The European origin of humans

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Santa
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The European origin of humans

Post by Santa »

Saw this yesterday. Very interesting but obviously quite early in the piece given the range of other data (fossil and genetic) that supports the Out of Africa story.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017 ... ists-find/
The history of human evolution has been rewritten after scientists discovered that Europe was the birthplace of mankind, not Africa.

Currently, most experts believe that our human lineage split from apes around seven million years ago in central Africa, where hominids remained for the next five million years before venturing further afield.

But two fossils of an ape-like creature which had human-like teeth have been found in Bulgaria and Greece, dating to 7.2 million years ago.
If this turns out to be solid the politics of it will be interesting. And if it does stand up I wonder if it actually lends wait to the polycentric hypothesis.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by eldanielfire »

I read this yesterday. It's quite interesting, but I would suspect another explaination might be given at some point as evidence stacks up or goes for further evaluation. Even if it is perfecty contradictory evidence there is still masses of other evidence pointing to East Africa as our origin meaning this only adds confusion in a perfectly valid way.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Santa »

eldanielfire wrote:I read this yesterday. It's quite interesting, but I would suspect another explaination might be given at some point as evidence stacks up or goes for further evaluation. Even if it is perfecty contradictory evidence there is still masses of other evidence pointing to East Africa as our origin meaning this only adds confusion in a perfectly valid way.
Agree. It's got some big hurdles to hurdle before it has real legs.
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englishchief
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by englishchief »

I've always failed to understand why this was a political issue? I assume it's a non-PC thing, can someone give me the lowdown?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by True Blue »

englishchief wrote:I've always failed to understand why this was a political issue? I assume it's a non-PC thing, can someone give me the lowdown?
Because Africans will claim it's another whitewashing of history (even though white people didn't exist back then anyway).
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by handyman »

God created us and the earth and everything else.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by deadduck »

Given the plethora of hominin species in Africa and the comparative lack of them in Europe from that time period it does seem pretty unlikely that they originated in Europe.
You would also expect, if humans originated in the Mediterranean, that you would find the highest levels of genetic diversity there. But we don't, we find them in Africa.


It's also quite possible that this species wasn't a human ancestor, just an early cousin that has since gone extinct.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Santa »

deadduck wrote:Given the plethora of hominin species in Africa and the comparative lack of them in Europe from that time period it does seem pretty unlikely that they originated in Europe.
You would also expect, if humans originated in the Mediterranean, that you would find the highest levels of genetic diversity there. But we don't, we find them in Africa.


It's also quite possible that this species wasn't a human ancestor, just an early cousin that has since gone extinct.
Agree. But we'll see.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Farva »

deadduck wrote:Given the plethora of hominin species in Africa and the comparative lack of them in Europe from that time period it does seem pretty unlikely that they originated in Europe.
You would also expect, if humans originated in the Mediterranean, that you would find the highest levels of genetic diversity there. But we don't, we find them in Africa.


It's also quite possible that this species wasn't a human ancestor, just an early cousin that has since gone extinct.
There have been loads of humanoid species, and this one is very very old, over twice as old as lucy for instance.
I think you could be on to something.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by assfly »

Fascinating stuff. As already said, this will undoubtedly undergo some serious reviews by peers, which is brutal in this field.
True Blue wrote:Because Africans will claim it's another whitewashing of history (even though white people didn't exist back then anyway).
Which Africans, in particular?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by deadduck »

It's interesting to think about the geography
We often talk about "sub-saharan Africa" but 7 million years ago it's quite likely that the Sahara didn't exist and was in the midst of a savannah green period. The Mediterranean would probably have been shallower (and therefore narrower) as it was in the process of being closed off and in general sea levels would probably have been lower due to glaciation
Compared to present day it would have been pretty easy for hominins to migrate north into Europe, perhaps even to the point where they had seasonal migrations
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Sinkers »

I thought it was accepted that there had been an number of hominin out of Africa migrations that had ended in extinction before our lot finally managed it.
Or does this predate all of those?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Enzedder »

Santa wrote:
deadduck wrote:Given the plethora of hominin species in Africa and the comparative lack of them in Europe from that time period it does seem pretty unlikely that they originated in Europe.
You would also expect, if humans originated in the Mediterranean, that you would find the highest levels of genetic diversity there. But we don't, we find them in Africa.


It's also quite possible that this species wasn't a human ancestor, just an early cousin that has since gone extinct.
Agree. But we'll see.
Or we won't because that Gold thingy only left one fossil for us to find - just for giggles.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by mikerob »

I thought the DNA evidence for "out of Africa" was pretty overwhelming.

So there is a lot less variation in DNA for humans in regions outside Africa than there is within Africa, implying that a small group of humans migrated out of Africa some time after humans had been established within Africa.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by kiap »

Supposedly

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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Farva »

deadduck wrote:It's interesting to think about the geography
We often talk about "sub-saharan Africa" but 7 million years ago it's quite likely that the Sahara didn't exist and was in the midst of a savannah green period. The Mediterranean would probably have been shallower (and therefore narrower) as it was in the process of being closed off and in general sea levels would probably have been lower due to glaciation
Compared to present day it would have been pretty easy for hominins to migrate north into Europe, perhaps even to the point where they had seasonal migrations
Hmm, the ice ages cycle, I dont know if we could be confident that there was one 7.1m years ago. I think the geological scale we are talking are now to great to think about ice ages.
Having said that, there was evidence of a severe drought in the region 6m years ago where the Mediterranean dried out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis.
The climate of the abyssal plain during the drought is unknown. There is no situation on Earth directly comparable to the dry Mediterranean, and thus it is not possible to know its climate. There is not even a consensus as to whether the Mediterranean Sea even dried out completely; it seems likeliest that at least three or four large brine lakes on the abyssal plains remained at all times. The extent of desiccation is very hard to judge due to the reflective seismic nature of the salt beds, and the difficulty in drilling cores, making it difficult to map their thickness.

Nonetheless, one can study the forces at play in the atmosphere to arrive at a good speculation of the climate. As winds blew across the "Mediterranean Sink", they would heat or cool adiabatically with altitude. In the empty Mediterranean Basin the summertime temperatures would probably have been extremely high even during the coldest phase of any glacial era. Using the dry adiabatic lapse rate of around 10 °C (18 °F) per kilometer, a theoretical temperature of an area 4 km (2.5 mi) below sea level would be about 40 °C (72 °F) warmer than the temperature at sea level. Under this simplistic assumption, theoretical temperature maxima would have been around 80 °C (176 °F) at the lowest depths of the dry abyssal plain permitting little life other than extremophiles. One can also calculate that 3–5 km (2–3 mi) below sea level would have resulted in 1.45 to 1.71 atm (1,102 to 1,300 mmHg) of air pressure at the bottom. Although it was probably quite dry in the Basin, there is no direct way to measure how much drier it would have been compared to its surroundings. Areas with less severe depths would probably have been very dry.

Today the evaporation from the Mediterranean Sea supplies moisture that falls in frontal storms, but without such moisture, the Mediterranean climate that we associate with Italy, Greece, and the Levant would be limited to the Iberian Peninsula and the western Maghreb. Climates throughout the central and eastern basin of the Mediterranean and surrounding regions to the north and east would have been drier even above modern sea level. The eastern Alps, the Balkans, and the Hungarian plain would also be much drier than they are today, even if the westerlies prevailed as they do now.[citation needed] However, the Paratethys ocean provided water to the area north of the Mediterranean basin. The Wallachian-Pontic and Hungarian basins were underwater during the Miocene, modifying the climate of what is now the Balkans and other areas north of the Mediterranean basin. The Pannonian Sea was a source of water north of the Mediterranean basin until the middle Pleistocene before becoming the Hungarian plain. Debate exists whether the waters of the Wallachian-Pontic basin (and the possibly connected Pannonian Sea) would have had access (thus bringing water) to at least the eastern Mediterranean basin at times during the Miocene.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by A5D5E5 »

handyman wrote:God created us and the earth and everything else.
Possibly a god did, but we definitely don't know which one.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

assfly wrote:Fascinating stuff. As already said, this will undoubtedly undergo some serious reviews by peers, which is brutal in this field.
True Blue wrote:Because Africans will claim it's another whitewashing of history (even though white people didn't exist back then anyway).
Which Africans, in particular?

Prolly the American ones .
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

A5D5E5 wrote:
handyman wrote:God created us and the earth and everything else.
Possibly a god did, but we definitely don't know which one.

You mean, YOU don't. And also acknowledge that several gods exist .. Which handyman disputes.

Never just dump another man's knowledge, he might be on to something.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by MungoMan »

Fúck that noise. Is there any evidence of a human origin for Europeans yet?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by A5D5E5 »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
handyman wrote:God created us and the earth and everything else.
Possibly a god did, but we definitely don't know which one.

You mean, YOU don't. And also acknowledge that several gods exist .. Which handyman disputes.

Never just dump another man's knowledge, he might be on to something.
Don't confuse knowledge and belief.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Calculus »

englishchief wrote:I've always failed to understand why this was a political issue? I assume it's a non-PC thing, can someone give me the lowdown?

It's only political issue for a few weirdos. Usually white supremacist with very limited understanding of the science.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by mikerob »

Calculus wrote:
englishchief wrote:I've always failed to understand why this was a political issue? I assume it's a non-PC thing, can someone give me the lowdown?

It's only political issue for a few weirdos. Usually white supremacist with very limited understanding of the science.
Not just white supremacists. The Chinese had difficulty accepting the "out of Africa" theory as it suited their national narrative that the Chinese people were unique and different. IIRC none of the reputable Chinese scientists working in this area are supporting this so it is purely political.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

MungoMan wrote:Fúck that noise. Is there any evidence of a human origin for Europeans yet?

Humanoid.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

A5D5E5 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:

You mean, YOU don't. And also acknowledge that several gods exist .. Which handyman disputes.

Never just dump another man's knowledge, he might be on to something.
Don't confuse knowledge and belief.
Do you KNOW that several gods exist ?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by A5D5E5 »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:

You mean, YOU don't. And also acknowledge that several gods exist .. Which handyman disputes.

Never just dump another man's knowledge, he might be on to something.
Don't confuse knowledge and belief.
Do you KNOW that several gods exist ?
No. Which is why I said a God may "possibly" have created everything*

But I do KNOW that humanity has believed in many different ones which is why I said that we don't know which one might have been responsible.

Your move.


*I won't bother taking you down the "who created God" rabbit hole, but can we both just agree that logical flaw in Handyman's thinking exists as well?
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Calculus »

mikerob wrote:I thought the DNA evidence for "out of Africa" was pretty overwhelming.

So there is a lot less variation in DNA for humans in regions outside Africa than there is within Africa, implying that a small group of humans migrated out of Africa some time after humans had been established within Africa.

Homo sapiens almost certainly originated in Africa, around 200K years ago, with some possible later admixture from other Homo species or homo sapiens subspecies. The latter classifications are still fairly fluid as far as I am aware.

This article, despite the misleading headline, is about the origin of hominins, which they define as “humans and their non-ape ancestors“.

So hominins, to use their terminology, are though to originate in Africa anywhere from 5 to 10 million years ago. It gets a bit complex because hybrid speciation might well have taken place. You have chromosomes which suggest a split from a common ancestor (chimp and humans) 5m years ago, while others suggest a split millions of years before that. There are of course alternative explanations for this.

Anyway, this study is based on an isolated premolar found in Bulgaria so the authors are rather more cautious than apparent from the DT piece:

“Therefore, we submit that the dental root attributes of Graecopithecus suggest hominin affinities, such that its hominin status cannot be excluded. If this status is confirmed by additional fossil evidence, Graecopithecus would be the oldest known hominin…….”
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

A5D5E5 wrote:
No. Which is why I said a God may "possibly" have created everything*

But I do KNOW that humanity has believed in many different ones which is why I said that we don't know which one might have been responsible.

Your move.


*I won't bother taking you down the "who created God" rabbit hole, but can we both just agree that logical flaw in Handyman's thinking exists as well?
It is not a flaw, it is part of human belief systems and values we have to allow for. Evolution is just as illogical as intelligent design, wrt the "creation".

We should not shoot down people on beliefs that we cannot DISPROVE. We should rather work our way around it.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

Calculus wrote:
mikerob wrote:I thought the DNA evidence for "out of Africa" was pretty overwhelming.

So there is a lot less variation in DNA for humans in regions outside Africa than there is within Africa, implying that a small group of humans migrated out of Africa some time after humans had been established within Africa.

Homo sapiens almost certainly originated in Africa, around 200K years ago, with some possible later admixture from other Homo species or homo sapiens subspecies. The latter classifications are still fairly fluid as far as I am aware.

This article, despite the misleading headline, is about the origin of hominins, which they define as “humans and their non-ape ancestors“.

So hominins, to use their terminology, are though to originate in Africa anywhere from 5 to 10 million years ago. It gets a bit complex because hybrid speciation might well have taken place. You have chromosomes which suggest a split from a common ancestor (chimp and humans) 5m years ago, while others suggest a split millions of years before that. There are of course alternative explanations for this.

Anyway, this study is based on an isolated premolar found in Bulgaria so the authors are rather more cautious than apparent from the DT piece:

“Therefore, we submit that the dental root attributes of Graecopithecus suggest hominin affinities, such that its hominin status cannot be excluded. If this status is confirmed by additional fossil evidence, Graecopithecus would be the oldest known hominin…….”

It is a stone. He picked it up, found something underneath it.

May he get funds enough to do research, field trails, lab trials, whatever is necessary, to further add to knowledge.
That is what this is mostly about, funds for him, knowledge for me.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Calculus »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
No. Which is why I said a God may "possibly" have created everything*

But I do KNOW that humanity has believed in many different ones which is why I said that we don't know which one might have been responsible.

Your move.


*I won't bother taking you down the "who created God" rabbit hole, but can we both just agree that logical flaw in Handyman's thinking exists as well?
It is not a flaw, it is part of human belief systems and values we have to allow for. Evolution is just as illogical as intelligent design, wrt the "creation".

We should not shoot down people on beliefs that we cannot DISPROVE. We should rather work our way around it.
You come across as someone who knows the square root of fudge all about evolution so not sure how you can claim that.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

Calculus wrote:
You come across as someone who knows the square root of f**k all about evolution so not sure how you can claim that.

How perceptive you are - and how stupid, at the same time.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by assfly »

You're getting very grumpy and cynical in your old age oom WT :lol:
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by A5D5E5 »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
No. Which is why I said a God may "possibly" have created everything*

But I do KNOW that humanity has believed in many different ones which is why I said that we don't know which one might have been responsible.

Your move.


*I won't bother taking you down the "who created God" rabbit hole, but can we both just agree that logical flaw in Handyman's thinking exists as well?
It is not a flaw, it is part of human belief systems and values we have to allow for. Evolution is just as illogical as intelligent design, wrt the "creation".

We should not shoot down people on beliefs that we cannot DISPROVE. We should rather work our way around it.
I wasn't shooting him down. I was raising a point for discussion.

He (and you) believe in a particular God. I think that is just a cultural inheritance. I don't believe in God but I accept the possibility. Once I do that however I can't give preference to your God just because you do. Based purely on probability (a numbers game) your faith is much more likely to be wrong than it is to be correct. The same is true of all believers in all faiths.

Whilst I respect your right to believe what you wish, I see no reason to work around a faith that is simply a function of where your parents took you each Sunday before you developed the ability to question it or refuse.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Calculus »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Calculus wrote:
You come across as someone who knows the square root of f**k all about evolution so not sure how you can claim that.

How perceptive you are - and how stupid, at the same time.

You are as bad as globus in derailing threads with your inanities.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

assfly wrote:You're getting very grumpy and cynical in your old age oom WT :lol:

Dumb plum and the current cold spell over here tend to make me that way.
;)

A5D5E5 - I cannot remember where I stated that I believe in a God or god that created earth etc. etc.
But I will defend Handyman's or Bokkom's or whoever's right to belief that and saying it without ridicule .

There are too many variables to proof Darwinist evolution is the answer to creation, and the sanctity of "science" is starting to smack of the sanctity of the Middle Age Christian Church, who brooked no gainsaying .

Now I will wait whilst Calculus rally the Inquisition, get Torquemada lined up and ready and come burn me at a stake.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by julian »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
MungoMan wrote:Fúck that noise. Is there any evidence of a human origin for Europeans yet?

Humanoid.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Calculus »

Wilson's Toffee wrote:
assfly wrote:You're getting very grumpy and cynical in your old age oom WT :lol:

Dumb plum and the current cold spell over here tend to make me that way.
;)

A5D5E5 - I cannot remember where I stated that I believe in a God or god that created earth etc. etc.
But I will defend Handyman's or Bokkom's or whoever's right to belief that and saying it without ridicule .

There are too many variables to proof Darwinist evolution is the answer to creation, and the sanctity of "science" is starting to smack of the sanctity of the Middle Age Christian Church, who brooked no gainsaying .

Now I will wait whilst Calculus rally the Inquisition, get Torquemada lined up and ready and come burn me at a stake.

No burning, just a :roll: at a silly ou oom.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Wilson's Toffee »

Calculus wrote:
No burning, just a :roll: at a silly ou oom.
Leave me, concentrate on the Bulgarian jaw ...
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by dr dre2 »

Santa wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I read this yesterday. It's quite interesting, but I would suspect another explaination might be given at some point as evidence stacks up or goes for further evaluation. Even if it is perfecty contradictory evidence there is still masses of other evidence pointing to East Africa as our origin meaning this only adds confusion in a perfectly valid way.
Agree. It's got some big hurdles to hurdle before it has real legs.
It would make sense to me. A change in environment leading to adaption. As they spread in to new habitat different skills made for success. By no means proof but moving from one climate to another is likely to be a reasonable kick starter and moving continent instead of waiting for a climate shift where your sat could peed things up a bit.
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Re: The European origin of humans

Post by Santa »

A5D5E5 wrote:
Wilson's Toffee wrote:
A5D5E5 wrote:
No. Which is why I said a God may "possibly" have created everything*

But I do KNOW that humanity has believed in many different ones which is why I said that we don't know which one might have been responsible.

Your move.


*I won't bother taking you down the "who created God" rabbit hole, but can we both just agree that logical flaw in Handyman's thinking exists as well?
It is not a flaw, it is part of human belief systems and values we have to allow for. Evolution is just as illogical as intelligent design, wrt the "creation".

We should not shoot down people on beliefs that we cannot DISPROVE. We should rather work our way around it.
I wasn't shooting him down. I was raising a point for discussion.

He (and you) believe in a particular God. I think that is just a cultural inheritance. I don't believe in God but I accept the possibility. Once I do that however I can't give preference to your God just because you do. Based purely on probability (a numbers game) your faith is much more likely to be wrong than it is to be correct. The same is true of all believers in all faiths.

Whilst I respect your right to believe what you wish, I see no reason to work around a faith that is simply a function of where your parents took you each Sunday before you developed the ability to question it or refuse.
There's a point of logic on there. If you acknowledge the possibility of single God and that god declares itself to be the one and only God, can you acknowldegndckowledge the possibility of other gods?
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