€100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Rumham wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Just transferred LTC from US to my personal account. Instant. If I tried to move the equivalent in $ would take 1 to 2 days to show up in my account. Better still no third party ie a bank was needed or involved.
Amazing. I'm abroad and I just went to an ATM machine and transferred cash from my home bank acount into my wallet. Took about 20 seconds. Better still, there are real banks involved so if I get ripped off or my card get's stolen I don't lose out.
Nice so you drew cash? And if I had to send you cash right now from South Africa? What approach would you recommend for that?
SA is a 3rd world country. This seems to be the root of most of your issues.
That middling display of ignorance is the extent of your argument?

🤣🤣🤣
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Rinkals
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Rinkals »

sewa wrote:I have to inform the bank 30 days in advance if I want to remove funds. It's a great way to save, removes the temptation for impulse buying. It used to also attract higher rates of interest (sadly these are about 0%)
Hold on.

You are accusing crypto currency users of not being adult enough to manage their finances, yet you admit you cannot resist the temptation for impulse buying?

Personally, I have no investment in crypto-currencies, but I can certainly see the advantage.
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Yourmother
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Yourmother »

An interesting bit of “what if” analysis on the bitcoin blockchain, and knock on effects on full node.

https://hackernoon.com/if-we-lived-in-a ... 6a8ee02645

So let’s recap. If Bitcoin took over the world today, a single Bitcoin node operator in the United States:
would have to purchase a machine capable of providing 3TB of memory, that would probably cost well above $10,000
would need $2,413 per year in order to store the blockchain on the machine
would have to route blocks through a CDN operator that would cost over $600 per month. Gone are the days of Google Fiber and AT&T!
would face block validation times of up to one month per block. So our node might not be doing much of anything at all.
All of this, just to run a single Bitcoin node.
It doesn’t look like the 150,000+ nodes running today will be able to stick around long enough to see our Bitcoin Valhalla. Instead, they will be priced out and replaced by monopolized and centralized entities with enough financial power to maintain server racks that can handle hundreds of billions of consumer transactions per year. Wait a minute, this sounds suspiciously like Visa, MasterCard, and the modern banking system
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Yourmother wrote:An interesting bit of “what if” analysis on the bitcoin blockchain, and knock on effects on full node.

https://hackernoon.com/if-we-lived-in-a ... 6a8ee02645

So let’s recap. If Bitcoin took over the world today, a single Bitcoin node operator in the United States:
would have to purchase a machine capable of providing 3TB of memory, that would probably cost well above $10,000
would need $2,413 per year in order to store the blockchain on the machine
would have to route blocks through a CDN operator that would cost over $600 per month. Gone are the days of Google Fiber and AT&T!
would face block validation times of up to one month per block. So our node might not be doing much of anything at all.
All of this, just to run a single Bitcoin node.
It doesn’t look like the 150,000+ nodes running today will be able to stick around long enough to see our Bitcoin Valhalla. Instead, they will be priced out and replaced by monopolized and centralized entities with enough financial power to maintain server racks that can handle hundreds of billions of consumer transactions per year. Wait a minute, this sounds suspiciously like Visa, MasterCard, and the modern banking system
Interesting as it's more than a year old and doesn't take lightning network or off chain solutions into account. The author is advocating the running of Bitcoin nodes.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Anonymous 1 »

I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
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Yourmother
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Yourmother »

sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:An interesting bit of “what if” analysis on the bitcoin blockchain, and knock on effects on full node.

https://hackernoon.com/if-we-lived-in-a ... 6a8ee02645

So let’s recap. If Bitcoin took over the world today, a single Bitcoin node operator in the United States:
would have to purchase a machine capable of providing 3TB of memory, that would probably cost well above $10,000
would need $2,413 per year in order to store the blockchain on the machine
would have to route blocks through a CDN operator that would cost over $600 per month. Gone are the days of Google Fiber and AT&T!
would face block validation times of up to one month per block. So our node might not be doing much of anything at all.
All of this, just to run a single Bitcoin node.
It doesn’t look like the 150,000+ nodes running today will be able to stick around long enough to see our Bitcoin Valhalla. Instead, they will be priced out and replaced by monopolized and centralized entities with enough financial power to maintain server racks that can handle hundreds of billions of consumer transactions per year. Wait a minute, this sounds suspiciously like Visa, MasterCard, and the modern banking system
Interesting as it's more than a year old and doesn't take lightning network or off chain solutions into account. The author is advocating the running of Bitcoin nodes.
The lightening network just sounds like a bodge layer on top of the blockchain, to avoid using it, since it’s so flawed. Shared wallets.

It’s surely the most expensive inefficient use of hardware to solve a problem. Not especially environmentally friendly system. So much wasted computing resource.
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Rinkals
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Rinkals »

Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Yourmother wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:An interesting bit of “what if” analysis on the bitcoin blockchain, and knock on effects on full node.

https://hackernoon.com/if-we-lived-in-a ... 6a8ee02645

So let’s recap. If Bitcoin took over the world today, a single Bitcoin node operator in the United States:
would have to purchase a machine capable of providing 3TB of memory, that would probably cost well above $10,000
would need $2,413 per year in order to store the blockchain on the machine
would have to route blocks through a CDN operator that would cost over $600 per month. Gone are the days of Google Fiber and AT&T!
would face block validation times of up to one month per block. So our node might not be doing much of anything at all.
All of this, just to run a single Bitcoin node.
It doesn’t look like the 150,000+ nodes running today will be able to stick around long enough to see our Bitcoin Valhalla. Instead, they will be priced out and replaced by monopolized and centralized entities with enough financial power to maintain server racks that can handle hundreds of billions of consumer transactions per year. Wait a minute, this sounds suspiciously like Visa, MasterCard, and the modern banking system
Interesting as it's more than a year old and doesn't take lightning network or off chain solutions into account. The author is advocating the running of Bitcoin nodes.
The lightening network just sounds like a bodge layer on top of the blockchain, to avoid using it, since it’s so flawed. Shared wallets.

It’s surely the most expensive inefficient use of hardware to solve a problem. Not especially environmentally friendly system. So much wasted computing resource.
Lightning network is an off chain solution which allows transactions to happen without being reconciled with the Blockchain therefore saving on energy. You can of course set up a node yourself, fund it and open a channel. Once done any transactions routing through your node will garner a fee for you. If you decide to close the channel at some later stage (a few months or years) the node gets reconciled with the Blockchain as a normal Blockchain transaction.
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
I've spoken to very few serious BTC (and crypto generally) that think or have always thought that the most successful and therefore longer term solution would be Bitcoin. The understanding has always been the Bitcoin is the precursor but more elegant solutions will be developed.

Let's go back to what economist and economic science Nobel prize winner Milton Friedman said in 1999:

“The one thing that’s missing, but that will soon be developed, it’s a reliable e-cash. A method where buying on the Internet you can transfer funds from A to B, without A knowing B or B knowing A. The way in which I can take a 20 dollar bill and hand it over to you and there’s no record of where it came from. And you may get that without knowing who I am. That kind of thing will develop on the Internet.”

Here endeth the lesson.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by bok_viking »

Actually here in China blockchain applications are starting to get a foothold, big name players like Tencent are all involved in building blockchain based applications. I can see the benefit of blockchain in business applications where you want to make it as difficult as possible for records to be erased, keeping track of a chain of events, etc... like logistics, finance, etc. Unfortunately in China's case ithey seem to try to implement it into social media so that users cannot easily remove "illegal activity" from their accounts as there will always be a record somewhere.

But I think when it comes to crypto currencies... there is a lot of potential to it, but unless the value of those currencies can be backed in some way so they can become stable, like most conventional currencies.... its always going to stay some niche item for speculators, criminals and people who just want to transfer money internationally with little hassle. for me all it is, is an alternative to paypal 8)
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Yourmother
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Yourmother »

sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:An interesting bit of “what if” analysis on the bitcoin blockchain, and knock on effects on full node.

https://hackernoon.com/if-we-lived-in-a ... 6a8ee02645

So let’s recap. If Bitcoin took over the world today, a single Bitcoin node operator in the United States:
would have to purchase a machine capable of providing 3TB of memory, that would probably cost well above $10,000
would need $2,413 per year in order to store the blockchain on the machine
would have to route blocks through a CDN operator that would cost over $600 per month. Gone are the days of Google Fiber and AT&T!
would face block validation times of up to one month per block. So our node might not be doing much of anything at all.
All of this, just to run a single Bitcoin node.
It doesn’t look like the 150,000+ nodes running today will be able to stick around long enough to see our Bitcoin Valhalla. Instead, they will be priced out and replaced by monopolized and centralized entities with enough financial power to maintain server racks that can handle hundreds of billions of consumer transactions per year. Wait a minute, this sounds suspiciously like Visa, MasterCard, and the modern banking system
Interesting as it's more than a year old and doesn't take lightning network or off chain solutions into account. The author is advocating the running of Bitcoin nodes.
The lightening network just sounds like a bodge layer on top of the blockchain, to avoid using it, since it’s so flawed. Shared wallets.

It’s surely the most expensive inefficient use of hardware to solve a problem. Not especially environmentally friendly system. So much wasted computing resource.
Lightning network is an off chain solution which allows transactions to happen without being reconciled with the Blockchain therefore saving on energy. You can of course set up a node yourself, fund it and open a channel. Once done any transactions routing through your node will garner a fee for you. If you decide to close the channel at some later stage (a few months or years) the node gets reconciled with the Blockchain as a normal Blockchain transaction.
Yes, a bodge sitting on top of a flawed increasingly expensive system. A security issue in itself which ultimately undoes a lot of what the blockchain offers.

At the end of the day we are looking at powering a very slow and paltry transaction system which needs 10’s of thousands of full node servers to keep it running. Each with a copy of the same and ever growing data set. Burning huge amounts of CPU to solve irrelevant puzzles.
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Yourmother wrote:
Yes, a bodge sitting on top of a flawed increasingly expensive system. A security issue in itself which ultimately undoes a lot of what the blockchain offers.

At the end of the day we are looking at powering a very slow and paltry transaction system which needs 10’s of thousands of full node servers to keep it running. Each with a copy of the same and ever growing data set. Burning huge amounts of CPU to solve irrelevant puzzles.
Do you hold any cryptocurrencies? XRP for example?
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kiwinoz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by kiwinoz »

I think we are in the blockchain equivalent of 2000-2001 in internet times and the likes of ebay and Amazon yet to appear. There are lots of uses but still early days.
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Yourmother
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Yourmother »

sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Yes, a bodge sitting on top of a flawed increasingly expensive system. A security issue in itself which ultimately undoes a lot of what the blockchain offers.

At the end of the day we are looking at powering a very slow and paltry transaction system which needs 10’s of thousands of full node servers to keep it running. Each with a copy of the same and ever growing data set. Burning huge amounts of CPU to solve irrelevant puzzles.
Do you hold any cryptocurrencies? XRP for example?
No. Though XRP is more a platform and is not running from full node blockchain and creating arbitrary puzzles is it?
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Yourmother wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Yes, a bodge sitting on top of a flawed increasingly expensive system. A security issue in itself which ultimately undoes a lot of what the blockchain offers.

At the end of the day we are looking at powering a very slow and paltry transaction system which needs 10’s of thousands of full node servers to keep it running. Each with a copy of the same and ever growing data set. Burning huge amounts of CPU to solve irrelevant puzzles.
Do you hold any cryptocurrencies? XRP for example?
No. Though XRP is more a platform and is not running from full node blockchain and creating arbitrary puzzles is it?
So maybe buy $10 worth of BTC to see how it works?

XRP is a privately owned, open source, platform so yes it isn't running a blockchain per se however it is considered a cryptocurrency and is slowly being adopted banks for cross border transfers and payments.

You can of course own XRP yourself.
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Yourmother wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
Yourmother wrote:
Yes, a bodge sitting on top of a flawed increasingly expensive system. A security issue in itself which ultimately undoes a lot of what the blockchain offers.

At the end of the day we are looking at powering a very slow and paltry transaction system which needs 10’s of thousands of full node servers to keep it running. Each with a copy of the same and ever growing data set. Burning huge amounts of CPU to solve irrelevant puzzles.
Do you hold any cryptocurrencies? XRP for example?
No. Though XRP is more a platform and is not running from full node blockchain and creating arbitrary puzzles is it?
To add, the 'puzzle' is not arbitrary. And I agree that it's wasteful.
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
What area of economics could help in valuing BTC? Assuming you're not a chartist (tarrot card reader)?

No underlying economic supply/demand (given it's uselessness for payments) and no future cashflows (unlike cash, bonds, equities, etc.) and the ability to fork/launch new "coins" anytime mean it's only intrinsic scarcity is the novelty of being early - there's no possible scarcity of cryptocoins. It's intrinsically worthless except as a curio.
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sewa
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sewa »

Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
I think the moon is made out of cheese
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

derriz wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Just transferred LTC from US to my personal account. Instant. If I tried to move the equivalent in $ would take 1 to 2 days to show up in my account. Better still no third party ie a bank was needed or involved.
Amazing. I'm abroad and I just went to an ATM machine and transferred cash from my home bank acount into my wallet. Took about 20 seconds. Better still, there are real banks involved so if I get ripped off or my card get's stolen I don't lose out.
Nice so you drew cash? And if I had to send you cash right now from South Africa? What approach would you recommend for that?
Not bitcoin.
To be less flippant, you haven't described sending cash to SA at all. After leaving the ATM, I was able to walk into a newsagents and buy a (2 day old) english language newspaper before sitting down to peruse it over a coffee I was able to pay for.

In your enthusiasm to boost crypto, you've left out all the awkward steps involved; like lodging the cash into a bank account, transfering it to crypto exchange account, entering a buy order in your source currency and a sell order in SAR, waiting for execution, then withdrawing from your exchange SAR account to a real bank account in SA before finally being able to actually access the cash in SA. Not "instant" at all - a complete pain in the arse compared to using a humble ATM card.
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

derriz wrote:
derriz wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Just transferred LTC from US to my personal account. Instant. If I tried to move the equivalent in $ would take 1 to 2 days to show up in my account. Better still no third party ie a bank was needed or involved.
Amazing. I'm abroad and I just went to an ATM machine and transferred cash from my home bank acount into my wallet. Took about 20 seconds. Better still, there are real banks involved so if I get ripped off or my card get's stolen I don't lose out.
Nice so you drew cash? And if I had to send you cash right now from South Africa? What approach would you recommend for that?
Not bitcoin.
To be less flippant, you haven't described sending cash to SA at all. After leaving the ATM, I was able to walk into a newsagents and buy a (2 day old) english language newspaper before sitting down to peruse it over a coffee I was able to pay for.

In your enthusiasm to boost crypto, you've left out all the awkward steps involved; like lodging the cash into a bank account, transfering it to crypto exchange account, entering a buy order in your source currency and a sell order in SAR, waiting for execution, then withdrawing from your exchange SAR account to a real bank account in SA before finally being able to actually access the cash in SA. Not "instant" at all - a complete pain in the arse compared to using a humble ATM card.
I suspect you may have misunderstood my question.

If were to send you money right now (any amount, ideally as anonymously as possible), how should I do this?
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Anonymous 1
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
Thank you. It's quite obvious really
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

kiwinoz wrote:I think we are in the blockchain equivalent of 2000-2001 in internet times and the likes of ebay and Amazon yet to appear. There are lots of uses but still early days.
Google, Amazon, Ebay, yahoo, etc. all existed by 2000. Most of the worlds important media had a presence. You could already use the internet to book flights and hotels.

Within a year of the release of the Mosaic browser in the early 90s, people were publishing news, academic papers, movie databases, running auctions, etc. on the web and this was all largely without the luxury of the billions or 10s of billions of VC that has poured into crytos.

Bitcoin is over 10 years old and there is still no widely used application for the tech outside of speculation. Even its initial utility (buying drugs and guns) has gone. It's had a decade, and billions if not 10s of billions of dollars invested in trying to use distributed ledger tech to build applications with nothing to show for it. No shortage of time or money and yet the hype merchants are still peddling "potential" and "future applications". It's bollox.
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:I think we are in the blockchain equivalent of 2000-2001 in internet times and the likes of ebay and Amazon yet to appear. There are lots of uses but still early days.
Google, Amazon, Ebay, yahoo, etc. all existed by 2000. Most of the worlds important media had a presence. You could already use the internet to book flights and hotels.

Within a year of the release of the Mosaic browser in the early 90s, people were publishing news, academic papers, movie databases, running auctions, etc. on the web and this was all largely without the luxury of the billions or 10s of billions of VC that has poured into crytos.

Bitcoin is over 10 years old and there is still no widely used application for the tech outside of speculation. Even its initial utility (buying drugs and guns) has gone. It's had a decade, and billions if not 10s of billions of dollars invested in trying to use distributed ledger tech to build applications with nothing to show for it. No shortage of time or money and yet the hype merchants are still peddling "potential" and "future applications". It's bollox.
Yep, I was there in the early 90's, it was rubbish. In fact, it was by far and large rubbish until around 97 when banks started to come online and only really got going in 99 when development started to blossom and I was writing e-commerce applications then.

I accept your negativity (coupled with fear) regarding change. As mentioned previously, you're just attacking Bitcoin not cryptocurrencies generally.

And yet its the lead story on the NYSE this morning.
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:Just transferred LTC from US to my personal account. Instant. If I tried to move the equivalent in $ would take 1 to 2 days to show up in my account. Better still no third party ie a bank was needed or involved.
Amazing. I'm abroad and I just went to an ATM machine and transferred cash from my home bank acount into my wallet. Took about 20 seconds. Better still, there are real banks involved so if I get ripped off or my card get's stolen I don't lose out.
Nice so you drew cash? And if I had to send you cash right now from South Africa? What approach would you recommend for that?
In your enthusiasm to boost crypto, you've left out all the awkward steps involved; like lodging the cash into a bank account, transfering it to crypto exchange account, entering a buy order in your source currency and a sell order in SAR, waiting for execution, then withdrawing from your exchange SAR account to a real bank account in SA before finally being able to actually access the cash in SA. Not "instant" at all - a complete pain in the arse compared to using a humble ATM card.
I suspect you may have misunderstood my question.

If were to send you money right now (any amount, ideally as anonymously as possible), how should I do this?
I haven't misunderstood your question. I'm claiming the framing of the question is silly or disingenious. Kiwinoz one described international transfers using cryptos as being "instant" as if the tech actually solves the problem of moving cash around the world. What's been described doesn't achieve the aim of "sending money to SA" - transfering crypto from an exchange account to a wallet doesn't actually move any cash anywhere.

So say I'm standing, say in the middle of Paris, with 1K euro in cash and wanted to get it into the hands of someone in SA, how should I do this using crypto?
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Rinkals
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Rinkals »

derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
What area of economics could help in valuing BTC? Assuming you're not a chartist (tarrot card reader)?

No underlying economic supply/demand (given it's uselessness for payments) and no future cashflows (unlike cash, bonds, equities, etc.) and the ability to fork/launch new "coins" anytime mean it's only intrinsic scarcity is the novelty of being early - there's no possible scarcity of cryptocoins. It's intrinsically worthless except as a curio.
:lol:

Sorry, but that is impossibly stupid.

Of course it's not worthless; It is used in financial transactions. You can exchange it for dollars. You can use it to buy stuff. Saying that it's worthless makes Annon's vapid comment seem extremely deep.

At least Annon's comment, while obviously coming from a position of profound ignorance, does allude to a fairly valid concern in that a valuation of one bitcoin to close on $4,000 makes any conversion into a practical everyday value impractical.
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

sorCrer wrote:
derriz wrote:
kiwinoz wrote:I think we are in the blockchain equivalent of 2000-2001 in internet times and the likes of ebay and Amazon yet to appear. There are lots of uses but still early days.
Google, Amazon, Ebay, yahoo, etc. all existed by 2000. Most of the worlds important media had a presence. You could already use the internet to book flights and hotels.

Within a year of the release of the Mosaic browser in the early 90s, people were publishing news, academic papers, movie databases, running auctions, etc. on the web and this was all largely without the luxury of the billions or 10s of billions of VC that has poured into crytos.

Bitcoin is over 10 years old and there is still no widely used application for the tech outside of speculation. Even its initial utility (buying drugs and guns) has gone. It's had a decade, and billions if not 10s of billions of dollars invested in trying to use distributed ledger tech to build applications with nothing to show for it. No shortage of time or money and yet the hype merchants are still peddling "potential" and "future applications". It's bollox.
Yep, I was there in the early 90's, it was rubbish. In fact, it was by far and large rubbish until around 97 when banks started to come online and only really got going in 99 when development started to blossom and I was writing e-commerce applications then.
That's bollox - the potential was obvious and the number of applications was exploding - every week there new exciting websites. I distinctly remember showing a non-techy friend some web sites on Mosaic running on an monochrome X-terminal in 93 and he was blown away - I had to drag him away from IMDB. E-comerce applications existed long before 99 - I put a small bookshop online in 95 using PerlCGI, a close friend single-handedly wrote the first nationally successful recruitment/jobs website which launched in late 95. 10 years after Mosaic would bring us to 2003/2004 - there were almost a billion web/internet users globally at that stage. How many people have crypto accounts or use applications based on crypto/DL 10 years after bitcoin was launched?
sorCrer wrote: I accept your negativity (coupled with fear) regarding change. As mentioned previously, you're just attacking Bitcoin not cryptocurrencies generally.
Fear :lol: - unlike you (I suspect), I've actually been involved in building a smart contract/DL application (for the energy markets). An no, I'm not just attacking BTC or even crytocurrencies generally - I'm attacking the whole idea that crypto DL technology has a great future. Tech fads come and go, this one will die soon also.
derriz
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by derriz »

Rinkals wrote:
derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
What area of economics could help in valuing BTC? Assuming you're not a chartist (tarrot card reader)?

No underlying economic supply/demand (given it's uselessness for payments) and no future cashflows (unlike cash, bonds, equities, etc.) and the ability to fork/launch new "coins" anytime mean it's only intrinsic scarcity is the novelty of being early - there's no possible scarcity of cryptocoins. It's intrinsically worthless except as a curio.
:lol:

Sorry, but that is impossibly stupid.

Of course it's not worthless; It is used in financial transactions. You can exchange it for dollars. You can use it to buy stuff. Saying that it's worthless makes Annon's vapid comment seem extremely deep.
So that's what an opinion "rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular" looks like in your mind? :lol: It only seems stupid to you because of your own ignorance of economic pricing models.

So where can you spend BTC - what can you buy with BTC? How much business is conducted using BTC as the exchange mechanism? How do you earn a return on a BTC holding? What prevents the limitless invention of cryptocurrencies and what is intrisically (you seemed to have overlooked this word) valuable about BTC which doesn't apply to the millions of alt-shitcoins?
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

derriz wrote:So say I'm standing, say in the middle of Paris, with 1K euro in cash and wanted to get it into the hands of someone in SA, how should I do this using crypto?
As you're holding it in cash, you clearly have a problem as you would in any international banking transaction. I've checked at https://coinatmradar.com/ and there don't appear to be any BTC ATM's to deposit into in Paris even though there are around 1000 in Europe/UK. paxful.com may be an option or localbitcoins.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
What area of economics could help in valuing BTC? Assuming you're not a chartist (tarrot card reader)?

No underlying economic supply/demand (given it's uselessness for payments) and no future cashflows (unlike cash, bonds, equities, etc.) and the ability to fork/launch new "coins" anytime mean it's only intrinsic scarcity is the novelty of being early - there's no possible scarcity of cryptocoins. It's intrinsically worthless except as a curio.
:lol:

Sorry, but that is impossibly stupid.

Of course it's not worthless; It is used in financial transactions. You can exchange it for dollars. You can use it to buy stuff. Saying that it's worthless makes Annon's vapid comment seem extremely deep.
So that's what an opinion "rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular" looks like in your mind? :lol: It only seems stupid to you because of your own ignorance of economic pricing models.

So where can you spend BTC - what can you buy with BTC? How much business is conducted using BTC as the exchange mechanism? How do you earn a return on a BTC holding? What prevents the limitless invention of cryptocurrencies and what is intrisically (you seemed to have overlooked this word) valuable about BTC which doesn't apply to the millions of alt-shitcoins?
Oddly enough I've actually bought and paid for something in BTC from someone on this forum who I don't apart from excellent postings know from a bar of soap.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Anonymous 1 »

1 Bitcoin equals
2,958.32 Pound sterling
26 Dec, 12:04 UTC · Disclaimer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Anonymous 1 »

bimboman Mon Feb 05, 2018 wrote:
sorCrer wrote:
bimboman wrote:My point is you'll need USD or a currency equivalent .... You don't view your self as having lost money in the last week, but in your eventual plan of being long BTC you have, the book value has halved in any real trading terms you've lost money.
The largest part (+80%) of my portfolio was bought at $350 - $600. The price of Bitcoin on this date one year ago was $1017. I bought the bulk of my XRP holdings at 0.06c

Great, you are missing my point, if you sold all of it at $17,000 and bought them back today you'd have made a big profit. You seem to miss that traditional investments have their returns measuresd periodically against a new set price , if you don't do that performance isn't correctly measured.

As I've said to you before if you've a few million in coins sell some and buy real,world stuff with it.
He would have made a big profit if he had just sold them. Buying them back as it was falling like a stone would have just been silly.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

derriz wrote:That's bollox - the potential was obvious and the number of applications was exploding - every week there new exciting websites. I distinctly remember showing a non-techy friend some web sites on Mosaic running on an monochrome X-terminal in 93 and he was blown away - I had to drag him away from IMDB. E-comerce applications existed long before 99 - I put a small bookshop online in 95 using PerlCGI, a close friend single-handedly wrote the first nationally successful recruitment/jobs website which launched in late 95. 10 years after Mosaic would bring us to 2003/2004 - there were almost a billion web/internet users globally at that stage. How many people have crypto accounts or use applications based on crypto/DL 10 years after bitcoin was launched?

Same year as Ebay and Amazon started. I was working for ECNet in the late 90's developing e-commerce solutions and had been building websites since 94. I've done that ever since. The internet was incomparable to what it is today.
derriz wrote:Fear :lol: - unlike you (I suspect), I've actually been involved in building a smart contract/DL application (for the energy markets). An no, I'm not just attacking BTC or even crytocurrencies generally - I'm attacking the whole idea that crypto DL technology has a great future. Tech fads come and go, this one will die soon also.
I've written a currently non-commercial smart contract application specifically around contractual control of sim swapping. I'm looking for funding to drive that. I have written many e-commerce applications including some driving worldwide aviation sites.

Maybe it will die, after all this has been predicted many times going back to 2010 (https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/).

However, you don't need to be bitter next time just chase and monetize a fad more aggressively. :lol:
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

Anonymous. wrote:He would have made a big profit if he had just sold them. Buying them back as it was falling like a stone would have just been silly.
The thing is I didn't need to. I have no heirs and worse, very little desire for large vanity purchases although I will spend more that I should sometimes on food & drink.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Rinkals »

derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
derriz wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:I hope Bitcoin will one day work properly as a currency. I think it will probably be about 1 Bitcoin to the dollar
That's obviously an observation rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular.

:roll:
What area of economics could help in valuing BTC? Assuming you're not a chartist (tarrot card reader)?

No underlying economic supply/demand (given it's uselessness for payments) and no future cashflows (unlike cash, bonds, equities, etc.) and the ability to fork/launch new "coins" anytime mean it's only intrinsic scarcity is the novelty of being early - there's no possible scarcity of cryptocoins. It's intrinsically worthless except as a curio.
:lol:

Sorry, but that is impossibly stupid.

Of course it's not worthless; It is used in financial transactions. You can exchange it for dollars. You can use it to buy stuff. Saying that it's worthless makes Annon's vapid comment seem extremely deep.
So that's what an opinion "rooted in a deep and profound understanding of economics in general and crypto-currencies in particular" looks like in your mind? :lol: It only seems stupid to you because of your own ignorance of economic pricing models.

So where can you spend BTC - what can you buy with BTC? How much business is conducted using BTC as the exchange mechanism? How do you earn a return on a BTC holding? What prevents the limitless invention of cryptocurrencies and what is intrisically (you seemed to have overlooked this word) valuable about BTC which doesn't apply to the millions of alt-shitcoins?
I was being facetious and I seem to have made an error in expecting you to be able to understand that.

I don't hold any crypto-currency myself (as I have already said) and I have no idea what business is conducted in the various crypto, but I very much doubt that it is solely a sort of investment hedge as you seem to imply.

I'm sure that Sauce can give you the details you require, but even if it is not currently a major transactional currency, there is no reason why you cannot use it as such, and I would expect it to gain usage as time goes on.

Claiming that it's "worthless" is pretty obviously not accurate.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sewa »

As us Irish found out during our property crash ten years ago something is only worth what anyone else is at that point in time willing to pay for it. And that is when it comes to something that has some intrinsic value, the land, materials etc. If people lose faith in bitcoin it will be pretty much worthless. No one sensible would buy them just because they love the tech
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by ManInTheBar »

"Money" is (or should be) a representation of a store of value being the difference between what things cost and that things can be sold for.

By comparison with 'conventional' currencies BTC does a very poor job at this currently owing to its volatility.

There is no reason why BTC should not become an effective and stable store of value EXCEPT that existing currencies do that as well as any mechanism can.

If the best that can be said of BTC (or any other crypto) is that it could, one day, be as usable and stable as the $ then I am afraid it is not worth the effort.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Rinkals »

sewa wrote:As us Irish found out during our property crash ten years ago something is only worth what anyone else is at that point in time willing to pay for it. And that is when it comes to something that has some intrinsic value, the land, materials etc. If people lose faith in bitcoin it will be pretty much worthless. No one sensible would buy them just because they love the tech
You could say exactly the same thing about national currencies.

If you want to take it that far, then the value of a five pound note is bound to the value of a small rectangle of paper.
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by Anonymous 1 »

sorCrer wrote:
Anonymous. wrote:He would have made a big profit if he had just sold them. Buying them back as it was falling like a stone would have just been silly.
The thing is I didn't need to. I have no heirs and worse, very little desire for large vanity purchases although I will spend more that I should sometimes on food & drink.
I know you are in it for the tech and as it falls from $17k to currently $3.7k you had no need to sell The same will be true when it falls to $1k.
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sewa
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sewa »

Rinkals wrote:
sewa wrote:As us Irish found out during our property crash ten years ago something is only worth what anyone else is at that point in time willing to pay for it. And that is when it comes to something that has some intrinsic value, the land, materials etc. If people lose faith in bitcoin it will be pretty much worthless. No one sensible would buy them just because they love the tech
You could say exactly the same thing about national currencies.

If you want to take it that far, then the value of a five pound note is bound to the value of a small rectangle of paper.
In the developed economies of the world a national currency falling like bitcoin is unheard of. Even the Uk pound rarely drops more than 20% in a year
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sorCrer
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Re: €100 of Bitcoin in 2010 = €70m today

Post by sorCrer »

sewa wrote:
Rinkals wrote:
sewa wrote:As us Irish found out during our property crash ten years ago something is only worth what anyone else is at that point in time willing to pay for it. And that is when it comes to something that has some intrinsic value, the land, materials etc. If people lose faith in bitcoin it will be pretty much worthless. No one sensible would buy them just because they love the tech
You could say exactly the same thing about national currencies.

If you want to take it that far, then the value of a five pound note is bound to the value of a small rectangle of paper.
In the developed economies of the world a national currency falling like bitcoin is unheard of. Even the Uk pound rarely drops more than 20% in a year
My personal opinion is that it's a new form of 'currency' which will assist in driving the 4th Industrial Revolution. Yes it is extremely volatile and technically difficult for some to understand. Unlike derriz, I don't think it's a fad and regardless it has value in the education of monetary systems and stock exchanges.
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