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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:52 pm 
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wouldnt surprise me if this transpires to be the biggest disaster in the UK in terms of loss of life for 50 years or more. horrific.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:59 pm 
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armchair pundit wrote:
wouldnt surprise me if this transpires to be the biggest disaster in the UK in terms of loss of life for 50 years or more. horrific.

Civilian = Lockerbie.

I'd been musing this at breakfast so had checked.

{EDIT} Incidentally, the scale biggest killer statistically is probably the opposite of fire i.e. water = ship sinkings.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:55 pm 
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And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:10 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


I don't think Grenfall Tower was owned by private landlords.

I don't think the issue was damp walls caused by condensation.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:11 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


It's slipped their attention that Corbyn's new law wouldn't have applied here, as the owner was the local council?

However pretty shameless stuff all round


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Saint wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


It's slipped their attention that Corbyn's new law wouldn't have applied here, as the owner was the local council?

However pretty shameless stuff all round


The most shameful thing, that would have been the easiest, biggest life saver would have been a central fire alarm.

Someone earlier posted a video interview with a guy who (along with his elderly auntie) had managed to reasonably easily get out from the 17th floor, but there are reports of people being trapped inside on the 7th or 8th floor, purely because they just didn't realise in time. The guy who did the interview was only woken up because his neighbour banged on his door. If it wasn't for that, he'd be dead.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:20 pm 
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It appears that external insulation was a factor in the fire in the Shepherds Bush tower in August last year.

The London Fire Brigade wrote to all London boroughs about this.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/business ... 3.article#

As I mentioned, the Shepherds Bush tower is quite close to Grenfell tower, but in a different borough.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


I don't think Grenfall Tower was owned by private landlords.

I don't think the issue was damp walls caused by condensation.

Anyone explain how this all works because KCTMO is a Ltd company. Interesting accounts too
- started in '10 and first year turnover £11m with wage bill of £2.7m. Assume turnover is from rents?
- last year turnover was £17m with expenditure of £4.5m leaving gross profit of £13m....... and wage bill had expanded to £11.5m


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:29 pm 
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the rich landlords and the paid off politicians that allowed this to happen can go to hell. Tragic is not even a word.

RIP to all the innocent people that died.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Deadtigers wrote:
the rich landlords and the paid off politicians that allowed this to happen can go to hell. Tragic is not even a word.

RIP to all the innocent people that died.


In this case the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:33 pm 
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mikerob wrote:
It appears that external insulation was a factor in the fire in the Shepherds Bush tower in August last year.

The London Fire Brigade wrote to all London boroughs about this.

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/business ... 3.article#

As I mentioned, the Shepherds Bush tower is quite close to Grenfell tower, but in a different borough.


I wouldn't put that panel on a dog kennel. I'm pretty shocked that you can get away with cladding as poorly specced as that. There is also no way it could be fire rated so how the hell can a building be clad like that?

Quote:
The panels comprised a 17-23mm plywood board, covered by blue polystyrene foam, 1mm steel sheet and decorative white paint
When exposed to high flames, the polystyrene foam melted away, causing the metal sheet to fall and exposing the foam and wood to the flames


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:42 pm 
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I know nothing of domestic fire investigations:

Will the KCTMO paper documents and servers be immediately quarantined in a similar manner to some air accident investigations? Or are the protocols more lax for domestic accidents? What's the process for ascertaining cause?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Plato'sCave wrote:
I know nothing of domestic fire investigations:

Will the KCTMO paper documents and servers be immediately quarantined in a similar manner to some air accident investigations? Or are the protocols more lax for domestic accidents? What's the process for ascertaining cause?


It is the coroner who determines cause in an inquest, I think, unless it is a criminal case


Last edited by mikerob on Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Saint wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


It's slipped their attention that Corbyn's new law wouldn't have applied here, as the owner was the local council?

However pretty shameless stuff all round


jayz

tragic event - but lefties having a pop at Tories about this is pretty disgraceful. A return shot would be "Labour only took control of this area a few days ago and already they have burnt 6+ of their own voters to death" or "the Majority was only 43 in this borough so Jezza was lucky this didn't happen a week ago"


unfortunately this all makes me feel even more so that the less (local) Governments have to do with running things, the better.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Deadtigers wrote:
the rich landlords and the paid off politicians that allowed this to happen can go to hell. Tragic is not even a word.

RIP to all the innocent people that died.



Before rushing headlong into a thread to score political points take the time to actually know the facts. Moron.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


If in doubt, blame it on the Tories :thumbup: corbynistas do some pretty incredible mental gymnastics


I don't think Grenfall Tower was owned by private landlords.

I don't think the issue was damp walls caused by condensation.

Anyone explain how this all works because KCTMO is a Ltd company. Interesting accounts too
- started in '10 and first year turnover £11m with wage bill of £2.7m. Assume turnover is from rents?
- last year turnover was £17m with expenditure of £4.5m leaving gross profit of £13m....... and wage bill had expanded to £11.5m



Quote:
About us
In the early 1990s, the tenants and leaseholders of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea decided to pursue their legal right to manage their own homes. Following two separate ballots in 1994 and 1995, the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO) was established on 1 April 1996 and the responsibility for managing 9,760 properties passed from The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea to the Tenant Management Organisation.

The Council still owns the properties and retains responsibility for strategic housing policies and homeless people. The relationship between KCTMO and the Council is governed by a Management Agreement, which covers all areas of the landlord business. Whilst KCTMO still enjoys a close working relationship with the Council, it is a completely separate company.

In 2002 KCTMO took over the responsibility for major capital works from the Council to access extra resources and funding to enable KCTMO to bring the properties up to the Decent Homes Standard.

KCTMO is managed by a Board of Directors comprising of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. The aims of the organisation are numerous, as set out by strategic objectives in a business plan each year.

KCTMO is a company limited by guarantee with members whose main residence is in Council owned or leasehold accommodation. There are currently over 4,500 members of KCTMO, and we actively encourage residents to become members. If you are interested in becoming a member, please visit the KCTMO Membership section of this website.

The Board meets on a regular basis to monitor how well KCTMO is doing, agree plans for the future and decide on policies. Board members are also involved in committees, sub-committees, working groups and panels. Board members are elected for three years. They are not paid for their work and are not allowed to do paid professional work for KCTMO.

A Chief Executive, appointed by the Board, has overall responsibility for the successful operation of KCTMO, and for ensuring that the Board's decisions and policies are carried out.

At the time of the transfer of management responsibility to KCTMO, approximately 18% of the properties had been sold on long leases. Many of these had been bought under the Right to Buy legislation, first introduced in 1980, although for many years before the Royal Borough had been using its discretionary powers to sell property to its existing tenants. Many residents who purchased under the Right to Buy legislation have since sold on their properties and a large number of our leases are held by residents who have bought on the open market. These residents continue to be subject to the terms of the original lease.


It's not entirely clear from their financial statements what they do with any profits, but the implication is that the money is held for subsequent investment


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Watching Bercow speak to MPs, does he always speak to them so slowly and clearly as if they have special needs.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Boobs not Moobs wrote:
Watching Bercow speak to MPs, does he always speak to them so slowly and clearly as if they have special needs.

Well a lot of them are Tories


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:48 pm 
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sewa wrote:
Boobs not Moobs wrote:
Watching Bercow speak to MPs, does he always speak to them so slowly and clearly as if they have special needs.

Well a lot of them are Tories

Not as many as there were though


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:54 pm 
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theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:04 pm 
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12 now :(


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:04 pm 
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12 dead confirmed, expected to rise.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:05 pm 
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12 people now confirmed dead and sure to rise.

This is probably the worst case scenario for a high rise fire possible with the apparent shoddy building materials, complete lack of a fire alarm and the fire starting at 1am on a weekday.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Poor souls. RIP.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Rumham wrote:
12 people now confirmed dead and sure to rise.

This is probably the worst case scenario for a high rise fire possible with the apparent shoddy building materials, complete lack of a fire alarm and the fire starting at 1am on a weekday.

It's hard to think of a worse case scenario.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:38 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


How is he trying to do that? And I personally think the deaths of a load of people in local authority housing is inherently political anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:46 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.

And Theresa May didn't after the Manchester and Borough terrorist attacks?
Her new Chief of Staff will have some serious questions to answer. As housing minister in May's government, Barwell promised to publish a report last year on exactly this subject. No report has yet surfaced.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Safety in social housing is most definitely a political issue. But that's only after 1) the people are helped fully and 2) an unhindered open investigation is concluded into the causal factors.

There can be no secrecy in the search for relevant facts in this case.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
dynamo_kev wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
18ChinsOfChinatown wrote:
People in buildings adjacent to the tower, claiming to have witnessed people jumping from their apartment windows to escape the blaze. Horrific.

:((
Echoes of the Joelma one when I was much younger.

Always said that if I lived in a block, I'd own a sport 'chute! On a more practical level, given that smoke kills most people (and may have prevented people escaping their flats here?), why more thought isn't given to cheap smoke masks.


I remember thinking this after 9/11. Difficult and dangerous to jump from such a low height, you'd need an attached line to pull the chute out as you fell.

I live in a third story apartment and have sometimes thought of buying a rope ladder which could be attached to the inside wall underneath one of the main windows.

All true. Sports 'chutes do open quickly AFAIK: someone I know uses them for BASE jumping. Mind you, he wrecked his knee 2 weeks ago! But faced with the definite of burning or doing a Homer Simpson type "bounce down the side of something", I'd take my chances.

Rope ladders definitely one thought for lower floors. We looked at one for work but the thickness of the old walls here meant none of the designs we saw permitted the "hooking bit" to work.

I never stay in higher floors in hotels. I check beforehand and change rooms if necessary. Figure being roused from sleep (or not at all) adds a time factor in that I would like to eliminate.


I remember a story told by a person who was inside one of the Towers during 9/11 - he said he was able to escape with few mates because they decided to move despite being urged to wait for rescue team; they all took the elevator instead and went straight to the basement.
I do not know if this was a true story however.

Horrible...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:57 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


I don't think Corbyn is, but his rabid fluffers are on the case , for sure


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:59 pm 
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I used to live on the 10th floor of one of these high-rises. You always know that if a fire happens below you're probably in serious trouble. It's something that crossed your mind very often.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


I don't think Corbyn is, but his rabid fluffers are on the case , for sure


He's saying austerity is responsible for the fire.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:12 pm 
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EverReady wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


How is he trying to do that? And I personally think the deaths of a load of people in local authority housing is inherently political anyway.


Actually, I think Trance is the one trying to score points here.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Enzedder wrote:
EverReady wrote:
TranceNRG wrote:
theo wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
And now this is doing the FB rounds. :?

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/


Morons.


And Corbyn trying to score political points out of this tragedy and utterly despicable, shameless man.


How is he trying to do that? And I personally think the deaths of a load of people in local authority housing is inherently political anyway.


Actually, I think Trance is the one trying to score points here.


Come off it

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/k ... l-funding/

This is after blaming Conservative government's 'austerity' for terror attacks.


Last edited by TranceNRG on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Image

It's a beast.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:36 pm 
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TranceNRG wrote:

Come off it

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/k ... l-funding/

This is after blaming Conservative government's 'austerity' for terror attacks.


Did you listen to that interview or see him interviewed elsewhere today? Did you hear what he said? Did you fûck.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:39 pm 
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I can't see how an interlinked fire alarm system would work? They would have to be heat detectors or the people smoking and burning food would be constantly emptying the building on false alarms- the issue here is that they will have a top notch fire door so instructions to remain inside, but the fire was outside the building. Proper nightmare.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:44 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I can't see how an interlinked fire alarm system would work? They would have to be heat detectors or the people smoking and burning food would be constantly emptying the building on false alarms- the issue here is that they will have a top notch fire door so instructions to remain inside, but the fire was outside the building. Proper nightmare.


what is the highest rating fire door ?

2 hours ?

even if the fire wasn't on the outside, i'd have thought it would be a struggle to rescue everyone off 24 floors in 2 hours.


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