Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

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booji boy
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Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by booji boy »

Haven't seen much discussion on this. Seemed a ludicrous decision to me. Surely it's better to try and cope with one less back then take on a forward pack like the Lions with only seven forwards. Especially taking off a powerful, bruising ball player like Kaino. WTF was the point of that? And with ALB packing down on the side of the scrum we only had six players in the backline half the time anyway. Crazy decision.

Can anyone shed any light on this? :?
brat
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by brat »

booji boy wrote:Haven't seen much discussion on this. Seemed a ludicrous decision to me. Surely it's better to try and cope with one less back then take on a forward pack like the Lions with only seven forwards. Especially taking off a powerful, bruising ball player like Kaino. WTF was the point of that? And with ALB packing down on the side of the scrum we only had six players in the backline half the time anyway. Crazy decision.

Can anyone shed any light on this? :?
Hansen brain fade
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Jeff the Bear
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Eh, we are discussing it on the Steven Hansen thread. :?

Most seem in agreement however that it was wrong. As I said on that thread, he essentially didn't trust the rush defence to hold out over the course, and instead knackered his pack to protect the outside channels...which made it easier for the Lions to score those tries in the end.
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Zakar
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Zakar »

booji boy wrote:Haven't seen much discussion on this. Seemed a ludicrous decision to me. Surely it's better to try and cope with one less back then take on a forward pack like the Lions with only seven forwards. Especially taking off a powerful, bruising ball player like Kaino. WTF was the point of that? And with ALB packing down on the side of the scrum we only had six players in the backline half the time anyway. Crazy decision.

Can anyone shed any light on this? :?
I would assume that the game plan hinged on attacking the 10-12 channel, and he thought it wasn't worth the risk in changing it up.
SecretAgentMan
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by SecretAgentMan »

Looking for as much speed as possible to offset the numerical disadvantage. Didn't work out, but it was well worth the risk, imo.
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FujiKiwi
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by FujiKiwi »

The decision was made so early! Was it a mistake not just to see how things would pan out for ten minutes first?
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Olddantucker
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Olddantucker »

FujiKiwi wrote:The decision was made so early! Was it a mistake not just to see how things would pan out for ten minutes first?
This.

It seemed too quick a reaction.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by SecretAgentMan »

It was made early to wrong foot the Lions. Worked for a good while too, but they were the better team in the end.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Wilderbeast »

Said it on the Hansen thread. This is the second time Hansen has lost a match after messing with Kaino.
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Mr Mike
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Mr Mike »

I suspect that they had made that sort of decision well before the game, based on patterns developed over a long time. For all of the attention a loss gets, that was a very heroic effort and with a little of good fortune could have been successful. Tremendously proud of the effort of the boys against quality opposition.
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Gospel
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Gospel »

Laumape had a massive positive impact on the game though which helped to build the score to what many might well have considered to be an unassailable lead in those conditions. Who knew the Lions would string some passes together and score a brace of tries after effectively shitting the bed for twenty minutes.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by SecretAgentMan »

Mr Mike wrote:I suspect that they had made that sort of decision well before the game, based on patterns developed over a long time. For all of the attention a loss gets, that was a very heroic effort and with a little of good fortune could have been successful. Tremendously proud of the effort of the boys against quality opposition.
Yep, that was a terrific effort in a losing cause.
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Salient
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Salient »

Zakar wrote:
booji boy wrote:Haven't seen much discussion on this. Seemed a ludicrous decision to me. Surely it's better to try and cope with one less back then take on a forward pack like the Lions with only seven forwards. Especially taking off a powerful, bruising ball player like Kaino. WTF was the point of that? And with ALB packing down on the side of the scrum we only had six players in the backline half the time anyway. Crazy decision.

Can anyone shed any light on this? :?
I would assume that the game plan hinged on attacking the 10-12 channel, and he thought it wasn't worth the risk in changing it up.
Seemed a reasonable idea to me, we lost a ball game by a score, hate to say it - cry me a river booji boy :thumbup:
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booji boy
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by booji boy »

Salient wrote:
Zakar wrote:
booji boy wrote:Haven't seen much discussion on this. Seemed a ludicrous decision to me. Surely it's better to try and cope with one less back then take on a forward pack like the Lions with only seven forwards. Especially taking off a powerful, bruising ball player like Kaino. WTF was the point of that? And with ALB packing down on the side of the scrum we only had six players in the backline half the time anyway. Crazy decision.

Can anyone shed any light on this? :?
I would assume that the game plan hinged on attacking the 10-12 channel, and he thought it wasn't worth the risk in changing it up.
Seemed a reasonable idea to me, we lost a ball game by a score, hate to say it - cry me a river booji boy :thumbup:
Last week we beat them through the forwards. This week we lose a back (thanks to that brainless plum SBW) and they take off a key forward and replace him with an inexperienced inside back. Still can't fathom the logic. Late in the game our scrum was being manhandled leading to Lions penalties. Not surprising with 7 vs 8.
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Flockwitt
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Flockwitt »

I agree with the decision and I think the way the game played out vindicated it. Said as much on the game thread.
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booji boy
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by booji boy »

Apart from anything else I would be absolutely pissed off if I was Kaino. Missing most of the game because of that fucktard SBW.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by CrazyIslander »

It was the right decision. It's should be the default decision in that in any red card to a back. Backs cover more space in defence. Its hard to make up that space.
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Mr Mike
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Mr Mike »

booji boy wrote:Apart from anything else I would be absolutely pissed off if I was Kaino. Missing most of the game because of that fucktard SBW.
Sure he is annoyed but I suspect he is at the forefront of trying to build up SBW again, JK is just such a great team man.
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Kiwias
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Kiwias »

My view is that Shag could have taken into consideration the fact that bringing Laumape on with a familiar first five inside him given the importance of the match and that it was Laumape's debut.

We almost pulled off a win despite playing with 14 men for 55 minutes so the decision was pretty close to being a good one
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Flockwitt »

The ABs were able to control the game with 7 forwards. They really only lost control of the game when the Lions got down the other end of the field through other mistakes. How the game would have played out with a back down and that much extra space for the Lions to work their runners is something I'm very pleased we didn't have to see. It's far to easy to knock that call with hindsight blinkers on...
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Fat Old Git »

Cruden coming on had a bigger impact. His decision making was poor tonight and put us under all sorts if pressure and ultimately put the Lions in position to score.
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Flockwitt
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Flockwitt »

Fat Old Git wrote:Cruden coming on had a bigger impact. His decision making was poor tonight and put us under all sorts if pressure and ultimately put the Lions in position to score.
Pulled my hair out at his decision to kick cross field at the end there. Why? Why? Why? Drive the ball up again and again till we get a penalty. Ardie was going great guns. Feed him recycle and do it again. Work a droppie. Do anything but kick across field on a wet day when we've got a man down and they've got cover defense to scramble.
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handyman
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by handyman »

Lots of critism for hansen when it was barrett who lost the game with easy penalties missed.
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handyman
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by handyman »

Flockwitt wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:Cruden coming on had a bigger impact. His decision making was poor tonight and put us under all sorts if pressure and ultimately put the Lions in position to score.
Pulled my hair out at his decision to kick cross field at the end there. Why? Why? Why? Drive the ball up again and again till we get a penalty. Ardie was going great guns. Feed him recycle and do it again. Work a droppie. Do anything but kick across field on a wet day when we've got a man down and they've got cover defense to scramble.
Good post. The pressure got to Cruden.
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Whatever
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Whatever »

My question is, was Kaino eligible to come on again?

I thought not, but the reason I ask is that a graphic of the potential bench replacements came up, and he was listed. I was watching at a busy pub in Khao San Road BKK so couldn't hear what was being said (plus I think the commentary was in Thai) but it had me wondering.

And what's the deal with the Lions 'fans' that turn up in pubs abroad? Yikes. I hear the real fans that travel are great, but these fellas (plus some here) are absolute shockers.

Anyway it had to be Kaino that was sacrificed; needed a replacement midfield back (and a good carrying one too), couldn't lose a tightie, so it was either Cane or Kaino. And Cane was doing a good job tackling and contesting, so Kaino it had to be.
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topofthemoon
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by topofthemoon »

Whatever wrote:My question is, was Kaino eligible to come on again?

I thought not, but the reason I ask is that a graphic of the potential bench replacements came up, and he was listed. I was watching at a busy pub in Khao San Road BKK so couldn't hear what was being said (plus I think the commentary was in Thai) but it had me wondering.

And what's the deal with the Lions 'fans' that turn up in pubs abroad? Yikes. I hear the real fans that travel are great, but these fellas (plus some here) are absolute shockers.

Anyway it had to be Kaino that was sacrificed; needed a replacement midfield back (and a good carrying one too), couldn't lose a tightie, so it was either Cane or Kaino. And Cane was doing a good job tackling and contesting, so Kaino it had to be.
As a substituted player he could have returned to the pitch to replace: a blood injury; player undergoing HIA; or a player injured by foul play.
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booji boy
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by booji boy »

Flockwitt wrote:The ABs were able to control the game with 7 forwards. They really only lost control of the game when the Lions got down the other end of the field through other mistakes. How the game would have played out with a back down and that much extra space for the Lions to work their runners is something I'm very pleased we didn't have to see. It's far to easy to knock that call with hindsight blinkers on...
Hindsight blinkers? I was cursing the decision at the time. Wet night, forward oriented kicking battle.

Anyway no point crying over spilt milk now.

Bring on the decider at Eden Park! :thumbup:
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Demilich
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Demilich »

I think it was the right decision. Our pack was able to hold it's own down to 7 players and putting Laumape on allowed them to continue with the intended game-plan of boshing it at the 10/12 (dear I say it, very Gatland-ball like). And we very nearly pulled it off.

Only argument would be whether to do it immediately or give it a try with one short in the backs. Hansen went all in.
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JM2K6
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by JM2K6 »

I'm surprised he did it immediately, yeah. Seems like a good decision to make at half time instead.
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Jake
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Jake »

More costly was the decision to remove Sam Cane.

Savea was opened up a few times, notably Murray for his try.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Santa »

Demilich wrote:I think it was the right decision. Our pack was able to hold it's own down to 7 players and putting Laumape on allowed them to continue with the intended game-plan of boshing it at the 10/12 (dear I say it, very Gatland-ball like). And we very nearly pulled it off.

Only argument would be whether to do it immediately or give it a try with one short in the backs. Hansen went all in.
Don't know if it was right or wrong but we nearly won a game we should have lost by a wide margin.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by MrDominator »

I thought it was entirely logical.

How do you defend against an extra man in the backline from first phase play? It's an overlap waiting to happen for any remotely competent attack.
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Demilich
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Demilich »

MrDominator wrote:I thought it was entirely logical.

How do you defend against an extra man in the backline from first phase play? It's an overlap waiting to happen for any remotely competent attack.
Yeah, it's important defensively as well. Though countering that is that most first-phase we were short anyway, as ALB was packing in the scrums. I think it's more matching up on a speed basis and also the mid-field defensive patterns.

One thing of interest, is that Kaino really is the most expendable of the "back 5" of our forward pack now. You could have pulled off Cane, Read or reshuffled one of the loosies into the locks, but Read, Retalick, Whitelock and Cane really are the first names you'd put down on the team sheet now (along with Barrett and Coles). Not really a reflection on Kaino losing a huge amount of form, but more how much the rest of them have grown.
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Comrade »

MrDominator wrote:I thought it was entirely logical.

How do you defend against an extra man in the backline from first phase play? It's an overlap waiting to happen for any remotely competent attack.
Lions' attack isn't "remotely competent" so wouldn't have been able to generate the overlaps
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by BlueThunder »

The Lions attack has been good for most of the tour, they have created a huge amount of opportunities it's only their finishing/handling that's let them down.
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JM2K6
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by JM2K6 »

How's Laumape's defensive work been in Super Rugby? He was the only Kiwi to miss more than one tackle today - he went 3/2 - and his tackle stats were pretty horrific in the midweek game (7/5 or similar without looking them up again). Is this a genuine issue or just a case of him struggling to adjust to the increased quality of opposition?
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Flockwitt
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Flockwitt »

Jake wrote:More costly was the decision to remove Sam Cane.

Savea was opened up a few times, notably Murray for his try.
? Can't agree with this at all. You'll see Savea got blocked on his running line to cover for the try, and was huge impact late in the game, the only forward with the zip left to burst forward
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Jake
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by Jake »

Flockwitt wrote:
Jake wrote:More costly was the decision to remove Sam Cane.

Savea was opened up a few times, notably Murray for his try.
? Can't agree with this at all. You'll see Savea got blocked on his running line to cover for the try, and was huge impact late in the game, the only forward with the zip left to burst forward
Only my view but I do feel that Cane was missed.

Not like for like- one's a top level mongrel, one is a carrying explosive runner.

Hansen needs points, so Savea came on. He missed a tackle, Cane might not have been as dynamic.
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booji boy
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by booji boy »

Jake wrote:
Flockwitt wrote:
Jake wrote:More costly was the decision to remove Sam Cane.

Savea was opened up a few times, notably Murray for his try.
? Can't agree with this at all. You'll see Savea got blocked on his running line to cover for the try, and was huge impact late in the game, the only forward with the zip left to burst forward
Only my view but I do feel that Cane was missed.
Cane was immense in a losing cause. The amount of work he got through was incredible. He is very underrated.
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vh5150
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Re: Decision to take Kaino off and replace him with Laumape

Post by vh5150 »

Thought Hansen made the right decision. And it so very nearly worked out for the team. A bobbling line out steal at the end nearly turned the tide. AB pack was immense last night. Credit to the Lions for finding a way through the 14 man opposition in the final quarter.
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