Incident outside Parliament

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paneer
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by paneer »

The Muslim Council need to condemn wahabism on TV and then admit that Islam is at a crossroads and needs to evolve to the modern world.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Anonymous 1 »

DAC2016 wrote:islam has been at war with the West since it's inception. It's a supremacy thing and it will not stop until all the world is one great big stinking ummah.

It's entirely fascist and entirely racist and all it understands is strength.

I'm talking about the ideology here, not Mr and Mrs Khan from number 42.
I do not disagree
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by TranceNRG »

paneer wrote:The Muslim Council need to condemn wahabism on TV and then admit that Islam is at a crossroads and needs to evolve to the modern world.
Somehow I don't see that happening. It's going directly against Quran and many muslims including 'moderates' will riot against that. People like Maajid Nawaz are already regarded as apostates and receive death threats.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by paneer »

Anonymous. wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:islam has been at war with the West since it's inception. It's a supremacy thing and it will not stop until all the world is one great big stinking ummah.

It's entirely fascist and entirely racist and all it understands is strength.

I'm talking about the ideology here, not Mr and Mrs Khan from number 42.
I do not disagree
And do either of you have a suggestion to tackle this problem other then the facebook profile picture method
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by sewa »

blindcider wrote:
What she is doing is creating even greater levels of mistrust, division, and spreading hatred.

Her words may not cause immediate damage but when she gets inordinate publicity for this stuff it is just even more ammunition for the radicals to use to justify their own hatred.
Agreed, I am sure when the IRA bombed Britain the same sort of people blamed all Irish when most of us were equally disgusted and appalled by the bombings.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Bullettyme »

DAC2016 wrote:
Bullettyme wrote:
Nolanator wrote:Can we just ban Wahhabist doctrine?
I think this would seem like an obvious road to take, although I would imagine it would impinge on religious freedoms guaranteed by law and constitutionality. Wahhabism and Salafism at their cores are really an attempt to get back to the roots of Islam, I've talked to a few Salafis before on a flight from Dubai to Dublin and they were really quite benign, friendly guys who said they spent most of their time giving talks and offering guidance.

You're talking about banning the Sunni side of islam. :lol:

Yeah, best of luck with that.
No I'm not.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by DAC2016 »

The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
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paneer
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by paneer »

We will hit this crossroads in Sweden. I wonder what our new migrants make of liberal tv adds like this new one from the rail company https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9BjL7TELNM
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Ghost-Of-Nepia »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
blackblackblack wrote:It is what it is Sneaker, you don't get to be SOS without a concerted effort over a prolonged period.
You're in charge. You'd be very surprised if you met him I suspect. A better rugby man it would be hard to find
You've just made Globus very angry indeed.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

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backrow wrote: Many people , myself included, do think (the official community types like the council and sadiq) Muslims in U.K. Could be seen to do more in the aftermath of such events, and even more importantly, before they bloody well happen.
Where to you think Kr Khan went wrong in the past and what events are you talking about ?
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by blindcider »

DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Silver »

backrow wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
backrow wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
SamShark wrote:I know, I know, "why do you read it" etc, but I've just read Katie Hopkins Daily Mail rant on this, and the stupidity - the sheer idiocy - is just beyond belief.

She fires off her usual stuff mocking hashtags and vigils, then goes into this bizarre rant about a Muslim mayor of London and England now being a country of sensible people vs knob heads living in London who love multiculturalism even though she (and other sensible people) know that multiculturalism is evil.

She suggests today's attack is now an everyday occurrence.

She criticises anyone who says "we won't be beaten by terror" (we are beaten according to her) but offers not a single solution. Not one idea - just a sort of "down with the left" sentiment, knowing full well her readers will join the dots.

And underneath the article, people are saying "well said Katie" and "deport them all".

If that's the best that she can do then FFS.....pathetic. Imagine simply/exclusively getting paid to stir up hate.

The irony of a rant against fundamentalism from someone with an essentially fundamental stance is lost on most, unfortunately.
Exactly

Odd post from Sam, he seems to be more upset with Katie Hopkins than the chap with the tan and the beard who killed people yesterday. She is just being paid to write contentious provocative stuff, doing it rather well it seems.

She is just doing a Jeremy clarkson and getting herself a persona to shift some papers, her words are far less damaging than a hyundai bumper.

The relative silence of sadiq Khan, Muslim council of Britain , Somalian embassy etc also speaks volumes to some.
Both Khan and Muslim council of Britain condemned the attack I believe. Not sure what else you want them to do?
Sadiq was hours later and after BBC had showed news feeds from France, Netherlands , euro council, Australia , Canada to name but few. LBC mentioned how lame and late his response was (although nick fearrari is pretty right of centre it has to be said)

Many people , myself included, do think (the official community types like the council and sadiq) Muslims in U.K. Could be seen to do more in the aftermath of such events, and even more importantly, before they bloody well happen.
WTF was going on with him

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/782655 ... khan-mayor

Sadiq Khan FINALLY responds to London terror attack after being slammed for ‘silence'
MAYOR of London Sadiq Khan has responded to the London terror attack, vowing Londoners "will not be cowed by terrorism" after being criticised for his "deafening silence" after five people were killed in Westminster.

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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Nolanator »

blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Silver »

Anonymous. wrote:
backrow wrote: Many people , myself included, do think (the official community types like the council and sadiq) Muslims in U.K. Could be seen to do more in the aftermath of such events, and even more importantly, before they bloody well happen.
Where to you think Kr Khan went wrong in the past and what events are you talking about ?
silly statements like this don't help

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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by blindcider »

Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Silver »

blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
agree. A first step otherwise the future will likely be much worse
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Chuckles1188 »

It makes me happy thinking about the perpetual cycle of disappointment the radical right must go through whenever there's an attack on London. Initial excitement that public opinion will finally turn to embrace them wholeheartedly, followed by the realisation that Londoners are, for the most part, deeply blasé about terrorist attacks on their city.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by TranceNRG »

blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
Stop the spread of Islam? Yes yes I know it's controversial..
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Silver wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:
backrow wrote: Many people , myself included, do think (the official community types like the council and sadiq) Muslims in U.K. Could be seen to do more in the aftermath of such events, and even more importantly, before they bloody well happen.
Where to you think Kr Khan went wrong in the past and what events are you talking about ?
silly statements like this don't help

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You really are serious about this out of context comment taken from an old article. :blush:
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by blindcider »

TranceNRG wrote:
Stop the spread of Islam? Yes yes I know it's controversial..
Remind me of how well attempts to suppress religions have worked in the past.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Bullettyme »

Man In Black wrote:
That certainly worked for Germany, Belgium and Spain. :thumbup:
All had troops in Afghanistan at one point. Spain in Iraq. All part of the coalition against ISIS.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by JM2K6 »

Man In Black wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
That certainly worked for Germany, Belgium and Spain. :thumbup:
?

Belgium's history in Africa is pretty interesting, and they've been at war with ISIL for a few years now. Germany were part of the Afghan war on top of that ISIL stuff, and are fighting Islamists in Mali too.

Spain - I'll be honest, this is bad of me... I don't remember their terrorist attack :blush:
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Chuckles1188 »

JM2K6 wrote:
Man In Black wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote: Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
That certainly worked for Germany, Belgium and Spain. :thumbup:
?

Belgium's history in Africa is pretty interesting, and they've been at war with ISIL for a few years now. Germany were part of the Afghan war on top of that ISIL stuff, and are fighting Islamists in Mali too.

Spain - I'll be honest, this is bad of me... I don't remember their terrorist attack :blush:
Madrid, train bombing. That one kind of worked too, they changed policy afterwards. Think it was sometime around 2004 from memory?
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by JM2K6 »

Chuckles1188 wrote:Madrid, train bombing. That one kind of worked too, they changed policy afterwards. Think it was sometime around 2004 from memory?
I didn't realise we were going that far back.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by TranceNRG »

blindcider wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Stop the spread of Islam? Yes yes I know it's controversial..
Remind me of how well attempts to suppress religions have worked in the past.
Yeah I understand this but it shouldn't be done by force but by encouraging muslims to see the light and become atheists/non practicing muslims at least the ones living in the western world. Get rid of crap like Sharia courts might help.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by iarmhiman »

That Madrid bombing was pretty horrific. Al Qaeda were on a bombing spree in Europe then.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by OptimisticJock »

Man In Black wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
That certainly worked for Germany, Belgium and Spain. :thumbup:
All involved in either Iraq or Afghan at one point.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Chuckles1188 »

Man In Black wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:Madrid, train bombing. That one kind of worked too, they changed policy afterwards. Think it was sometime around 2004 from memory?
I didn't realise we were going that far back.
Well you went back to Belgium's activities in Africa.
Well if Islam's critics can go back to the original expansion of the Caliphate for their arguments...
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by JM2K6 »

Man In Black wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:Madrid, train bombing. That one kind of worked too, they changed policy afterwards. Think it was sometime around 2004 from memory?
I didn't realise we were going that far back.
Well you went back to Belgium's activities in Africa.
Talking about historical reasons for antipathy isn't quite the same thing as discussing current issues with ISIS & co (although I accept that as an AQ attack Madrid does count)

It's reasonably telling that you didn't know any of these countries were involved in military efforts though so I'm not really sure whether your point holds at all?
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by mikejobes »

Terrible attack.

So easy to do these days too. Get in your car and go plough through some people.

How the f'ck do you even begin to prevent that?

Investing in Mental Health services would be one way I guess.
Reacting reasonably, maturely and properly when these things happen, and not pissing off the entire Muslim community (so as to not destroy relationships, or stifle any flow of information) would be another thing.

OK there are quite a few things you can do that'll make a difference.

Instead the right are gutting mental healthcare, and pissing off and stigmatizing all Muslims and blaming their religion.

Yet if one of their chaps carried out a terrorist attack (like the Murderer of Joe Cox) it was all "his ideology is not to blame".

Go figure.
Won't take you long.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by iarmhiman »

Here we go. :roll:
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by aitch@wasps »

eldanielfire wrote:
J Man wrote:My one dickhead comment for the thread and I'll bolt but

Does 'Asian' mean middle eastern Muslim now?

Sweet, got it.
In the Uk it is most likely to mean a brown person from the middle east/India region. We would say Chinese if we speak about east asian.
Would we? I'd go with 'Oriental'...

Loathing the media coverage of this incident. Police spokesman says he refuses to speculate, BBC reporter immediately starts speculating... :roll:
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by sewa »

mikejobes wrote:Terrible attack.

So easy to do these days too. Get in your car and go plough through some people.

How the f'ck do you even begin to prevent that?

Investing in Mental Health services would be one way I guess.
Reacting reasonably, maturely and properly when these things happen, and not pissing off the entire Muslim community (so as to not destroy relationships, or stifle any flow of information) would be another thing.

OK there are quite a few things you can do that'll make a difference.

Instead the right are gutting mental healthcare, and pissing off and stigmatizing all Muslims and blaming their religion.

Yet if one of their chaps carried out a terrorist attack (like the Murderer of Joe Cox) it was all "his ideology is not to blame".

Go figure.
Won't take you long.
Couldn't agree more, well said
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Hawk97 »

iarmhiman wrote:Awful scenes. Stay strong London.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but it's time to put cameras into Mosques to see what some of these preachers are saying. If singling out certain religions is the issue here, then put them in churches as well. No religious law is above the law of the state and the state is responsible for the protection of its civilians.

I'm quite angry watching these scenes on the news and am sick to death of Islamic fundamentalism/sharia/extremist Anjem Choudary like types or whatever else these death cult followers think they are so forgive me if I appear a little irrational.
I agree with your sentiments, but good luck with that. No way that ever gets sanctioned.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by theo »

Stop all faith schools of all denominations. It is the only way to be sure.

RIP those that have died. Apart from the plum that did it. Death is too good for him.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Chuckles1188 »

theo wrote:Stop all faith schools of all denominations. It is the only way to be sure.

RIP those that have died. Apart from the plum that did it. Death is too good for him.
No chance shifting all the Catholic and C of E schools
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Hawk97 »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:It makes me happy thinking about the perpetual cycle of disappointment the radical right must go through whenever there's an attack on London. Initial excitement that public opinion will finally turn to embrace them wholeheartedly, followed by the realisation that Londoners are, for the most part, deeply blase about terrorist attacks on their city.
Deeply blasé?

Hmm.
Yeah, nah.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by slick »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
blindcider wrote:
DAC2016 wrote:The first thing we should do is not let the left shut down any discussion by using terms such as racist and islamophobia.
Equally, we also shouldn't let the right and the islamophobes to hijack this horrific incident for their own ends.

IMO the solution to this has to come from the Islamic communities IMO who have to start rejecting terrorism in greater numbers and not allowing these things to happen in their name.
How do you put pressure on them to do this? Real pressure.
I don't know, and I'm not sure external pressure will help.

Stop getting involved in stupid wars in Islamic Africa and the Middle East might be a good start.
The alt right calls this the 'invade the world; invite the world' strategy. Is it any wonder the Muslim communities in the west are aggrieved? I would suggest that we stop doubling down.

That means stop being involved in wars in the middle east AND stop any more immigration from the Islamic world. It clearly is not working as well as it should.

Problem is the left only want to do the first part of the solution.
I think I can agree with much of that. It does seem a sign of madness that we know where the main problem is but we actively try and make that problem larger.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by Mahoney »

Is there a solution to terrorism? It looks to me as if terrorism is one of those things, like road traffic accidents, that are endemic to our phase of human civilisation.

Obviously there are different levels of terrorism, and the frightening aspect of this lot is that they give the impression that if they could let off a nuclear bomb and kill millions, or release sarin gas in the tube, they would, whereas previous terrorist activity has been a bit more focussed on a political outcome in this world that would not be progressed by seriously large scale murder. Still, in terms of their actual effectiveness in the UK thus far, PIRA were worse than this current lot, both in terms of numbers killed and inconvenience caused - it reached the point where they could bring whole areas of cities to a grinding halt with a phone call, they didn't even have to plant the bomb. Yesterday was horrible for the 0.002% of Londoners directly affected, but 5 people die on average every single day in car accidents in the UK and that's horrible for them and their families and friends too, but as a country we cope.

There are 1.6 billion people who identify as Muslims in the world. We're not going to persuade >50% of them to abandon that identity in a hurry and I really hope we're not proposing to kill >50% of them, so I just don't see the point in trying to convince everyone that Islam is a single monumental ideology requiring war with Western values - if you actually win that argument and manage to convince all 1.6 billion of them that that is the case then we really do have an enormous problem. Fortunately at the moment it seems to be a tiny and perhaps unsurprisingly pretty incompetent minority of them doing the whole death cult thing, so I'd rather we focussed on the deep ideological splits that are inevitable in any label encompassing 1.6 billion people. Hell, they split almost the moment Muhammad died. Texts, even texts claiming to be dictated by God, are surprisingly malleable things when people have a strong desire to find a formulation that works for them. Let's not argue against that! If people have come up with a non-violent interpretation of the Qu'ran that's a positive thing for anyone who wants to live in peace with Muslims, even if they seem to be stretching the meaning of words rather hard to do it.

Or, indeed, just let the naturally cognitively dissonant state of people well alone. I sometimes think that was basically how the European wars of religion ended - we didn't come up with a new ideology that allowed catholic and protestant to coexist, we just decided that whilst in theory the other side were evil disloyal heretic anti-christs undermining the fabric of the state, in practice it was an awful lot easier to forget all about it and not spend 30 years killing each other and making central Europe an economic wasteland. That appears to me to be how most Muslims behave in practice - all the 'yes sharia but only in the ideal Muslim state' stuff is a useful formulation to allow people to square the circle between their deeply held and felt identity as a Muslim and their desire to live in a peaceful secular modern world. And if it doesn't stand up to a vast amount of close scrutiny then the trick is to give as much opportunity as possible to avoid scrutinising it closely, because whilst that might result in one person abandoning their Muslim identity, it'll radicalise another.
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Re: Incident outside Parliament

Post by jorwar »

TranceNRG wrote:
blindcider wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
Stop the spread of Islam? Yes yes I know it's controversial..
Remind me of how well attempts to suppress religions have worked in the past.
Yeah I understand this but it shouldn't be done by force but by encouraging muslims to see the light and become atheists/non practicing muslims at least the ones living in the western world. Get rid of crap like Sharia courts might help.
That Daily Mail said our courts are the enemy of the people too. :?
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