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 Post subject: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:43 pm 
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When did this go out of fashion? As in, the concerted tactic of dribbling the ball, usually by a pack of forwards. It's often referred to in early accounts of the game and was still being used by the ABs against the Lions in the 50's in the video I just watched.

Guessing it's much harder now with more elongated balls.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:51 pm 
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Woddy wrote:
When did this go out of fashion? As in, the concerted tactic of dribbling the ball, usually by a pack of forwards. It's often referred to in early accounts of the game and was still being used by the ABs against the Lions in the 50's in the video I just watched.

Guessing it's much harder now with more elongated balls.


Also easier to dive on a ball today without fear of 8 oppo forwards using you as a doormat.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm 
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https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-un ... -1-3264520


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:09 pm 
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Many thanks, very interesting article. Only problem is I hope it doesn't kill what I hoped would become a good discussion point!

The article mentioned an old tackle law that I cannot remember at all.

"There was another reason why dribbling went out of fashion, and this was the worst law change ever devised and enacted by the game’s legislators: the removal of the requirement to play the ball with the foot after a tackle. Many of the problems at what we now call the breakdown stem from this law change. The point is that when you had to play the ball with the foot after a tackle, it was regularly taken away from the men on the ground, the tackled player and the tackler."


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Woddy wrote:
Many thanks, very interesting article. Only problem is I hope it doesn't kill what I hoped would become a good discussion point!

The article mentioned an old tackle law that I cannot remember at all.

"There was another reason why dribbling went out of fashion, and this was the worst law change ever devised and enacted by the game’s legislators: the removal of the requirement to play the ball with the foot after a tackle. Many of the problems at what we now call the breakdown stem from this law change. The point is that when you had to play the ball with the foot after a tackle, it was regularly taken away from the men on the ground, the tackled player and the tackler."

I’m sure OB can tell us more, but the obvious problem there is that presumably when they played the ball with the foot it wasn’t uncommon that they would play the man with the foot “incidentally” at the same time.

I’ve seen the old foot rushes in old game video, and really the crucial difference between those days and these is how much teams retain possession now. The foot rush was a gain in territory, but the ball would often end up in the opposition fullback’s arms. A modern fullback would have no fear of catching a ball with a second row or 2 bearing down on him.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:27 pm 
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I'm sure people were "accidentally" caught by flying boots from time to time, just as they are now with flying shoulders and knees at the breakdown.

I wasn't advocating any reversion to old laws: genuinely, I had never heard of the "play with foot after tackle" rule, and I've been playing since 1981.

My original query was just to find out when the dribble or footrush finally died out as a concerted tactic. As a subsidiary point, I was also hoping to prompt debate about whether it could have any useful place in the modern game. A bit more variety in play is always a good thing. I suspect that you're right that the need to keep possession being paramount would make it unpalatable, as well as the article's point that rugby has become much more of a handling game even for forwards, who would need to re-train to get the footskills required for dribbling.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:48 pm 
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I think lots of stuff within the laws are still potentially applicable if you've got the people and buy-in to do it. There's a certain degree of conservatism at the pros, and I understand that jobs are on the line ...

... but why not try something like it in your amateur club?

I've thought - if you have a lighter no 8, and their defence is pretty good - why not try the dribbling rush off a scrum 10m from goal? Even if you don't get a clean nudge in between defenders and straight into goal, I don't think amateurs are as likely as pros to toss themselves on a loose ball that someone's about to hack on.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:00 pm 
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DOB wrote:
Woddy wrote:
Many thanks, very interesting article. Only problem is I hope it doesn't kill what I hoped would become a good discussion point!

The article mentioned an old tackle law that I cannot remember at all.

"There was another reason why dribbling went out of fashion, and this was the worst law change ever devised and enacted by the game’s legislators: the removal of the requirement to play the ball with the foot after a tackle. Many of the problems at what we now call the breakdown stem from this law change. The point is that when you had to play the ball with the foot after a tackle, it was regularly taken away from the men on the ground, the tackled player and the tackler."

I’m sure OB can tell us more, but the obvious problem there is that presumably when they played the ball with the foot it wasn’t uncommon that they would play the man with the foot “incidentally” at the same time.

I’ve seen the old foot rushes in old game video, and really the crucial difference between those days and these is how much teams retain possession now. The foot rush was a gain in territory, but the ball would often end up in the opposition fullback’s arms. A modern fullback would have no fear of catching a ball with a second row or 2 bearing down on him.

Scrums and lineouts were 50/50 lotteries as well, so the consequences of knocking on, going into touch weren't as draconian.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:03 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
I think lots of stuff within the laws are still potentially applicable if you've got the people and buy-in to do it. There's a certain degree of conservatism at the pros, and I understand that jobs are on the line ...

... but why not try something like it in your amateur club?

I've thought - if you have a lighter no 8, and their defence is pretty good - why not try the dribbling rush off a scrum 10m from goal? Even if you don't get a clean nudge in between defenders and straight into goal, I don't think amateurs are as likely as pros to toss themselves on a loose ball that someone's about to hack on.

Image

Can't control where an oval ball will bounce. And with limited defence behind the on rushing pack lots of room for a counter attack.

Remember foot rushes hark back to the days of heavy pitches, and the old leather balls that were more spherical than oval, and got heavier in the wet.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:57 pm 
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I coached a player who once grubbered through midfield and then nudged it around the full back. Picked it up and ran it in after one more nudge. Had a bit of a soccer background but was no star. Maybe more luck than skill, but if you never try, you’ll never know.

League do little grubbers from short range all the time. Just have to fall on it goal. If defence happen to get hold of it, I’d think they’d be more likely to set up an ‘exit’ than run it out. They fall on it, our scrum again.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:43 pm 
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Nieghorn wrote:
I coached a player who once grubbered through midfield and then nudged it around the full back. Picked it up and ran it in after one more nudge. Had a bit of a soccer background but was no star. Maybe more luck than skill, but if you never try, you’ll never know.

League do little grubbers from short range all the time. Just have to fall on it goal. If defence happen to get hold of it, I’d think they’d be more likely to set up an ‘exit’ than run it out. They fall on it, our scrum again.

League don't have sweepers.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:26 pm 
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Is "falling on the ball" not still prohibited in rugby's current laws ?


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:34 pm 
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Wilson's Toffee wrote:
Is "falling on the ball" not still prohibited in rugby's current laws ?

Nope. You can’t fall on a player who goes to ground to collect a loose ball.....


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:48 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
Nieghorn wrote:
I coached a player who once grubbered through midfield and then nudged it around the full back. Picked it up and ran it in after one more nudge. Had a bit of a soccer background but was no star. Maybe more luck than skill, but if you never try, you’ll never know.

League do little grubbers from short range all the time. Just have to fall on it goal. If defence happen to get hold of it, I’d think they’d be more likely to set up an ‘exit’ than run it out. They fall on it, our scrum again.

League don't have sweepers.


Union doesn't always have them in place ... https://youtu.be/LHYQJdU5a2E?t=108


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:03 pm 
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I was shit when I played at school. Was in the 16Ds. This new guy came to school who used to play soccer. Stocky fellow who could kick the ball a mile. We played a match against another school and were giving them a bit of a pasting which was weird because our school was shit. He was launching penalties from everywhere. Just placing the ball, walking back an arbitrary number of steps and then launching the ball 40-45m. After one try he went to kick off (days when you place kicked instead of dropping) and kicked the ball 10m, chased after it and dribbled the ball through the entire opposition before dotting down for a try. I reckon half the players had no idea what was going on. Two weeks later he was in the First XV.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:26 pm 
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The requirement to play the ball with the foot after a tackle was dropped in 1958. Those against claimed that it would slow the game down if players had to stop to pick up the ball.

I have a 1954 official RFU Training manual which has a whole section on dribbling the ball, but I don't remember it ever being taught at school. Dribbling was apparently a favourite tactic of the Scots.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:11 am 
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OB.. wrote:
Dribbling was apparently a favourite tactic of the Scots.


Yes, but less about the fans and more about the players and their tactics please.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:57 am 
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Like most changes it was a slow change, from foot skills to handling.
The most obvious change that moved things in that direction has got to be the change from leather to synthetic balls. Id reckon even twenty years or more from the game and never having much skill I could out hand out handle a modern skilled player if using a soggy wet leather ball playing on a field with six inches of mud. Instinct would prevent me touching the ball with my hands.
The reference to mud then brings up the second change. The grounds these days are far superior to "the old days". Both in wet and Dry conditions the surface is far more predictable and player friendly.


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:31 am 
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Thomas wrote:
OB.. wrote:
Dribbling was apparently a favourite tactic of the Scots.


Yes, but less about the fans and more about the players and their tactics please.


Nice .

I was reading about Ron Hemi a while ago and wondered about dribbling when they said it was a speciality of his , looks like it was on its way out after his career ended
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/a ... d=11208992


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:42 am 
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OB.. wrote:
The requirement to play the ball with the foot after a tackle was dropped in 1958. Those against claimed that it would slow the game down if players had to stop to pick up the ball.

I have a 1954 official RFU Training manual which has a whole section on dribbling the ball, but I don't remember it ever being taught at school. Dribbling was apparently a favourite tactic of the Scots.

Feet Scotland, feet!


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 Post subject: Re: Dribbling
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:31 am 
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Perhaps from a by-gone period and version of the sport and unsuited to the modern game for the reasons posted above. However, it would be fascinating if someone tried it properly or came up with another different approach to playing.

Any diversity in tactics must be welcome, especially if it gets us away from perpetual one-out hits from 2m gains - as that Scottish article also commented.

Any other potential tactics out there?


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