Planet Rugby Forum

naki wrote:Daly was fine, often superb. As were the whole back three.

People are underestimating how damp it was last night, even Ben fudging Smith couldn't catch the ball

he was by his standards very poor - it was a shame when he had to go off but then I saw BB going to FB and thought "bugger" as I believe he is a bigger threat there.

Hong Kong wrote:

naki wrote:Daly was fine, often superb. As were the whole back three.

People are underestimating how damp it was last night, even Ben fudging Smith couldn't catch the ball

he was by his standards very poor - it was a shame when he had to go off but then I saw BB going to FB and thought "bugger" as I believe he is a bigger threat there.

Yes, even before the headknock he was struggling. Has had a very uneven season

Jeff the Bear wrote:

CrazyIslander wrote:

mr bungle wrote:

Da iawn diolch wrote:Has anyone looked up the stats yet? A couple of lowlights for me:
- The entire tight five carrying only just makes double figures. Horrific.

Remarkable as I reckon Mako carried 5 or so times in the first 20.

I think he was referring to metres gained. The problem there wasn't repeated forward carries to garner momentum.

It must have been obvious on the TV, as it was plain to see at the stadium...but when the All Blacks carried into traffic, they made it over the gainline, whereas (as the stats) prove, we were either hit behind or on the gainline, and kept there.

Tbf, I don't think it's just about the AbB's being bigger/stronger. I was thoroughly impress with the continual angles being taken by the big men. They were always hitting holes, and always going at arms/shoulders.

The ABs try to go around a player rather than through them. Its Retallick's length of limbs and passing rather the his bulk hitting the target which makes him effective. And they step away from contact at the line rather than into it.

freddie111 wrote:Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if already discussed:

Where was the line speed that we saw from the Lions throughout the warm up games? Lions seemed to not commit to it and were half way between drift and blitz with obvious results. I expect this to change in the next game. If it doesn't Lions will get absolutely hammered.

It was largely negated by the ABs deciding to take it up the middle close to the rucks. When they did go wide the Lions were usually already on the back foot.

I suspect, and I don't agree with it, that Daly will be dropped, with Williams moving to wing and Halfpenny going to FB.

Rest of the changes will be confined to the pack. Suspect AWJ will be binned. As will POM. Expect, although do not agree with, Warburton starting instead. Itoje and Calamity Kruis in the secondrow. Henderson or Lawes to the bench.

Worried that Gatland's physicality mantra might see Norths inclusion but hope I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter who he picks mind unless the pack front up and cut the error count. They were bullied yesterday.

henry wrote:I suspect, and I don't agree with it, that Daly will be dropped, with Williams moving to wing and Halfpenny going to FB.

Rest of the changes will be confined to the pack. Suspect AWJ will be binned. As will POM. Expect, although do not agree with, Warburton starting instead. Itoje and Calamity Kruis in the secondrow. Henderson or Lawes to the bench.

Worried that Gatland's physicality mantra might see Norths inclusion but hope I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter who he picks mind unless the pack front up and cut the error count. They were bullied yesterday.

Lawes starting tues with Kruis on the bench so looks like AWJ at least in the 23for Sat

monkeyman4564 wrote:

henry wrote:I suspect, and I don't agree with it, that Daly will be dropped, with Williams moving to wing and Halfpenny going to FB.

Rest of the changes will be confined to the pack. Suspect AWJ will be binned. As will POM. Expect, although do not agree with, Warburton starting instead. Itoje and Calamity Kruis in the secondrow. Henderson or Lawes to the bench.

Worried that Gatland's physicality mantra might see Norths inclusion but hope I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter who he picks mind unless the pack front up and cut the error count. They were bullied yesterday.

Lawes starting tues with Kruis on the bench so looks like AWJ at least in the 23for Sat

Jesus. Don't get it. That said, Kruis deserves to be dropped like a hot rock.

henry wrote:...Kruis deserves to be dropped like a hot rock.

He was poor.

henry wrote:I suspect, and I don't agree with it, that Daly will be dropped, with Williams moving to wing and Halfpenny going to FB.

Rest of the changes will be confined to the pack. Suspect AWJ will be binned. As will POM. Expect, although do not agree with, Warburton starting instead. Itoje and Calamity Kruis in the secondrow. Henderson or Lawes to the bench.

Worried that Gatland's physicality mantra might see Norths inclusion but hope I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter who he picks mind unless the pack front up and cut the error count. They were bullied yesterday.

underlined - as much as that goes against all rational thinking, I fear you are correct.

As for POM - I think that Warbs starting is wrong - pure and simple. I think that folks are being way to harsh on POM and Warbs did not offer much when he came on. Same with Kruis - he had a slightly off day and yes I know this is the Lions and it's a Test match but seriously? Drop him like a sack of spuds just because of one average match? Sheesh! Tough crowd.

As North is starting on Tue, would not expect to see him on Sat

Hong Kong wrote:

henry wrote:I suspect, and I don't agree with it, that Daly will be dropped, with Williams moving to wing and Halfpenny going to FB.

Rest of the changes will be confined to the pack. Suspect AWJ will be binned. As will POM. Expect, although do not agree with, Warburton starting instead. Itoje and Calamity Kruis in the secondrow. Henderson or Lawes to the bench.

Worried that Gatland's physicality mantra might see Norths inclusion but hope I'm wrong.

Doesn't matter who he picks mind unless the pack front up and cut the error count. They were bullied yesterday.

underlined - as much as that goes against all rational thinking, I fear you are correct.

As for POM - I think that Warbs starting is wrong - pure and simple. I think that folks are being way to harsh on POM and Warbs did not offer much when he came on. Same with Kruis - he had a slightly off day and yes I know this is the Lions and it's a Test match but seriously? Drop him like a sack of spuds just because of one average match? Sheesh! Tough crowd.

As North is starting on Tue, would not expect to see him on Sat

Didn't know about North - that is a relief but as Gatland proved with Daly, Williams and Watson, he isn't afraid of playing some players Tuesday and Saturday.

Don't agree with Waburton and Halfpenny but Williams and POM have provided an excuse. POM was quiet and didn't slow down AB ball. He also failed to put in a sufficent defensive shift, stats wise. There's nothing to suggest Warburton will do better but I think Gatland will back him. Same goes for Halfpenny - Williams' couple of errors under the high ball will see him shifted.

As for Kruis, you're being kind to describe it as average. Three missed tackles, got turned over at least twice and gave some soft penalties away. It was grim.

Can't for life of me see how Warburton will make the team. He's miles off form. I'd rather Stander or Haskell on the bench to add ball carrying.

Be a massive shame if the back three are split up as they were the one area that really went well. But it is Gatland so who knows.

Frankly I wouldn't change anything. We created chances. Cut out the handling errors and sort out the defence. We switched off for their first try, Watson jumped in for their second try and Williams dropped the ball for their third. All manageable mistakes.

The error count was too high - possibly due to the weather.

theo wrote:Can't for life of me see how Warburton will make the team. He's miles off form. I'd rather Stander or Haskell on the bench to add ball carrying.

Be a massive shame if the back three are split up as they were the one area that really went well. But it is Gatland so who knows.

Frankly I wouldn't change anything. We created chances. Cut out the handling errors and sort out the defence. We switched off for their first try, Watson jumped in for their second try and Williams dropped the ball for their third. All manageable mistakes.

The error count was too high - possibly due to the weather.

I wouldn't change the team either. He's obviously had the pack in his head for a good while so to just fold on them would be a sign of panic. If he thought these were the right men before then he should stick to his guns. And let's face it, any changes are the shuffling of deck chairs.

theo wrote:Can't for life of me see how Warburton will make the team. He's miles off form. I'd rather Stander or Haskell on the bench to add ball carrying.

Be a massive shame if the back three are split up as they were the one area that really went well. But it is Gatland so who knows.

Frankly I wouldn't change anything. We created chances. Cut out the handling errors and sort out the defence. We switched off for their first try, Watson jumped in for their second try and Williams dropped the ball for their third. All manageable mistakes.

The error count was too high - possibly due to the weather.

Our error count was high too. We also had early injuries and a backline reshuffle, which looked like it took us sometime to regroup.

From a Lions point of view I wouldn't change much as you say. Though I would have any locking combination of these three with one on the bench... Lawes, Itoje and Kruis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYKSMK7o4M8

I stumbled across the full game on YT by the way. Not sure how long it will be up

Da iawn diolch wrote:Has anyone looked up the stats yet? A couple of lowlights for me:
- The entire tight five carrying only just makes double figures. Horrific.
- Faletau made almost as many tackles as the two flankers combined. Abysmal work-rate.
- Murray made more tackles than either flanker, and most of the tight five.
- Some ridiculous numbers/percentages of missed tackles (Daly, Kruis).

Appalling. Once again, bullied on the gain line.

freddie111 wrote:Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if already discussed:

Where was the line speed that we saw from the Lions throughout the warm up games? Lions seemed to not commit to it and were half way between drift and blitz with obvious results. I expect this to change in the next game. If it doesn't Lions will get absolutely hammered.

Imo it's often Itoje and Lawes who have led this line speed, Kruis and AWJ aren't the same player

The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Da iawn diolch wrote:- Some ridiculous numbers/percentages of missed tackles (Daly, Kruis).

Daly missed one tackle according to the stats, which isn't "ridiculous".

Kruis missed three, which is poor, but made 16. So 84% tackle success rate.
Watson: 3/1 / 75%
Davies: 6/2 / 75%
Farrell: 11/2 / 85%
Murray: 15/3 / 83%
Mako: 12/2 / 86%
George: 20/2 / 91%

Everyone else in the starting team in the 90s or 100%.

So a bit strange to pick out guys like Watson or Daly (for one missed tackle) or Kruis (who made a shedload of tackles - 3rd highest in the team behind Faletau and George). That's just the nature of the Farrell/Saracens style defence. We defended really quite well, can't see many teams holding the ABs to that halftime score after that level of attacking class.

Turnovers conceded - poor kicks, poor passes, and knock-ons - were a much bigger problem.

Liam Williams 4, Kruis 3, Faletau 2, Murray 2, Daly 2, Watson 2, and Te'o, Vunipola, George, Furlong, AWJ, POM, Sexton all gave away 1. 22 vs 14 on the ABs side, where theirs were concentrated in the halfbacks + fullback. As I've said a few times before, wet weather doesn't help narrow the gap with the All Blacks, it exposes the skill gap even further.

Discipline is a tougher one, very rarely did I think we were giving away dumb penalties. SOB and Faletau managed 5 penalties between them, though.

Don't have much to say as its already been said.

Cant believe Gatland was surprised the way the AB forwards came out. The whole of NZ has been saying they would come out firing. Plus the AB's never back down from a challenge and would have seen what happened in the lead up games. The Lions forwards look pedestrian, took to long to get off the deck and just had a poor attitude to the collision.

That was a poor effort by the Lions and I wonder if they thought it was going to be a cakewalk, the dropped ball and mistakes suggests poor mindset prior to the game.

My estimation of Gatland and his coaching team has dropped a fair bit now.

Sonny Blount wrote:All Blacks defence is bullshit.

Need Perenara on now.

Do you contribute anything other than criticism of A Smith/ Cruden? You're a broken record.

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

Well it's that old adage in pro Rugby: you only ever beat the AB by playing smothering, relentless defense. There are those rare occasions where France for e.g. beat them a couple of times about 40-30, but that's mercurial France for you. The rest of the time, it's France RWC 2007 Dusautoir's 38 tackles, it's England with their most energy-driven game of the decade in 2012, it's Ireland smothering them most recently... you've got to get in their grins, and display huge momentum. Lions ought to really, really carve this at the center of their minds. I know it's a long tour with mid-week games and shit, but Test Rugby is all about energy and momentum, and if you're going to beat the AB you're going to have to do more than execute a decent gameplan like a day at the office.

I thought the Lions were a hungry beast ?

If this goes on, AB are just going to take each game at a time, methodically dismantle their opponent, and say thank you very much see you in 12 years, best of luck.

No discussion about the Lions inability to cash in on the losses of Ben Smith, Ryan Crotty and Jerome Kaino through injury in the first half. This was extremely disruptive to the ABs, yet the Lions weren't able to effectively use this to their advantage. Losing three starting players to injury in the first half of a game is rare, and I'd be surprised if it happens to either team for the remainder of the series.

Related to this, I think Steve Hansen was lucky to escape without any coverage for wing/fullback on his bench. I am not a fan of moving the world's best player, Beaudan Barrett, away from his preferred and best position 25 minutes into a huge test match simply because he was our fullback cover.

Ali's Choice wrote:No discussion about the Lions inability to cash in on the losses of Ben Smith, Ryan Crotty and Jerome Kaino through injury in the first half. This was extremely disruptive to the ABs, yet the Lions weren't able to effectively use this to their advantage. Losing three starting players to injury in the first half of a game is rare, and I'd be surprised if it happens to either team for the remainder of the series.

Related to this, I think Steve Hansen was lucky to escape without any coverage for wing/fullback on his bench. I am not a fan of moving the world's best player, Beaudan Barrett, away from his preferred and best position 25 minutes into a huge test match simply because he was our fullback cover.

The wing/fullback coverage thing really was down to the selection of Crotty. He had to cover his bases for Crotty potentially not being able to complete much of the game, and rightly so. There was no doubting Crotty's ability, but it was always a gamble fitness-wise. If ALB had been selected to start instead, they could have used Jordie Barrett as that versatile utility.

Ali's Choice wrote:No discussion about the Lions inability to cash in on the losses of Ben Smith, Ryan Crotty and Jerome Kaino through injury in the first half. This was extremely disruptive to the ABs, yet the Lions weren't able to effectively use this to their advantage. Losing three starting players to injury in the first half of a game is rare, and I'd be surprised if it happens to either team for the remainder of the series.

Related to this, I think Steve Hansen was lucky to escape without any coverage for wing/fullback on his bench. I am not a fan of moving the world's best player, Beaudan Barrett, away from his preferred and best position 25 minutes into a huge test match simply because he was our fullback cover.

I think the Lions had bigger issues than their inability to capitalise on the opportunity presented by the All Blacks bringing Anton Lienert-Brown on

Teenage_hooker wrote: Just as a matter of interest because this comes up all the time...every time I watch a team play NZ and lose the whole NZ never got out of third gear thing comes up. When have they against a tier 1 opponent in the last 5 years? Serious question.

SA 2014, epic test, both teams were well and truly in 5th gear.

WoodlandsRFC wrote:

Teenage_hooker wrote: Just as a matter of interest because this comes up all the time...every time I watch a team play NZ and lose the whole NZ never got out of third gear thing comes up. When have they against a tier 1 opponent in the last 5 years? Serious question.

SA 2014, epic test, both teams were well and truly in 5th gear.

France WC quarter-final 2015?

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:No discussion about the Lions inability to cash in on the losses of Ben Smith, Ryan Crotty and Jerome Kaino through injury in the first half. This was extremely disruptive to the ABs, yet the Lions weren't able to effectively use this to their advantage. Losing three starting players to injury in the first half of a game is rare, and I'd be surprised if it happens to either team for the remainder of the series.

Related to this, I think Steve Hansen was lucky to escape without any coverage for wing/fullback on his bench. I am not a fan of moving the world's best player, Beaudan Barrett, away from his preferred and best position 25 minutes into a huge test match simply because he was our fullback cover.

I think the Lions had bigger issues than their inability to capitalise on the opportunity presented by the All Blacks bringing Anton Lienert-Brown on

The All Blacks losing three starting players inside the first 40 minutes, which also meant shifting the world's best no.10 away from his preferred position, was a huge advantage to the Lions. Ardie Savea is not a blindside flanker's ring piece.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:No discussion about the Lions inability to cash in on the losses of Ben Smith, Ryan Crotty and Jerome Kaino through injury in the first half. This was extremely disruptive to the ABs, yet the Lions weren't able to effectively use this to their advantage. Losing three starting players to injury in the first half of a game is rare, and I'd be surprised if it happens to either team for the remainder of the series.

Related to this, I think Steve Hansen was lucky to escape without any coverage for wing/fullback on his bench. I am not a fan of moving the world's best player, Beaudan Barrett, away from his preferred and best position 25 minutes into a huge test match simply because he was our fullback cover.

I think the Lions had bigger issues than their inability to capitalise on the opportunity presented by the All Blacks bringing Anton Lienert-Brown on

The All Blacks losing three starting players inside the first 40 minutes, which also meant shifting the world's best no.10 away from his preferred position, was a huge advantage to the Lions. Ardie Savea is not a blindside flanker's ring piece.

I'm not arguing different, but capitalising on something happening with the All Blacks to me implies being in a position to control the game, and the Lions were never in that place

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

The lions tight 5 got bullied. All blacks targeted the area around the ruck to attack and the tight 5 got blown away, looked lost. Then they it turned over in about 3 mauls, lost the odd lineout.

f**king shambles.

Brodie Retallick you big basterd.

Willie Falloon wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

The lions tight 5 got bullied. All blacks targeted the area around the ruck to attack and the tight 5 got blown away, looked lost. Then they it turned over in about 3 mauls, lost the odd lineout.

f**king shambles.

Brodie Retallick you big basterd.

This.

Hawk97 wrote:

Willie Falloon wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

The lions tight 5 got bullied. All blacks targeted the area around the ruck to attack and the tight 5 got blown away, looked lost. Then they it turned over in about 3 mauls, lost the odd lineout.

f**king shambles.

Brodie Retallick you big basterd.

This.

How do we address this?

Personnel changes? I wouldn't shift any of the frontrow, personally. Secondrow, I'd bin AWJ and bring in Itoje. Lawes or Henderson to the bench. Kruis is a lucky fecker but for continuity and lineout sake, I'd give him another chance. Backrow? Think we're screwed. No six has stood up. Wouldn't drop SOB or Faletau. Stander is one option. Maybe Haskell to the bench. Both are reputation calls.

Stander has provided go-forward this tour, think there's a case for him to be brought in for the bench at least - Faletau looked a bit gassed by the 70 minute mark

henry wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:

Willie Falloon wrote:

Chuckles1188 wrote:

Hawk97 wrote:The best proponents of our defensive line speed have been Itoje, Tipuric and Lawes. Kruis, AWJ, POM and SOB just aren't anywhere near as quick.

Was astonished by how passive the Lions' defending was

The lions tight 5 got bullied. All blacks targeted the area around the ruck to attack and the tight 5 got blown away, looked lost. Then they it turned over in about 3 mauls, lost the odd lineout.

f**king shambles.

Brodie Retallick you big basterd.

This.

How do we address this?

Personnel changes? I wouldn't shift any of the frontrow, personally. Secondrow, I'd bin AWJ and bring in Itoje. Lawes or Henderson to the bench. Kruis is a lucky fecker but for continuity and lineout sake, I'd give him another chance. Backrow? Think we're screwed. No six has stood up. Wouldn't drop SOB or Faletau. Stander is one option. Maybe Haskell to the bench. Both are reputation calls.

I wouldn't be shifting much, either. Same as you, Itoje in there somewhere, as he brings the defensive linespeed. I don't think Stander or Haskell would be reputation calls, I think it would be prudent given the obvious lack of muscle up front on Saturday. It was quite surprising to me, to be so out-grunted. Stander or Haskell can at least add some ballast (bench).

Hawk97 wrote: I wouldn't be shifting much, either. Same as you, Itoje in there somewhere, as he brings the defensive linespeed. I don't think Stander or Haskell would be reputation calls, I think it would be prudent given the obvious lack of muscle up front on Saturday. It was quite surprising to me, to be so out-grunted. Stander or Haskell can at least add some ballast (bench).

Stander has had one good game on this tour. Haskell not even that. They've done little to justify a test start. Hence why I think POM got the nod. There is a paucity of options in that area. That said, would be content with either on the bench. Maybe persevere with POM.

Or, left-field idea, try to up the tempo by picking Itoje, shifting SOB to six and start Tipuric.

No chance, then.

Chuckles1188 wrote:Stander has provided go-forward this tour, think there's a case for him to be brought in for the bench at least - Faletau looked a bit gassed by the 70 minute mark

It wont matter a flying feck what gets done with the backrow if the second rows go out and spread the cheeks of their arses like yesterday's pairing did.

henry wrote:

Hawk97 wrote: I wouldn't be shifting much, either. Same as you, Itoje in there somewhere, as he brings the defensive linespeed. I don't think Stander or Haskell would be reputation calls, I think it would be prudent given the obvious lack of muscle up front on Saturday. It was quite surprising to me, to be so out-grunted. Stander or Haskell can at least add some ballast (bench).

Stander has had one good game on this tour. Haskell not even that. They've done little to justify a test start. Hence why I think POM got the nod. There is a paucity of options in that area. That said, would be content with either on the bench. Maybe persevere with POM.

Or, left-field idea, try to up the tempo by picking Itoje, shifting SOB to six and start Tipuric.

No chance, then.

Both been relatively poor, yes. I'd only suggest it to combat how robust the ABs were up front. That genuinely surprised me. Call it a reactionary pick, and for this reason, I don't expect it. Coaches know better.

A. Smith was excellent. Anyone calling for PJ over him is nuts.

As for Dagg...I was expecting more after seeing the frothing about him from some fans. Played well enough, but hardly warranted the knighthood.

AB forwards were excellent. Lions looked unfit and out on their feet.

I thought the Lions went pretty well; seemed to be trying to put in a solid, cohesive performance rather than overhype themselves into Itoje-land and dash around madly leaving gaps for the ABs to exploit.

That said Beauden's evident (smothered) amusement when asked, "Did they [the Lions] bring what you expected?" and references to the quality of the back three while barely containing his mirth suggests the All Blacks weren't expecting much. Wasn't expecting to see him desperately stifling the giggles here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi2S5Etm0Zk
From the 50 second mark.

bimboman wrote:

Razor wrote:Rugby is all we have...apart from Sailing..Sauvignon Blanc...great skiing...humble people....etc etc.

Your Sauvignon Blanc is cats piss. I'd have claimed your Pinots if anything.

Babich do a stunning Pinotage better than a lot of the SA stuff