Gatland's big choice at 10

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Jake
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

Frodder wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:
He started there for England twice if that helps.
That's interesting, particularly given that ESPN has only got him down as starting once for England. Against Italy.

Strong analysis.
Apologies, you are right, but he has come on at 13 rather than 12 on a number of occassions.
You're right. 16min against Wales, and 23min against Scotland.

So that's less than a game and a half of international rugby at 13, against the 3 worst teams in the 6N, and you want him starting there against NZ?

You're going to need to help me out here, because I'm not seeing the case.
He's a journo don't you know
I think gievn the paucity of options we have there and the fact Gatland hates JJ I am fine with it.

If you disagree, fine.
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spanks
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by spanks »

Hawk97 wrote:
Crash_12 wrote:Maybe now, but 2009-2013 Roberts was unbelievably good. World class.
Yeah but he was pretty one-dimensional, wasn't he. That dimension was world class, for sure.
They're different players and you can definitely tell Te'o comes from a League background.

Just because a player can step and bosh doesn't mean he's not one dimensional, the way in which he plays determines whether he's one dimensional.

Not sure I've seen Te'o pass the ball on the Lions tour.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Hawk97 »

spanks wrote:
Hawk97 wrote:
Crash_12 wrote:Maybe now, but 2009-2013 Roberts was unbelievably good. World class.
Yeah but he was pretty one-dimensional, wasn't he. That dimension was world class, for sure.
They're different players and you can definitely tell Te'o comes from a League background.

Just because a player can step and bosh doesn't mean he's not one dimensional, the way in which he plays determines whether he's one dimensional.

Not sure I've seen Te'o pass the ball on the Lions tour.
He assisted three tries in the 6N for England. Two of them were just down-the-line plays, but he passed the ball which lead to a try...
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Jake
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
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Da iawn diolch
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:
Frodder wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote: That's interesting, particularly given that ESPN has only got him down as starting once for England. Against Italy.

Strong analysis.
Apologies, you are right, but he has come on at 13 rather than 12 on a number of occassions.
You're right. 16min against Wales, and 23min against Scotland.

So that's less than a game and a half of international rugby at 13, against the 3 worst teams in the 6N, and you want him starting there against NZ?

You're going to need to help me out here, because I'm not seeing the case.
He's a journo don't you know
I think gievn the paucity of options we have there and the fact Gatland hates JJ I am fine with it.

If you disagree, fine.
I disagree. But I think you saw that coming.
We don't have a "paucity of options". We've got three first-choice international 13s who are all better (and more experienced) in that position than Te'o. In fact, if you include Payne and North in that equation, we've got 5 players with more international experience at 13 than Te'o. :lol:

Other than 'for the sake of controversy', I can't see why we're even talking about it.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by cubby boi »

We could have a poll for the 13 position, but the Irish would swarm it and vote Payne :lol:
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Da iawn diolch
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
But barely at all in his latter times at Leinster, for Worcester, or for England.
What do you know that all those excellent coaches don't?
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Jake
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
But barely at all in his latter times at Leinster, for Worcester, or for England.
What do you know that all those excellent coaches don't?
He remains an option at 13 for England, where he has ended up in more tests than he has 12 and that is also a fact.

Assuming that Sexton and Farrell would start a test, out of all the centres on tour, Te'o's been the best of them and has played more test rugby at 13 than he has at 12.

And we have 2 first choice international 13's, not 3, one of whom Gatland just doesn't rate and the other, Davies, hasn't really been at the top of his game since before the RWC.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
But barely at all in his latter times at Leinster, for Worcester, or for England.
What do you know that all those excellent coaches don't?
He remains an option at 13 for England, where he has ended up in more tests than he has 12 and that is also a fact.

Assuming that Sexton and Farrell would start a test, out of all the centres on tour, Te'o's been the best of them and has played more test rugby at 13 than he has at 12.

And we have 2 first choice international 13's, not 3, one of whom Gatland just doesn't rate and the other, Davies, hasn't really been at the top of his game since before the RWC.
:lol:
Your selective quoting of facts is hilarious. For a 'journalist', you're not hugely persuasive.
The (uncorrupted) facts:
- Te'o has played hardly any minutes at 13 for his club this season
- Te'o has played less than a match and a half of international rugby at 13
- There are 5 guys on tour who have more experience at 13 internationally (and at club level) than him
- Jon Davies played an instrumental role at 13 in driving a backline which tore through two HC semi-final teams in the Pro12 final stages

I really like Te'o, and think he's put his hand up higher than all centres on tour. But he's not a natural 13. Even his coaches agree with that. In fact, yours is the lone voice in that camp, which makes me think that this is some kind of elaborate troll.

I would be happy with any one of JD/JJ/RH at 13 for the tests (accompanying Te'o at 12), as each has the talent to make it happen on their day. It's down to the next two games for one of them to stand up.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Crash_12 »

Hawk97 wrote:
Crash_12 wrote:Maybe now, but 2009-2013 Roberts was unbelievably good. World class.
Yeah but he was pretty one-dimensional, wasn't he. That dimension was world class, for sure.
Lions 2009. Unreal combinaton with BOD. Lots of offloading.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
But barely at all in his latter times at Leinster, for Worcester, or for England.
What do you know that all those excellent coaches don't?
He remains an option at 13 for England, where he has ended up in more tests than he has 12 and that is also a fact.

Assuming that Sexton and Farrell would start a test, out of all the centres on tour, Te'o's been the best of them and has played more test rugby at 13 than he has at 12.

And we have 2 first choice international 13's, not 3, one of whom Gatland just doesn't rate and the other, Davies, hasn't really been at the top of his game since before the RWC.
:lol:
Your selective quoting of facts is hilarious. For a 'journalist', you're not hugely persuasive.
The (uncorrupted) facts:
- Te'o has played hardly any minutes at 13 for his club this season
- Te'o has played less than a match and a half of international rugby at 13
- There are 5 guys on tour who have more experience at 13 internationally (and at club level) than him
- Jon Davies played an instrumental role at 13 in driving a backline which tore through two HC semi-final teams in the Pro12 final stages

I really like Te'o, and think he's put his hand up higher than all centres on tour. But he's not a natural 13. Even his coaches agree with that. In fact, yours is the lone voice in that camp, which makes me think that this is some kind of elaborate troll.

I would be happy with any one of JD/JJ/RH at 13 for the tests (accompanying Te'o at 12), as each has the talent to make it happen on their day. It's down to the next two games for one of them to stand up.
So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by hermie »

Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:Re Te'o and playing him at 13, the more I think about his skill set the more I believe he's more suited to 13 than 12.

He's not a natural distributor like Greenwood was or Farrell is, and his skillset is about pace and power, and esp in English set ups, 13 is a more natural fit for him and indeed, he started at 13 for Leinster in the first place and played there loads of times for them.
But barely at all in his latter times at Leinster, for Worcester, or for England.
What do you know that all those excellent coaches don't?
He remains an option at 13 for England, where he has ended up in more tests than he has 12 and that is also a fact.

Assuming that Sexton and Farrell would start a test, out of all the centres on tour, Te'o's been the best of them and has played more test rugby at 13 than he has at 12.

And we have 2 first choice international 13's, not 3, one of whom Gatland just doesn't rate and the other, Davies, hasn't really been at the top of his game since before the RWC.
:lol:
Your selective quoting of facts is hilarious. For a 'journalist', you're not hugely persuasive.
The (uncorrupted) facts:
- Te'o has played hardly any minutes at 13 for his club this season
- Te'o has played less than a match and a half of international rugby at 13
- There are 5 guys on tour who have more experience at 13 internationally (and at club level) than him
- Jon Davies played an instrumental role at 13 in driving a backline which tore through two HC semi-final teams in the Pro12 final stages

I really like Te'o, and think he's put his hand up higher than all centres on tour. But he's not a natural 13. Even his coaches agree with that. In fact, yours is the lone voice in that camp, which makes me think that this is some kind of elaborate troll.

I would be happy with any one of JD/JJ/RH at 13 for the tests (accompanying Te'o at 12), as each has the talent to make it happen on their day. It's down to the next two games for one of them to stand up.
Te'o has played more and more recently at 13 than Henshaw. JJ isn't within an arse's roar of the team after his shambolic defensive display against the Highlanders. Farrell clearly doesn't rate him in any case as Gatland had to over rule his backroom to even select him in the first place. But then you think Abendannon is a world class defender...
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

hermie wrote: Te'o has played more and more recently at 13 than Henshaw. JJ isn't within an arse's roar of the team after his shambolic defensive display against the Highlanders. Farrell clearly doesn't rate him in any case as Gatland had to over rule his backroom to even select him in the first place. But then you think Abendannon is a world class defender...
I must have missed that little gem. Even Bendy wouldn't claim that himself!
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
I'd play Henshaw in a position that he has more (and more recent) experience than Te'o. You seem to be the only person who thinks that's unreasonable.
I admire your obvious 'vision', spotting the blindingly obvious in Te'o that world-class coaches have failed to see. :lol:

Given that you didn't even actually know how many starts Te'o had made for England and in which position ('journo' 101, i would have assumed), can I assume you didn't watch the Scarlets in the Pro12 semi or final? It would stand to reason...
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
I'd play Henshaw in a position that he has more (and more recent) experience than Te'o. You seem to be the only person who thinks that's unreasonable.
I admire your obvious 'vision', spotting the blindingly obvious in Te'o that world-class coaches have failed to see. :lol:

Given that you didn't even actually know how many starts Te'o had made for England and in which position ('journo' 101, i would have assumed), can I assume you didn't watch the Scarlets in the Pro12 semi or final? It would stand to reason...
Why would I watch the Scarlets in a second rate tournament? No, I didn't. I saw them once last year and that was only because we'd finished the box set of line of duty.

And again, Eddie Jones has played Te'o at 13 more times than he had 12.

I don't think it unreasonable to play Henshaw at 13 in the same way that I don't think it unreasonable to play Te'o there.

I think the truth is JD gives you a hard on and he's your pin-up boy. I get that- good looking lad.

Did you really say Bendy is a world class defender?

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Silvio Berlusconi »

cubby boi wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Jake wrote:The only time the Lions backline looked cohesive and threatening was when Sexton and Farrell ended up together v Crusaders.

I hope he goes JS/OF/Teo

I think he'll go OF/RH/JD2 from what I've heard.
Hopefully RH is Rob Henderson
Rob Howley, I can only assume.
L. Ron Hubbard
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by JM2K6 »

Line of Duty was massively overrated.
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Jake
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Jake »

JM2K6 wrote:Line of Duty was massively overrated.
So was the f**king Pro12 featuring the Scarlets.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Frodder »

Jake wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Line of Duty was massively overrated.
So was the f**king Pro12 featuring the Scarlets.
But but you only saw them once....
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Da iawn diolch
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
I'd play Henshaw in a position that he has more (and more recent) experience than Te'o. You seem to be the only person who thinks that's unreasonable.
I admire your obvious 'vision', spotting the blindingly obvious in Te'o that world-class coaches have failed to see. :lol:

Given that you didn't even actually know how many starts Te'o had made for England and in which position ('journo' 101, i would have assumed), can I assume you didn't watch the Scarlets in the Pro12 semi or final? It would stand to reason...
Why would I watch the Scarlets in a second rate tournament? No, I didn't. I saw them once last year and that was only because we'd finished the box set of line of duty.

And again, Eddie Jones has played Te'o at 13 more times than he had 12.

I don't think it unreasonable to play Henshaw at 13 in the same way that I don't think it unreasonable to play Te'o there.

I think the truth is JD gives you a hard on and he's your pin-up boy. I get that- good looking lad.

Did you really say Bendy is a world class defender?

:lol: :lol:
You're massively flailing here (citing a conversation I had with someone else as a weak attempt to discredit me), and should probably give up.

Another fake 'fact' to point out - Te'o has played at 13 in 3/8 games for England, so not "more times" as you (yet again) incorrectly state.

This rugby journalism lark must be a doddle if this is the level of knowledge required.
Why on earth would anyone take your ramblings seriously (let alone in a professional capacity) if your basic knowledge of the game is so obviously poor?

The teams the the Scarlets laid waste to were both semi finalists in the biggest club competition in Europe this session. Just because you don't actually watch much rugby (odd for a supposed 'journalist'), doesn't stop them being good teams, and better than all but one of the premiership clubs by the HC yardstick.

Just to reiterate, I've no great bias towards JD. All things being equal, JJ is the more accomplished attacker on his day and Henshaw has more X-factor. It's just that JD is the only recognised 13 who is currently playing to form.

All the emojis in the world can't hide how weak your basic rugby knowledge is in this thread...
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Crash_12 »

Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
I'd play Henshaw in a position that he has more (and more recent) experience than Te'o. You seem to be the only person who thinks that's unreasonable.
I admire your obvious 'vision', spotting the blindingly obvious in Te'o that world-class coaches have failed to see. :lol:

Given that you didn't even actually know how many starts Te'o had made for England and in which position ('journo' 101, i would have assumed), can I assume you didn't watch the Scarlets in the Pro12 semi or final? It would stand to reason...
Why would I watch the Scarlets in a second rate tournament? No, I didn't. I saw them once last year and that was only because we'd finished the box set of line of duty.

And again, Eddie Jones has played Te'o at 13 more times than he had 12.

I don't think it unreasonable to play Henshaw at 13 in the same way that I don't think it unreasonable to play Te'o there.

I think the truth is JD gives you a hard on and he's your pin-up boy. I get that- good looking lad.

Did you really say Bendy is a world class defender?

:lol: :lol:
Didn't have you down as someone who would be dragged into this type of mud slinging at players.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Crash_12 wrote:
Jake wrote:
Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:So, you'd play Henshaw ouy of position, you'd consider North and Payne. I see.

Not a natural 13? So wildly wrong it's untrue. Pace, power. He has those in abundance, yet the key thing needed for 12, distribution, is prob his weakest suit. Hence, England see him mainly as a 13 and so do I, although it's great he can play 12 too.

This is the only instrumental thing JD has done in years.

:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYAbIoe_bw8
I'd play Henshaw in a position that he has more (and more recent) experience than Te'o. You seem to be the only person who thinks that's unreasonable.
I admire your obvious 'vision', spotting the blindingly obvious in Te'o that world-class coaches have failed to see. :lol:

Given that you didn't even actually know how many starts Te'o had made for England and in which position ('journo' 101, i would have assumed), can I assume you didn't watch the Scarlets in the Pro12 semi or final? It would stand to reason...
Why would I watch the Scarlets in a second rate tournament? No, I didn't. I saw them once last year and that was only because we'd finished the box set of line of duty.

And again, Eddie Jones has played Te'o at 13 more times than he had 12.

I don't think it unreasonable to play Henshaw at 13 in the same way that I don't think it unreasonable to play Te'o there.

I think the truth is JD gives you a hard on and he's your pin-up boy. I get that- good looking lad.

Did you really say Bendy is a world class defender?

:lol: :lol:
Didn't have you down as someone who would be dragged into this type of mud slinging at players.
He's desperately grasping to deflect from the litany of basic errors.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by wsurfa »

On current form we might as well pick Sinckler in the centres, at least he can make an outside break...;)
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Hawk97 »

wsurfa wrote:On current form we might as well pick Sinckler in the centres, at least he can make an outside break...;)
Does he have the most metres gained on tour...?
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by wsurfa »

Hawk97 wrote:
wsurfa wrote:On current form we might as well pick Sinckler in the centres, at least he can make an outside break...;)
Does he have the most metres gained on tour...?
Oh god, probably....
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Flametop »

Farrell is such a limited player.
Sexton has to start the second test.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Achahoish »

Flametop wrote:Farrell is such a limited player.
Sexton has to start the second test.
..and put Russell on the bench. You're already a test down what is there to lose?
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Flametop »

Farrell has been shown up.
Teo going off was a mistake.
He may not be the greatest passer but at least he had SBW in his pocket.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by cubby boi »

Flametop wrote:Farrell has been shown up.
Teo going off was a mistake.
He may not be the greatest passer but at least he had SBW in his pocket.
Sexton was hopeless when he came on today. Back to his previous form. Farrell wasn't great today, but we'll have to just hope he's better next week.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Clive Simms »

Would've played Finn Russell there myself
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Flametop »

cubby boi wrote:
Flametop wrote:Farrell has been shown up.
Teo going off was a mistake.
He may not be the greatest passer but at least he had SBW in his pocket.
Sexton was hopeless when he came on today. Back to his previous form. Farrell wasn't great today, but we'll have to just hope he's better next week.
Sexton had Farrell outside him.
Farrell had Teo, so at least he had an option.

Gatland beeds to back Sexton and drop Farrell.
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by Silver »

Flametop wrote:
cubby boi wrote:
Flametop wrote:Farrell has been shown up.
Teo going off was a mistake.
He may not be the greatest passer but at least he had SBW in his pocket.
Sexton was hopeless when he came on today. Back to his previous form. Farrell wasn't great today, but we'll have to just hope he's better next week.
Sexton had Farrell outside him.
Farrell had Teo, so at least he had an option.

Gatland beeds to back Sexton and drop Farrell.
Farrell isn't even close to being a top international FH. So either start him at inside center or he's on the bench. But this highlights a limitation of Gatland as a coach / selector. He only initially selected three FHs and one is playing out of position.
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The Native
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by The Native »

Farrell and Sexton are equally shit.

Biggar is the man you want.

Thankfully he won't get the nod.
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alliswell
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by alliswell »

The Native wrote:Farrell and Sexton are equally shit.

Biggar is the man you want.

Thankfully he won't get the nod.
:uhoh:
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theo
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by theo »

I'd stick with Farrell. Better player overall.
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mr bungle
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Re: Gatland's big choice at 10

Post by mr bungle »

The Native wrote:Farrell and Sexton are equally shit.

Biggar is the man you want.

Thankfully he won't get the nod.
None of them are a good option. Such a key area that had they had some quality there...
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