3rd Test Changes for both sides?

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JM2K6
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Botha Boy »

Tim. wrote:I'd think about Vunipola for McGrath. Not for any discipline reason as MV is quality and not prone to a meltdown like those few minutes today. But the scrum was a bit wobbly before going against 7 and he'd cause havoc from the bench. Plus McGrath is a good player himself and fresh legs might be useful. It's a good problem to have.

Lions still disappointing over the ball. Best for George? Again harsh on George who's been great. But I think the Lions' only advantage is in depth. It might worth considering.

I don't think Teo brings much bench value (harsh again), I'd swap him for JJ's strike running.
Love JJ's strike running ... however it's just been missing all tour ... Te'o has already performed well in the Lions/NZ Test Arena so gets the nod IMO.

Agree with rest of your post.
Last edited by Botha Boy on Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Tim. »

Botha Boy wrote:
Tim. wrote:I'd think about Vunipola for McGrath. Not for any discipline reason as MV is quality and not prone to a meltdown like those few minutes today. But the scrum was a bit wobbly before going against 7 and he'd cause havoc from the bench. Plus McGrath is a good player himself and fresh legs might be useful. It's a good problem to have.

Lions still disappointing over the ball. Best for George? Again harsh on George who's been great. But I think the Lions' only advantage is in depth. It might worth considering.

I don't think Teo brings much bench value (harsh again), I'd swap him for JJ's strike running.
Love JJ's strike running ... however it's just been missing all tour ... Te'o has already performed well in the Lions/NZ Test Arena so gets in the nod IMO.

Agree with rest of your post.
I think that's being on the worse midweek rotation and not getting the ball. But yeah, I'd not die in the ditch if the management picked someone else. More a gut feeling.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by henry »

Teo either starts or remains in the 23 for me.

Joseph joins Best in the stands.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Tim. »

JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Best has been part of many non-awful line-outs (high praise I know :-] ). But the Lions need to show something different next week and still haven't attacked the ball either because they can't or won't. Best does that.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

Tim. wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Best has been part of many non-awful line-outs (high praise I know :-] ). But the Lions need to show something different next week and still haven't attacked the ball either because they can't or won't. Best does that.
He does, though so far we've only really seen that in one game. It's just that I watched him in midweek and every throw was piss poor - if the Canes had bothered to really attack our lineout they'd have picked us off at will. It's our only reliable area of superiority and I just can't countenance damaging that in favour of a non-carrying hooker who's admittedly very good at the breakdown.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by vh5150 »

Re the ABs I'd leave the pack intact. They are more than up for it.

In the backs ... you may yet see a recall for Fekitoa .. would Hansen risk Ioane at centre ????

My backline would be

15 iDagg
14 R Ioane
13 Fekitoa
12 Laumape
11 J Savea
10 Barrett
9. Smith
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

JM2K6 wrote:
Tim. wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Best has been part of many non-awful line-outs (high praise I know :-] ). But the Lions need to show something different next week and still haven't attacked the ball either because they can't or won't. Best does that.
He does, though so far we've only really seen that in one game. It's just that I watched him in midweek and every throw was piss poor - if the Canes had bothered to really attack our lineout they'd have picked us off at will. It's our only reliable area of superiority and I just can't countenance damaging that in favour of a non-carrying hooker who's admittedly very good at the breakdown.
We weren't superior out of touch today.

Again he's not non-carrying.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Jake »

earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is the better scrummger of all 3 and superb in the ruck area. Line out is flaky at times.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by vh5150 »

Re the ABs I'd leave the pack intact. They are more than up for it.

In the backs ... you may yet see a recall for Fekitoa .. would Hansen risk Ioane at centre ????

My backline would be

15 iDagg
14 R Ioane
13 Fekitoa
12 Laumape
11 J Savea
10 Barrett
9. Smith
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JM2K6
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Botha Boy »

Jake wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is the better scrummger of all 3 and superb in the ruck area. Line out is flaky at times.
He's a good scrummager, great around the park and in the breakdown, but has a history of blowing up at crucial times for Ireland and Ulster under pressure at the throw-in. If this was not the case, I would start him fro ever test, Unfortunately Ireland are waiting for the next gen of hookers to come through so that we can have confidence winning our line out ball, without having to rely on Toner.

But a great player who has shown that he has what it takes to disrupt th ABs at the breakdown ...
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
George had 7 for 5m in the first test
Best had 5 for 1m against the Canes
George had 5 carries for 4m against the Maori
Best had 11 for 11m against the Chiefs

Apart from George getting a good line today neither has made a lot of yards. Expected when you are a frontrower carrying into the guts off 9.

I'd suggest the fact that Best is used to carry in the tight with such frequency by both Ireland and the Lions suggests that the coaches think he does a job there.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

Botha Boy wrote:
Jake wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is the better scrummger of all 3 and superb in the ruck area. Line out is flaky at times.
He's a good scrummager, great around the park and in the breakdown, but has a history of blowing up at crucial times for Ireland and Ulster under pressure at the throw-in. If this was not the case, I would start him fro ever test, Unfortunately Ireland are waiting for the next gen of hookers to come through so that we can have confidence winning our line out ball, without having to rely on Toner.

But a great player who has shown that he has what it takes to disrupt th ABs at the breakdown ...
Must have missed us getting 100% without Toner against England.

So much of Ireland's game is focused on the lineout, if he couldn't throw Schmidt wouldn't pick him.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Jake »

earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
George had 7 for 5m in the first test
Best had 5 for 1m against the Canes
George had 5 carries for 4m against the Maori
Best had 11 for 11m against the Chiefs

Apart from George getting a good line today neither has made a lot of yards. Expected when you are a frontrower carrying into the guts off 9.

I'd suggest the fact that Best is used to carry in the tight with such frequency by both Ireland and the Lions suggests that the coaches think he does a job there.
Respectfully, quality over stats.

Jamie just made a break that has won a test.

The real question is how the hell is Ken on the bench?
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by henry »

The Lions coaches think he's a dirttracker. A damn fine one but a Dirttracker nonetheless. Apparently the midweek guys have called themselves the Rory Best team. I strongly suspect he's not going to feature next weekend.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
George had 7 for 5m in the first test
Best had 5 for 1m against the Canes
George had 5 carries for 4m against the Maori
Best had 11 for 11m against the Chiefs

Apart from George getting a good line today neither has made a lot of yards. Expected when you are a frontrower carrying into the guts off 9.

I'd suggest the fact that Best is used to carry in the tight with such frequency by both Ireland and the Lions suggests that the coaches think he does a job there.
Yes, I've been quite critical of George's carrying up til now. Of course, he did excellently today. But he's the stronger carrier by virtue of being bigger and quicker, and has excellent hands. And a kicking game :lol:

Best has not done anything to suggest he should be picked over the younger men on tour, he doesn't offer enough outside of the ruck and his throwing gives me the shits every time I see it. That's not going to change anything.

Btw, that 5 for 1m was an 80 minute shift from Rory :(
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

Jake wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
George had 7 for 5m in the first test
Best had 5 for 1m against the Canes
George had 5 carries for 4m against the Maori
Best had 11 for 11m against the Chiefs

Apart from George getting a good line today neither has made a lot of yards. Expected when you are a frontrower carrying into the guts off 9.

I'd suggest the fact that Best is used to carry in the tight with such frequency by both Ireland and the Lions suggests that the coaches think he does a job there.
Respectfully, quality over stats.

Jamie just made a break that has won a test.

The real question is how the hell is Ken on the bench?
Can't remember what country he's from, can you?

I've not said Best should replace George and I've already said George is a better carrier, don't see why people are bringing it up like I've said Best should start ahead of George.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

henry wrote:The Lions coaches think he's a dirttracker. A damn fine one but a Dirttracker nonetheless. Apparently the midweek guys have called themselves the Rory Best team. I strongly suspect he's not going to feature next weekend.
That's genuinely lovely :thumbup:
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
5 carries for 1 metre against the Canes. 5/5 at the lineout but undercooked most of them. It's not "pick me for the Test squad" stuff, sorry.
George had 7 for 5m in the first test
Best had 5 for 1m against the Canes
George had 5 carries for 4m against the Maori
Best had 11 for 11m against the Chiefs

Apart from George getting a good line today neither has made a lot of yards. Expected when you are a frontrower carrying into the guts off 9.

I'd suggest the fact that Best is used to carry in the tight with such frequency by both Ireland and the Lions suggests that the coaches think he does a job there.
Yes, I've been quite critical of George's carrying up til now. Of course, he did excellently today. But he's the stronger carrier by virtue of being bigger and quicker, and has excellent hands. And a kicking game :lol:

Best has not done anything to suggest he should be picked over the younger men on tour, he doesn't offer enough outside of the ruck and his throwing gives me the shits every time I see it. That's not going to change anything.

Btw, that 5 for 1m was an 80 minute shift from Rory :(
Where did I ever suggest George wasn't a better carrier.

You said he's a non-carrier.

The way you're going on you'd think he just waddles from ruck to ruck and does nothing else.

Best is better than Owens.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by henry »

Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

earl the beaver wrote:Where did I ever suggest George wasn't a better carrier.

You said he's a non-carrier.

The way you're going on you'd think he just waddles from ruck to ruck and does nothing else.

Best is better than Owens.
A fair criticism of my comment - I should say he's not likely to tear off a break or go through anyone. Both Owens and George are athletic men, both quicker, and George significantly larger. Best works hard, I'm not going say "waddles from ruck to ruck" at the same time as saying he's a good breakdown player because those things aren't particularly compatible, and he attempts a lot of tackles. I don't begrudge him his place on tour.

Owens get a tough rap on here. I know Jake's not a fan, but he was an excellent lineout thrower in the 6N from memory and he's a lively player in the loose.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

henry wrote:Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
Ken Owens' carrying hasn't been top quality for several years, he looks to have sacrificed it in order to get back into the Welsh 2 shirt with improved setpiece.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by henry »

earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
Ken Owens' carrying hasn't been top quality for several years, he looks to have sacrificed it in order to get back into the Welsh 2 shirt with improved setpiece.
I think you're badly over-reaching here.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by WelshmanJim »

Best's best is better than Owens but he does have the odd lineout shocker so they obviously don't think that's worth the risk for a bench player.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by terryfinch »

earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is utterly shite.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by harry 22 »

i guess its the coaches preference. They obviously dont trust best at lineout which is fair enough considering some big misses while playing for those coaches in red.
If schmidt was in charge Best would be playing the first 50 everytime against the kiwis as one of his strongest players around the breakdown. George is a quality player, im just anticipating an almighty battle in that area next week and we're struggling to make turnovers/force penalties
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

terryfinch wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is utterly shite.
Good for you.

Have a biscuit.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Tim. »

harry 22 wrote:i guess its the coaches preference. They obviously dont trust best at lineout which is fair enough considering some big misses while playing for those coaches in red.
If schmidt was in charge Best would be playing the first 50 everytime against the kiwis as one of his strongest players around the breakdown. George is a quality player, im just anticipating an almighty battle in that area next week and we're struggling to make turnovers/force penalties
I'm here. I'd also like to see Maro go at the ball next week. It's his USP as a lock forward. With Warbs blind too the Lions should be pretty strong.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by ovalball »

I wouldn't be looking for much in the way of changes - other than for fitness reasons. This side can build on the result and will do it better without all the chopping and changing.

McGrath for Vunipola, who benches and comes on as an impact player. That'd be the only change for me. I'm still not a fan of AWJ, but I think that ship has sailed and we should stick with him for the last test.

I would like to see some of the replacements come on a bit earlier. Sinkler and Lawes made an impact, and if Mako is benching, he'd also add something to the party at that stage.
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by earl the beaver »

henry wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
Ken Owens' carrying hasn't been top quality for several years, he looks to have sacrificed it in order to get back into the Welsh 2 shirt with improved setpiece.
I think you're badly over-reaching here.
Over-reaching? Like no one else has done over Best, apparently he's the worst thrower of all time, goes backwards with every carry and can't be trusted with anything if read stuff on here.

Instead he's the guy who has captained Ireland to wins over SA (in SA, a first for Ireland, with 14 men), NZ (a first for Ireland), Australia and England with a strong lineout.
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JM2K6
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by JM2K6 »

earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
Ken Owens' carrying hasn't been top quality for several years, he looks to have sacrificed it in order to get back into the Welsh 2 shirt with improved setpiece.
I think you're badly over-reaching here.
Over-reaching? Like no one else has done over Best, apparently he's the worst thrower of all time, goes backwards with every carry and can't be trusted with anything if read stuff on here.

Instead he's the guy who has captained Ireland to wins over SA (in SA, a first for Ireland, with 14 men), NZ (a first for Ireland), Australia and England with a strong lineout.
Ah, see, what you've done there is open the Dylan Hartley door
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henry
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by henry »

earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
henry wrote:Not for impsct in terms of ball carrying or lineout solidity, he's not.
Ken Owens' carrying hasn't been top quality for several years, he looks to have sacrificed it in order to get back into the Welsh 2 shirt with improved setpiece.
I think you're badly over-reaching here.
Over-reaching? Like no one else has done over Best, apparently he's the worst thrower of all time, goes backwards with every carry and can't be trusted with anything if read stuff on here.

Instead he's the guy who has captained Ireland to wins over SA (in SA, a first for Ireland, with 14 men), NZ (a first for Ireland), Australia and England with a strong lineout.
:lol:

Jesus. Get a grip, princess.

People have criticised his throwing. Said it isn't as good as George and Owens'. Nothing about it being the worst of all time. People have said his carrying isnt as good as George's or Owens'. People have pointed out that in a Lions shirt, he's occasionally gone to pot. A few examples have been raised elsewhere. Everyone accepts he's the best hooker on tour over the ball. Everyone accepts he's a fine leader of men, as with the dirttrackers. The issue is that he isn't the best hooker off the bench given his carrying impact and his occasional meltdowns under pressure. No-one is saying he's shite. If he started or was on the bench next week, it wouldnt be ridiculous or totally undeserved. Don't see it happening mind. And it's got nothing to do with bias, an accusation that is, nonetheless, deeply amusing coming from you.
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Gospel
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Gospel »

Tim. wrote:
harry 22 wrote:i guess its the coaches preference. They obviously dont trust best at lineout which is fair enough considering some big misses while playing for those coaches in red.
If schmidt was in charge Best would be playing the first 50 everytime against the kiwis as one of his strongest players around the breakdown. George is a quality player, im just anticipating an almighty battle in that area next week and we're struggling to make turnovers/force penalties
I'm here. I'd also like to see Maro go at the ball next week. It's his USP as a lock forward. With Warbs blind too the Lions should be pretty strong.
They're going at the ball but the All Black's are cleaning really well.
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Botha Boy
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Botha Boy »

earl the beaver wrote:
Botha Boy wrote:
Jake wrote:
earl the beaver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Hmm, some things I strongly disagree with there.

Best - terrible thrower (it's not just the ones he misses, he frequently underthrows) and offers no carrying game. George is a far better all round player. Owens is the only reasonable alternative and has he pushed for a starting spot?

Te'o - no bench value? It's how he got his place on tour, he was fantastic for England off the bench time and again in the 6N and his concussion against Ireland was one big reason why we lost.
Terrible thrower? The guy has 114 caps and captains a national team who's attack is primarily based off the lineout.

As for carrying, yeah he's not George, but he is much better than you are giving him credit for.
Best is the better scrummger of all 3 and superb in the ruck area. Line out is flaky at times.
He's a good scrummager, great around the park and in the breakdown, but has a history of blowing up at crucial times for Ireland and Ulster under pressure at the throw-in. If this was not the case, I would start him fro ever test, Unfortunately Ireland are waiting for the next gen of hookers to come through so that we can have confidence winning our line out ball, without having to rely on Toner.

But a great player who has shown that he has what it takes to disrupt th ABs at the breakdown ...
Must have missed us getting 100% without Toner against England.

So much of Ireland's game is focused on the lineout, if he couldn't throw Schmidt wouldn't pick him.
In fairness, it was a shock and I thought Scannell had taken over after Best's headbang.

I was embarrassed after to see that Best has played most of the game. So good for him. But that does not take away the fact that he has screwed in clutch situations betimes.

He is an amazing player, but the universal (non-Earl) position is that he is not a reliable lineout thrower for critical situations based on how he has performed over the last decade.

Else he would be the Captain of this Lions Tour ... :nod: :nod: :nod:
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Salient
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Salient »

Taurua wrote:SBW probably gets suspended anyway, so I guess that's Laumape in, and Jordie getting on the bench.
5pm NZ time I believe the judicial process starts, expecting a 4 match ban to be honest.

Can't see huge changes in the ABs for next weekend, unless there's a couple of injuries we don't know about.
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Da iawn diolch
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Copied from the other thread...

Can we talk about the starting props for game 3? Stats from yesterday:
Mako - 2 carries, 7 tackles, 4 penalties conceded
Furlong - 1 carry, 4 tackles

That's a pathetic impact from two players who were picked for their mobility and loose play. If we're not dominating the scrum either, why on earth would be pick those two again? I'd prefer to start the the two replacements, and perhaps leave Mako and Furlong to come on as impact subs.
Sonny Blount
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Sonny Blount »

Salient wrote:
Taurua wrote:SBW probably gets suspended anyway, so I guess that's Laumape in, and Jordie getting on the bench.
5pm NZ time I believe the judicial process starts, expecting a 4 match ban to be honest.

Can't see huge changes in the ABs for next weekend, unless there's a couple of injuries we don't know about.
Well the ABs are going pretty deep on their outside back stocks and this may cause a change of thinking.

Crotty gone
SBW gone (regardless of the judicial outcome)
B Smith gone
NMS not ready
Naholo possibly concussed

J Savea dropped
Fekitoa dropped

Laumape untested
Goodhue untested
MacKenzie too small and rubbish at 10

After Dagg, ALB is the go to guy and he is only half a season into his AB career.

Do we go back to experience and play
10 beauden
11 Savea
12 fekitoa
13 alb
14 ioane
15 Dagg
22 cruden
23 laumape

Or back the young guns with:
10 beauden
11 ioane
12 alb
13 goodhue
14 laumape
15 Dagg
22 sopoaga
23 Jordie

Or make a positional switch:
10 Cruden
11 ioane
12 laumape
13 alb
14 Dagg
15 beauden
22 sopoaga
23 jordie
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Botha Boy
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Re: 3rd Test Changes for both sides?

Post by Botha Boy »

Sonny Blount wrote:
Salient wrote:
Taurua wrote:SBW probably gets suspended anyway, so I guess that's Laumape in, and Jordie getting on the bench.
5pm NZ time I believe the judicial process starts, expecting a 4 match ban to be honest.

Can't see huge changes in the ABs for next weekend, unless there's a couple of injuries we don't know about.
Well the ABs are going pretty deep on their outside back stocks and this may cause a change of thinking.

Crotty gone
SBW gone (regardless of the judicial outcome)
B Smith gone
NMS not ready
Naholo possibly concussed

J Savea dropped
Fekitoa dropped

Laumape untested
Goodhue untested
MacKenzie untested

After Dagg, ALB is the go to guy and he is only half a season into his AB career.

Do we go back to experience and play
10 beauden
11 Savea
12 fekitoa
13 alb
14 ioane
15 Dagg
22 cruden
23 laumape

Or back the young guns with:
10 beauden
11 ioane
12 alb
13 goodhue
14 laumape
15 Dagg
22 sopoaga
23 Jordie

Or make a positional switch:
10 Cruden
11 ioane
12 laumape
13 alb
14 Dagg
15 beauden
22 sopoaga
23 jordie
The positional switch option.
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