...time will tell, but this is unlikely to be the last incident and the responsive political pattern is clear.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by Heymans »

pontifex wrote:
Heymans wrote:Politically, the only way out of this is to claim publically that reason and enlightenement values are superior to unsubtntiated religious claim. As long as one must "respect" religion and acknowledge cultural relativism, islam will continue to grow unchallenged.

Islam is restricted in France (lika all religions) but it should be way more. Every mosque should be registered, every imam vetted (you can't preach in french? Out, etc etc).

CUltural relativism and and abject cowardice regarding the nonsense of religion will be the downfall of Europe. The f**k regressive left makes me sick.

Edit: just gonna leave this here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ntegration
Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
Germans may be f**king sissies but there's a strong anti theist element in France and the state doesn not hesitate to curtain religious practice at all (see banning of the burqa etc). The situation looks obvioulsy way worse in germany/northern europe. What we need is a revival of anti-theism and agressive secularism. There's a possibility it happens in France, not sure about northern europe.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by bimboman »

So Merkel has promised a speed up of their "repatriation" programme. That's not sounding very progressive. If Farage had said more repatriation it would be called dog whistle politics.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by spookly »

Heymans wrote:
pontifex wrote:
Heymans wrote:Politically, the only way out of this is to claim publically that reason and enlightenement values are superior to unsubtntiated religious claim. As long as one must "respect" religion and acknowledge cultural relativism, islam will continue to grow unchallenged.

Islam is restricted in France (lika all religions) but it should be way more. Every mosque should be registered, every imam vetted (you can't preach in french? Out, etc etc).

CUltural relativism and and abject cowardice regarding the nonsense of religion will be the downfall of Europe. The f**k regressive left makes me sick.

Edit: just gonna leave this here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ntegration
Sadly, none of this will happen while there is still a large and very powerful group who continue to deny that there is a specific, identifiable problem (including just about every European governmental most of the media) and generally compare such actions to new Nazism. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we've missed the window of opportunity for moderate solutions, and that none will be forthcoming. The people in power seem to think they can literally wish it away by being nice and denying the problem, which is why the demos will turn to people who actually have a plan, however reprehensible they suspect those people to be.
Germans may be f**k sissies but there's a strong anti theist element in France and the state doesn not hesitate to curtain religious practice at all (see banning of the burqa etc). The situation looks obvioulsy way worse in germany/northern europe. What we need is a revival of anti-theism and agressive secularism. There's a possibility it happens in France, not sure about northern europe.
I don't think it will happen as easily in Northern Europe. Just look at the political parties they vote for, half of them have Christian in the name.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by pontifex »

One thing that I'm finding very disappointing in Berlin is the fact that people are still letting off very large fireworks and also strings of firecrackers at a very tense time. I've heard machine gun fights in Lebanon, and they're not so different from a distance. The fireworks only become legal to sell around the 28th, but they get imported from Poland early. You would think anyone with a shred of decency would have second thoughts this year, and I hope at least some of the convenience stores show a bit of common decency and refrain from stocking them this New Year. It would be a great indicator that they care about the community they live in.

I had coffee with a Serbian mate of mine today. He lived through the collapse of the Balkans all those years ago, albeit as a teenager. Six months ago he would have gently told me I was being dramatic and too pessimistic. Today he seemed to think that while we're not 'Balkanising' yet, something is up. He also said that things are going badly in the Balkans, with a strong movement in Republika Srpska to join Serbia as well as emerging Albanian separatist movements in Montenegro and Macedonia, and that the Balkan states are all very busy arming themselves to the teeth. He despises the legacy of Milosevic, but he said that ultimately Milosevic won the Yugoslav wars.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by AlanBengio »

openclashXX wrote:so before Amri was shot he went from Berlin to France and then Milan, having started from Italy?

death knell for Schengen if the papers make a big enough deal out of it
TBH this case shows that controls can be effective even without setting up frontiers between EU states again.
Here patrolling was strengthened with particular attention to crossroads (i.e. Stations, Airports, highways - places were people is obliged to go, if they want to move somewhere else).
It is not a case of good luck that this man was caught after three hours he entered the country, by a police patrol instructed to patrol that particular train station area, stopping suspect for identification. Intercepting suspects in the net was exactly their job.
And then, we need an European FBI bureau
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.

Asri "route" in Europe is emblematic on how it works: a young lad (17 years old) with a backround of crimes despite his young age lands italy and he's welcome as a refugee ( asylum-seeker), then he tries right away to burn the camp in Sicily in which he is temporarily accommodated. He is arrested and stays 4 years in prison in Sicily, then...since Tunisia do not consider him as an "accepted citizen" (funny huh?) he is practically set free of moving around Europe and passing from a city to another.. whilst demanding for asylum
Last edited by 0ber0n on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
bimboman
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by bimboman »

I'm also wondering how and why a "Tunisian" was anywhere near an asylum claim. When he turned up in Italy and identified he should have just been bundled onto a boat and driven back.
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by AlanBengio »

0ber0n wrote:@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.
This was a warning our intelligence issued before the Lybian bombing - i.e. That the fall of Gaddafi would have meant massive influx of illegal immigrants including extremisms in Europe.
The warning was not taken into consideration by politicians (as usual).
There is nothing we can do now to close that border - the ones who created the mess are not in charge anymore, and the plan to sent the Army there to control the place like we did in Albania was not taken seriously into consideration by Renzi.
What do we do then?
We shoot every illegal immigrant reaching our shores seeking asylum?
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.
This was a warning our intelligence issued before the Lybian bombing - i.e. That the fall of Gaddafi would have meant massive influx of illegal immigrants including extremisms in Europe.
The warning was not taken into consideration by politicians (as usual).
There is nothing we can do now to close that border - the ones who created the mess are not in charge anymore, and the plan to sent the Army there to control the place like we did in Albania was not taken seriously into consideration by Renzi.
What do we do then?
We shoot every illegal immigrant reaching our shores seeking asylum?
at least we should consider their status before setting them free.. and if they are not accepted as refugees, expecially if they have a background of criminal activities, we should (as Europe) bring them back to their country
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

bimboman wrote:I'm also wondering how and why a "Tunisian" was anywhere near an asylum claim. When he turned up in Italy and identified he should have just been bundled onto a boat and driven back.
80% of illegal immigrants (all labelled as refugees) in Italy cannot claim any asylum status...yet once they arrive in Europe they are free of moving anywhere whilst their request is examined (and they can also appeal). The whole process could last years in a country, not to mention that this does not mean that you can start over the request in another country...
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by AlanBengio »

0ber0n wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.
This was a warning our intelligence issued before the Lybian bombing - i.e. That the fall of Gaddafi would have meant massive influx of illegal immigrants including extremisms in Europe.
The warning was not taken into consideration by politicians (as usual).
There is nothing we can do now to close that border - the ones who created the mess are not in charge anymore, and the plan to sent the Army there to control the place like we did in Albania was not taken seriously into consideration by Renzi.
What do we do then?
We shoot every illegal immigrant reaching our shores seeking asylum?
at least we should consider their status before setting them free.. and if they are not accepted as refugees, expecially if they have a background of criminal activities, we should (as Europe) bring them back to their country
I think this is what we do already - but then there is the people with no documents (like this pig shoot by the police); Tunisia did not want him back because we could not prove he was from Tunisia.
He served his prison terms - we could not send him back anywhere; and it was not proved he was a terrorist - just a displaced person, who was identified accordingly.
Should we smuggle all these people sans papier to the next African country as well?
Problems are not so simple in this topic

Edit: the main error was made at the beginning - the bombing of Lybia.
It was one of the few things Berlusconi got right - but was laughed at by his fellow Europeans and US leaders

The same ones that now want to give lessons about how to solve the mess they created
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.
This was a warning our intelligence issued before the Lybian bombing - i.e. That the fall of Gaddafi would have meant massive influx of illegal immigrants including extremisms in Europe.
The warning was not taken into consideration by politicians (as usual).
There is nothing we can do now to close that border - the ones who created the mess are not in charge anymore, and the plan to sent the Army there to control the place like we did in Albania was not taken seriously into consideration by Renzi.
What do we do then?
We shoot every illegal immigrant reaching our shores seeking asylum?
at least we should consider their status before setting them free.. and if they are not accepted as refugees, expecially if they have a background of criminal activities, we should (as Europe) bring them back to their country
I think this is what we do already - but then there is the people with no documents (like this pig shoot by the police); Tunisia did not want him back because we could not prove he was from Tunisia.
He served his prison terms - we could not send him back anywhere; and it was not proved he was a terrorist - just a displaced person, who was identified accordingly.
Should we smuggle all these people sans papier to the next African country as well?
Problems are not so simple in this topic

Edit: the main error was made at the beginning - the bombing of Lybia.
It was one of the few things Berlusconi got right - but was laughed at by his fellow Europeans and US leaders

The same ones that now want to give lessons about how to solve the mess they created
Although I totally agree with you on the bombing of Libya (and of other countries in the middle-east), I can't help but notice the contraddiction on your words (sorry Alan): taking care of any illegal immigrants that land in Italy (or Europe) because we are "human" is not exactly the same as keeping Gheddafi regime in place. If you remember refugee camps in Libya were not exactly a place for human-rights for African and Asian immigrants...so see...as you said, things are a bit more complicated as they may appear in this topic
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AlanBengio
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by AlanBengio »

0ber0n wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
0ber0n wrote:@Alan

It was just a matter of luck. I am not saying the such controls did not prove to be useful also in the past like this time (recall the two red brigades members that got caught in a train control years ago). But the problem is at the source: if every day 1000 illegal immigrants (that is way they should be called before labelling them refugees whatsoever) freely enter in Italy (or better ar accompanied by boats from all over Europe) then thinking of an "European" Fbi is like discussing on how to stop a flood with buckets. Entering Italy is like having a free passport for all of Europe: this is a fact.
This was a warning our intelligence issued before the Lybian bombing - i.e. That the fall of Gaddafi would have meant massive influx of illegal immigrants including extremisms in Europe.
The warning was not taken into consideration by politicians (as usual).
There is nothing we can do now to close that border - the ones who created the mess are not in charge anymore, and the plan to sent the Army there to control the place like we did in Albania was not taken seriously into consideration by Renzi.
What do we do then?
We shoot every illegal immigrant reaching our shores seeking asylum?
at least we should consider their status before setting them free.. and if they are not accepted as refugees, expecially if they have a background of criminal activities, we should (as Europe) bring them back to their country
I think this is what we do already - but then there is the people with no documents (like this pig shoot by the police); Tunisia did not want him back because we could not prove he was from Tunisia.
He served his prison terms - we could not send him back anywhere; and it was not proved he was a terrorist - just a displaced person, who was identified accordingly.
Should we smuggle all these people sans papier to the next African country as well?
Problems are not so simple in this topic

Edit: the main error was made at the beginning - the bombing of Lybia.
It was one of the few things Berlusconi got right - but was laughed at by his fellow Europeans and US leaders

The same ones that now want to give lessons about how to solve the mess they created
Although I totally agree with you on the bombing of Libya (and of other countries in the middle-east), I can't help but notice the contraddiction on your words (sorry Alan): taking care of any illegal immigrants that land in Italy (or Europe) because we are "human" is not exactly the same as keeping Gheddafi regime in place. If you remember refugee camps in Libya were not exactly a place for human-rights for African and Asian immigrants...so see...as you said, things are a bit more complicated as they may appear in this topic
I would support a military mission in Lybia - EU one of Italian one, like the one we made in Albania.
There are detalied plan for such scenario
They could get the mission paid by part of Lybian petrol selling rights for a while - until complete stabilization of the country
That's a very first step to be done
0ber0n
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

AlanBengio wrote: I would support a military mission in Lybia - EU one of Italian one, like the one we made in Albania.
There are detalied plan for such scenario
They could get the mission paid by part of Lybian petrol selling rights for a while - until complete stabilization of the country
That's a very first step to be done
Yea...but I think this is utterly utopic (if not naif) in short terms...if we do not act strict policies on immigrations the situation is going to explode in much closer times
0ber0n
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by 0ber0n »

0ber0n wrote:
AlanBengio wrote: I would support a military mission in Lybia - EU one of Italian one, like the one we made in Albania.
There are detalied plan for such scenario
They could get the mission paid by part of Lybian petrol selling rights for a while - until complete stabilization of the country
That's a very first step to be done
Yea...but I think this is utterly utopic (if not naif) in short terms...if we do not act strict policies on immigrations the situation is going to explode in much closer times
not to mention that even if you closed Libyia path, then what about Egypt or Tunisia or Turkey??
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HurricaneWasp
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by HurricaneWasp »

bimboman wrote:I'm also wondering how and why a "Tunisian" was anywhere near an asylum claim. When he turned up in Italy and identified he should have just been bundled onto a boat and driven back.
He pretended to be an Egyptian fleeing danger in the fallout of the Arab Spring. That's what many of them do. Pretend to be another nationality.

As said previously, he was never identified because he destroyed his identification papers. That is another very common tactic. In the end, the migrants know that they will get into Europe if they wait for long enough without answering any questions about nationality.
derriz
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Re: Truck rampages through crowd at Berlin Christmas market

Post by derriz »

0ber0n wrote:
bimboman wrote:I'm also wondering how and why a "Tunisian" was anywhere near an asylum claim. When he turned up in Italy and identified he should have just been bundled onto a boat and driven back.
80% of illegal immigrants (all labelled as refugees) in Italy cannot claim any asylum status...yet once they arrive in Europe they are free of moving anywhere whilst their request is examined (and they can also appeal). The whole process could last years in a country, not to mention that this does not mean that you can start over the request in another country...
Where do you get this number? Taking last years numbers, only 20% of asylum applicants in Italy are rejected. For Germany almost 90% are rejected. And, following stereotype, the Germans are the most active in shipping the failed applicants back. This is any easy way to recognize a bullshitter - if you hear Germany being described as having an "open door policy".

Tunisia is on the "safe country" list for many EU countries which means an immediate rejection of asylum application - although most have an appeal process which can drag on for years. So one problem is inconsistencies across the EU but of course any attempt to harmonize the rules riles up the europhobes. The 2nd problem is that repatriation is not simple - clearly applicants can lie about their country of origin and countries are understandably unwilling to accept hoards of rejected applicants without proof. Often countries have to be effectively bribed to take them back - like with the Afghanistan deal this year.

Despite being labeled an SJW earlier in the thread I am in favor of draconian measures for failed applicants like this prick if they make repatriation difficult by lying - no objection to locking them up until they can be deported.

On the other hand I believe we have an obligation as human beings to offer refuge to fellow human beings fleeing war zones and political persecution and I don't think anyone can claim that Syria isn't a war zone where civilians are being killed in large numbers
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