Planet Rugby Forum

Fat Albert wrote:Oh and

Mike Ford to Tigers next...with John Wells returning as his assistant...

Kiwi big name to tigers, Cockhead to Ulster.

finally. Made a great club bang average. I think I could've done a better job myself.

Anybody got Deano's number?

I can be very persuasive. maybe not that persuasive[/size]

We'll have him at Worcester.

terryfinch wrote:We'll have him at Worcester.

Step down from his perspective but might relish the challenge

Mail reporting:

Informed sources on Monday night suggested Cockerill had been ousted after what amounted to a player coup, with senior members of the squad informing the board that it was high time for a change.

There was disharmony between Cockerill and his head coach Aaron Mauger, two very different characters who had apparently long since realised they did not see eye-to-eye.

It is understood that Mauger, an ex-All Black and former Leicester centre, made it known that he was unable to work with Cockerill. One source claimed that after defeat against Wasps at Welford Road in September, Cockerill was in the midst of a post-match rant in the dressing room when Mauger, who favours a more softly-softly approach, asked him to leave.

Among the players, there had been a growing realisation that the status quo could not survive. It is thought that there are many members of the Leicester squad who have been aligned with Cockerill and others more inclined to side with Mauger in what became a clash of cultures.

openclashXX wrote:Mail reporting:

Informed sources on Monday night suggested Cockerill had been ousted after what amounted to a player coup, with senior members of the squad informing the board that it was high time for a change.

There was disharmony between Cockerill and his head coach Aaron Mauger, two very different characters who had apparently long since realised they did not see eye-to-eye.

It is understood that Mauger, an ex-All Black and former Leicester centre, made it known that he was unable to work with Cockerill. One source claimed that after defeat against Wasps at Welford Road in September, Cockerill was in the midst of a post-match rant in the dressing room when Mauger, who favours a more softly-softly approach, asked him to leave.

Among the players, there had been a growing realisation that the status quo could not survive. It is thought that there are many members of the Leicester squad who have been aligned with Cockerill and others more inclined to side with Mauger in what became a clash of cultures.

Probably stating the bleeding obvious; but putting Cockerill & Mauger together in a management team, when they are apparently so diametrically different personalities, & then letting it get to this point, doesn't reflect well on the people who've now sacked Cockerill.

openclashXX wrote:Mail reporting:

Informed sources on Monday night suggested Cockerill had been ousted after what amounted to a player coup, with senior members of the squad informing the board that it was high time for a change.

There was disharmony between Cockerill and his head coach Aaron Mauger, two very different characters who had apparently long since realised they did not see eye-to-eye.

It is understood that Mauger, an ex-All Black and former Leicester centre, made it known that he was unable to work with Cockerill. One source claimed that after defeat against Wasps at Welford Road in September, Cockerill was in the midst of a post-match rant in the dressing room when Mauger, who favours a more softly-softly approach, asked him to leave.

Among the players, there had been a growing realisation that the status quo could not survive. It is thought that there are many members of the Leicester squad who have been aligned with Cockerill and others more inclined to side with Mauger in what became a clash of cultures.

If true it strikes me that his leaving, one way or another, was utterly unavoidable.

So a number of players who backed Cockers aren't going to be too chuffed their horse lost that race.

Chuckles1188 wrote:

terryfinch wrote:We'll have him at Worcester.

Step down from his perspective but might relish the challenge

I doubt there would be anything open to him that would not be a step down from most peoples perspective. However landing a job a Worcester would be about the top end (probably above it) of what he could expect.

Raggs wrote:So a number of players who backed Cockers aren't going to be too chuffed their horse lost that race.

I doubt there will be a problem. The squad (fudge this group crap) will probably be glad one of them has gone.

redderneck wrote:

DragsterDriver wrote:

redderneck wrote:He was gracious (not a word which perhaps springs to mind very often when you think of the man) when his side put Axel's Munster to the sword last year and offered a reminder when Axel was under the cosh from the media and fans that it's a hell of a sticky wicket to occupy. Whatever about his abilities as a coach, he struck me as a no-nonsense rugby man and a one-club man at that, which for me, is still something to be admired.

Not good seeing clubs hacking away at themselves in this way. Especially the great ones, and they are that.

He's not a one club man and he's an arsehat.

I knew he has played a few seasons in France before returning to Tigers, but had not realised he hadn't started with them. See he had a season with Coventry in his early days. Still - I'd class a man who has given 23 of 26 years to one club as 'to his core'. Clearly I'm not as picky as you.

And I still think it's a shit scene when clubs hack away at themselves like this.

He was a Coventry boy, schooled and played for the city before he left for Leicester. I played against him in the late 80's when he was a Cov player. He was combative then to say the least. My best friend at Uni was a Cov Colts player as well and told me a story about Cockerill. A new hooker turned up at training and had the audacity to take one against the head. Scrum broke up, Cockers head butted the hooker and told him in no uncertain terms not to do it again.

12 years is a long time in any one club as a coach. If you don't reinvent yourself or adapt to changes in the game the club has to make a call. It shouldn't be used as a way in staying in the same club for life.

eldanielfire wrote:i often find it funny people somehow always think great players become great coaches when it is one of the strongest negative trends I can think of, especially in team sports.

It's ingrained in France. Players become coaches the day they retire without any meaningful training for the role. The effects are clear in somewhere like Toulouse where Elissalde got the backs and Servat the fwds.

He should become a ref with his extensive knowledge of the Laws of the game.

Chuckles1188 wrote:

openclashXX wrote:Mail reporting:

Informed sources on Monday night suggested Cockerill had been ousted after what amounted to a player coup, with senior members of the squad informing the board that it was high time for a change.

There was disharmony between Cockerill and his head coach Aaron Mauger, two very different characters who had apparently long since realised they did not see eye-to-eye.

It is understood that Mauger, an ex-All Black and former Leicester centre, made it known that he was unable to work with Cockerill. One source claimed that after defeat against Wasps at Welford Road in September, Cockerill was in the midst of a post-match rant in the dressing room when Mauger, who favours a more softly-softly approach, asked him to leave.

Among the players, there had been a growing realisation that the status quo could not survive. It is thought that there are many members of the Leicester squad who have been aligned with Cockerill and others more inclined to side with Mauger in what became a clash of cultures.

If true it strikes me that his leaving, one way or another, was utterly unavoidable.

Although the board has been well aware of the Cockers Problem he has nevertheless managed to avoid leaving for at least three years, to my knowledge. Despite the lack of any definitive progress on the field the board has nevertheless been unwilling to dispense with somebody who embodies the club's almost theological belief in the 'Tigers Way' (whatever the farck that actually is) and who, in fairness, is an extremely conscientious employee. Leicester's long established preference for home grown coaches at all levels (which goes all the way back to Chalky White) and a number of relative failures with imports, granted Cockerill a latitude that would certainly not have been available to other brought in DoRs.

It was broadly accepted that atrocious misfortune with injuries (whilst some were due to sheer bad luck, the persistent volume might also have been due to poor player management) have clearly undermined consistency and team development and allowances were made for that. It has also been the case, up to now, that whenever patience was wearing thin performances were ultimately turned round sufficiently to maintain the illusion of a bright future. The annual late battle into the domestic pay-offs inevitably provided a fig leaf of success and the hope that a couple of shiny new signings and better luck with injuries would provide a springboard to press on to the summit next season.

When this never actually materialised, and with a general reluctance to ruthlessly dispense with a loyal servant (and a half decent forward coach), Mauger came on board in the expectation that he might ameliorate the negative aspects of Cockerill's management style and 'modernise' Tigers' evidently limited playing structure. The idea that an old Tiger might be able to blend the best of the old and new was not a bad one but Cocker is a stubborn and proud man - often quite difficult - and Mauger was never really allowed to impose himself or his ideas on the team. A first teamer told me over 18 months ago that a large clique of them regarded Cockerill as something of a figure of fun, and with him being unwilling to fade into a background role his status became increasingly uncertain. With the cheque book reluctantly opened for this season he was given a final chance to turn things around, but shocking early away results - with even the mystical Tigers Way nowhere in evidence - and an increasingly poor working relationship with Mauger effectively doomed him. It was then pretty much a question of timing.

Most of the team expected him to be gone after the Munster thrashing but, fearing too much disruption, he was retained for the return game which gave him a limited stay of execution. A new nadir at Exeter gave the board little choice and, not being heartless plums, they merely deferred the axe until after Christmas. A win over Sarries would not have saved him, though for the sake of decorum they might still have delayed until after an anticipated defeat at Wasps. I think Cockerill knew the game was up, and though he made all the right noises he appeared to be almost reconciled to his fate and seemed to practically demob happy of late.

Leicester expected much and gave Cockerill every opportunity and plenty of resources to provide it; he unarguably failed for a club that expects and demands - perhaps not entirely realistically in the modern world of the cavernous cheque book - routine success. Their own coffers are now very depleted and Mauger is going to have to coach pretty well what he's got to provide evidence that he is the man to finally transform Leicester into an all court team. Cockers will certainly be mourned by some, he's been very generous with his consistent support of some players (sometimes to the overall detriment of the team) but I think that the general reaction will mostly be one of relief.

Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

Chuckles1188 wrote:Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

You should go for the job chuckles, your rugby nous is becoming legendary

Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

fisgard792 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

You should go for the job chuckles, your rugby nous is becoming legendary

Strange comment

In the short term, you'd think we would have to get someone in to work with the forwards, at least temporarily

The remaining coaches are Mauger, Murphy, and Blaze. Mauger and Murphy's expertise obviously lie with the back line, and Blaze is a very young coach (only 31) and is more of a line-out specialist if anything I believe.

pandion wrote:Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

Some of the conditioning staff has been dispensed with due to financial constraints.

Selim The Sot wrote:

pandion wrote:Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

Some of the conditioning staff has been dispensed with due to financial constraints.

How are Tigers managing to struggle financially such that they have to dispose of staff? I always thought they were one of the few solvent clubs?

Brazil wrote:

Selim The Sot wrote:

pandion wrote:Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

Some of the conditioning staff has been dispensed with due to financial constraints.

How are Tigers managing to struggle financially such that they have to dispose of staff? I always thought they were one of the few solvent clubs?

They are, but they don't have a billionaire pumping money into the club and racking up huge club debts in the process. They have to live strictly within their means, which are being squeezed and squeezed as some clubs milk their sugar daddies and the salary cap continually rises, forcing Tigers to try and keep with the pace by spending elsewhere.

Making Manu (briefly) a record earner in English rugby probably didn't do their books much good either

Selim The Sot wrote:

pandion wrote:Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

Some of the conditioning staff has been dispensed with due to financial constraints.

Hmm yet they keep Manu Croft though they're long term crocked. Is that Cockers loyalty or bad management? Who is in charge of recruitment and contract renewals, the board or DOR?

Chuckles1188 wrote:

fisgard792 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

You should go for the job chuckles, your rugby nous is becoming legendary

Strange comment

Not especially when your comments rings like someone who has just spoken to some blokes in the pub who watches rugby in the mid-90s (when even then there were some top class backs at Leicester). Tigers under Cockerell have topped the try scoring charts a number of times on their way to winning premiership - to suggest "boring boring Leicester" requires you not only to show ignorance but actively ignore large swathes of his tenure to satisfy the Cockerill echo chamber on here.

The "Leicester Way" is more symptomatic of a bloody mindedness on field which doesn't tolerate loss well - we have seemingly lost that rather than a consistent drive for the top 2.

I'm unsure this is the right decision for now - but am glad some action was one way or another taken as we really are not getting the most out of our players where we once used to.

Chuckles1188 wrote:Making Manu (briefly) a record earner in English rugby probably didn't do their books much good either

Because losing our bet home grown players would help us on field...

kornboy130 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

fisgard792 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

You should go for the job chuckles, your rugby nous is becoming legendary

Strange comment

Not especially when your comments rings like someone who has just spoken to some blokes in the pub who watches rugby in the mid-90s (when even then there were some top class backs at Leicester). Tigers under Cockerell have topped the try scoring charts a number of times on their way to winning premiership - to suggest "boring boring Leicester" requires you not only to show ignorance but actively ignore large swathes of his tenure to satisfy the Cockerill echo chamber on here.

The "Leicester Way" is more symptomatic of a bloody mindedness on field which doesn't tolerate loss well - we have seemingly lost that rather than a consistent drive for the top 2.

I'm unsure this is the right decision for now - but am glad some action was one way or another taken as we really are not getting the most out of our players where we once used to.

So the Leicester Way, fabled in song and story, is wanting to win games really really badly.

By the way, Leicester have topped the try-scoring charts and won the premiership in the same season exactly once under Cockerill. And the second time he won it they came in with a magisterial 46 tries, or two less than Wasps have scored halfway through this season. The stats don't exactly scream "all-singing all-dancing backline"

BurrowHill wrote:

Brazil wrote:

Selim The Sot wrote:

pandion wrote:Surely player welfare is down to the medical and conditioning staff?

Some of the conditioning staff has been dispensed with due to financial constraints.

How are Tigers managing to struggle financially such that they have to dispose of staff? I always thought they were one of the few solvent clubs?

They are, but they don't have a billionaire pumping money into the club and racking up huge club debts in the process. They have to live strictly within their means, which are being squeezed and squeezed as some clubs milk their sugar daddies and the salary cap continually rises, forcing Tigers to try and keep with the pace by spending elsewhere.

Ah right, take your point.

Never been a fan of cockers but his treatment appears fairly shabby, albeit on the basis that his private antics with the team were just as bad as his public rants.

guys like Croft and Tuilagi have been kept on reasonably large salaries despite delivering f*ck all over the past few years, there was the mismanagement of George Ford in favour of Toby Flood (who then f*cked off anyway), there's been signings like Jean de Villiers and JP Pietersen who were past their prime two World Cups ago let alone in 2016, some really odd signings like Opeti Fonua and those two French blokes Mele and Schuster (sp?), the constant chopping and changing at fly-half between Burns and Williams

the best signing for Tigers over the past few seasons is probably Veainu and that strikes me as one that Mauger made through his NZ links rather than Cockers, other than that it's been largely below-par or past-their-prime players with the odd permacrock thrown in

not really an issue if their academy was churning out players to compensate but Tigers' relationship with their academy has been tragic for a number of years

kornboy130 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

fisgard792 wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:Good account Selim, though I obviously have no way of evaluating what percentage of it is true. It certainly has much of the ring of truth to it.

The Tigers Way, though. Would it be entirely unfair to suggest that it might possibly amount to little more than "girly backs are there to tackle, field kicks and kick for points, we win by beating people up"?

You should go for the job chuckles, your rugby nous is becoming legendary

Strange comment

Not especially when your comments rings like someone who has just spoken to some blokes in the pub who watches rugby in the mid-90s (when even then there were some top class backs at Leicester). Tigers under Cockerell have topped the try scoring charts a number of times on their way to winning premiership - to suggest "boring boring Leicester" requires you not only to show ignorance but actively ignore large swathes of his tenure to satisfy the Cockerill echo chamber on here.

The "Leicester Way" is more symptomatic of a bloody mindedness on field which doesn't tolerate loss well - we have seemingly lost that rather than a consistent drive for the top 2.

I'm unsure this is the right decision for now - but am glad some action was one way or another taken as we really are not getting the most out of our players where we once used to.

i dont think we have the players, to get the most out of

we've not got much return from the academy in recent years, dusty to saints, wtf

too many in the setup believe it is a right to win games at WR or win trophies

mauger is no pat howard, (albeit the game has moved on in the last 10 or so years)

Chuckles1188 wrote:So the Leicester Way, fabled in song and story, is wanting to win games really really badly.

By the way, Leicester have topped the try-scoring charts and won the premiership in the same season exactly once under Cockerill. And the second time he won it they came in with a magisterial 46 tries, or two less than Wasps have scored halfway through this season. The stats don't exactly scream "all-singing all-dancing backline"

Honestly that's slightly less ridiculous than your initial assertion - and you've made this as an oh so insightful quip. Let me answer your initial question directly - no it would not be fair to label the "Leicester Way" as you had because it isn't supported by evidence.

Different team environments have different tolerances for loss and different attitudes regarding openness about failure, being straight talking etc etc - Leicester classically has been towards the harder end of this.

I don't have time right this second to check the try scoring charts from year to year but will do later - though I believe in the Matt O'Connor years we topped it twice(?) Or atleast were pretty competitive in that area or not off the pace.

As for the comparison with Wasps this year - what even is the point of that comparison? If you can only support your point by selecting one historic year against another teams current year statistics which are of exactly no relevance then you've been spending too much time on the "post fact" threads on here.

Thacker and Roberts both appear to be good value.

I thought we were talking about Cockerill. Obviously it would be ridiculous to disparage the Tigers of the Richards era for being mindless boshers.

doubt Thacker will stick around- off to Worcester apparently

plum-pudding wrote:doubt Thacker will stick around- off to Worcester apparently

Hah! Naturally.

openclashXX wrote:guys like Croft and Tuilagi have been kept on reasonably large salaries despite delivering f*ck all over the past few years, there was the mismanagement of George Ford in favour of Toby Flood (who then f*cked off anyway), there's been signings like Jean de Villiers and JP Pietersen who were past their prime two World Cups ago let alone in 2016, some really odd signings like Opeti Fonua and those two French blokes Mele and Schuster (sp?), the constant chopping and changing at fly-half between Burns and Williams

the best signing for Tigers over the past few seasons is probably Veainu and that strikes me as one that Mauger made through his NZ links rather than Cockers, other than that it's been largely below-par or past-their-prime players with the odd permacrock thrown in

not really an issue if their academy was churning out players to compensate but Tigers' relationship with their academy has been tragic for a number of years

I thought Mele put in a decent enough stint at Leicester? And he was hardly big budget material any more than Shuster would have been although the latter was an odd one: did he play more than a handful of games?

Looks like this is a "throwaway" year for Tiggers. I bet the "re-building" card will be played soon.

All clubs, back into eternity, go through this.