So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

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Plato'sCave
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Plato'sCave »

It was a game of three halfs
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Boxcar Ira
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Boxcar Ira »

I thought we should have won the tour with the players available but you always forget how big a factor the scratch team thing is. So massive credit to the whole team. Still, I reckon Gatland will look back on this with a little regret. The tour could have gone his way with a couple of minor and very obvious tweaks.
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SamShark
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by SamShark »

Plato'sCave wrote:It was a game of three halfs
I'm over the moon, but as sick as a parrot at the end of the day.
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Sards
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Sards »

I give the Lions full marks. Sucked in the midweek games but got the results that mattered. Bearing in mind that this New Zealand side is the best in creation and the depth that they have and the success of the Superrugby sides a drawn tournament is an excellent result and a move in the right direction for a northern side filled with the best they have on offer.
Big thumbs up. You made the rest of the rugby world proud.
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Gospel
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Gospel »

A six week project team against back to back World Champions on their own patch. I'd say 1-1 was about par on balance but exceeded expectations. We didn't have enough cohesion to really make it stick against NZ - who struggled themselves after just a few changes to their setup. Only with hindsight can we look back and think what could have been which is something I suspect both sets of supporters will be doing.
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plum-pudding
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by plum-pudding »

CrazyIslander wrote:
Jake wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jake wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Jake is probably bitter coz his article blaming Gatland for the series loss won't get printed.
I've not written one, and I've got the luxury of 3 days to consider my angle.

What I'm trying to say is, we cannot accept this as success if we want to get better.

Does that make more sense?
Then you're not talking about the Lions specifically.
But if you are a rugby person you would've put the result in perspective.
- NZ are back to back RWC champions with all time greats in the team. The new guys have had great SR season.
- the 5 NZ SR are the best 5 teams in SR. Equivalent or better to the Champions Cup semi finalists.
- the Lions played twice a week

To come out of NZ with a drawn series is a great achievement. Especially when the ABs were threatening to run away with it but somehow the Lions held on. So many series saving moments.

Here's the thing- NZ 2017 are nowhere near 2015. Maybe 10/15% away from that side.

WWe had ten weeks together. THats not a scratch side.
The NZ 2015 only beat a shit Boks side by 2 points in the semis. NZ 2017 did not look good at times simply because the Lions hit them hard in tackles and in the breakdown. The Lions from 1-15 held their own. You watch guys like Laumape, Ioane and Jordie go on to destroy other teams and you'll realise how good this ABs side is.
Agreed, I think there will be some big big scores racked up against SA and Aus in the next few months by the ab's, which I think may put this draw into perspective.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by CrazyIslander »

Boxcar Ira wrote:I thought we should have won the tour with the players available but you always forget how big a factor the scratch team thing is. So massive credit to the whole team. Still, I reckon Gatland will look back on this with a little regret. The tour could have gone his way with a couple of minor and very obvious tweaks.
It was more likely to go NZs way but the Lions kept pulling it back. Even up to that Poite decision. Hansen would have more regrets than Gatland.
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Boxcar Ira
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Boxcar Ira »

CrazyIslander wrote:
Boxcar Ira wrote:I thought we should have won the tour with the players available but you always forget how big a factor the scratch team thing is. So massive credit to the whole team. Still, I reckon Gatland will look back on this with a little regret. The tour could have gone his way with a couple of minor and very obvious tweaks.
It was more likely to go NZs way but the Lions kept pulling it back. Even up to that Poite decision. Hansen would have more regrets than Gatland.
I don't think so. Hansen has more than enough credit in the bank for that to set him back. I think Gatland needed that win more if he has designs on the big job which he probably does.
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Plato'sCave
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Plato'sCave »

SamShark wrote:
Plato'sCave wrote:It was a game of three halfs
I'm over the moon, but as sick as a parrot at the end of the day.
It feels the third wank of the day. I rather be watching the action movie that starts in 15 minutes but I may as well bang another one off to fill the time.

It'll do, but it's not great.

It feels weird knowing there's a kiwi version of me doing exactly the same thing.

We've got this knowing understating but we don't really want to look at each other.
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paddyor
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by paddyor »

I find myself thinking that Ireland would have won that series. Opportunity missed I think.
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plum-pudding
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by plum-pudding »

paddyor wrote:I find myself thinking that Ireland would have won that series. Opportunity missed I think.
all that fire power in the backline eh
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by paddyor »

plum-pudding wrote:
paddyor wrote:I find myself thinking that Ireland would have won that series. Opportunity missed I think.
all that fire power in the backline eh
Scored more tries against NZ in 1 test than the lions managed in 3. The Howley effect maybe.
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Toro
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Toro »

Boxcar Ira wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Boxcar Ira wrote:I thought we should have won the tour with the players available but you always forget how big a factor the scratch team thing is. So massive credit to the whole team. Still, I reckon Gatland will look back on this with a little regret. The tour could have gone his way with a couple of minor and very obvious tweaks.
It was more likely to go NZs way but the Lions kept pulling it back. Even up to that Poite decision. Hansen would have more regrets than Gatland.
I don't think so. Hansen has more than enough credit in the bank for that to set him back. I think Gatland needed that win more if he has designs on the big job which he probably does.
I think he means Shag will be more gutted they didn't put the Lions away today and Gatland will be more proud his team hung in there and actually could've won if a few things had gone a different way.

I think the Lions have been great, a real all-star forward pack that the All Blacks won't come up against again. In past years the Lions have probably put together better backlines but they played some lovely rugby at times, especially in Wellington in horrific handling conditions. :thumbup:
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Jake wrote:So, when all this dust has settled and all the hyperbole has unhyped it self the truth is this.

5 wins from ten.
Failed to win the series.
We led NZ for 3minutes out of 240 minutes in the whole series.
We had every chance going to win the series but didn't.

Anyone saying this was a success has simply lot the plot. It was almost a disaster and Gatland made a real hash of it time and time again.

If not a disaster it was a failure and it's had to argue otherwise.
I was wondering when the revisionism was going to start. Gone from 'suicidal tour where no one would have a chance' to 'could have easily done it with better coach/tactics/selection'. :lol:

This place never fails to deliver.
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booze
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by booze »

I thought they would be bringing a serious side to NZ and they delivered.

Fantastic achievement to draw the series. Not sure where they stand in the lions hall of fame but they are a great side by modern standards
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by TheBouncer »

Boxcar Ira wrote:I thought we should have won the tour with the players available but you always forget how big a factor the scratch team thing is. So massive credit to the whole team. Still, I reckon Gatland will look back on this with a little regret. The tour could have gone his way with a couple of minor and very obvious tweaks.
I don't agree with that. Gattie, who must know the all black gig is never happening, will be doing cartwheels with that. Largely overmatched, tieing that is his best coaching achievement imo.

The only big selection mistake I think was pairing teo and jd... he was totally vindicated by Davies and Warburton and as lucky as AWJ was to keep his spot I don't think for a second that Lawes starting would have swung things.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Sonny Blount »

Jake wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Jake wrote:

Here's the thing- NZ 2017 are nowhere near 2015. Maybe 10/15% away from that side.

WWe had ten weeks together. THats not a scratch side.
You're onto it Jake. The way the All Blacks and NZ Super Rugby teams dealt with repeated games on the highveldt in the late 90's was to stop using it as an excuse. We expect the All Blacks and Crusaders to win on Ellis Park. South African teams and fans kept whinging about their travel to NZ for much longer and fell behind.

The All Blacks are always vulnerable in June, the creakiness of their play in this series has been typical from them for years, and the Lions had the preparation to take them.

If a series win to the Lions was not the expectation and goal of the English and Irish players on this tour then they shouldn't bother expecting to win the 2019 RWC either.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Flametop »

The SBW red card turned the series.
Gatland got lucky.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by mr bungle »

CrazyIslander wrote:Successful tour.
The best way to measure it is compare the NZ teams of Lions series in the past. The current team is the best.
Better than ABs 2005? You just spout utter drivel.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Flametop »

paddyor wrote:
plum-pudding wrote:
paddyor wrote:I find myself thinking that Ireland would have won that series. Opportunity missed I think.
all that fire power in the backline eh
Scored more tries against NZ in 1 test than the lions managed in 3. The Howley effect maybe.
Boom, head shot.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Sefton »

Flametop wrote:The SBW red card turned the series.
Gatland got lucky.
He's lucky so often it's almost unbelievable.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

Some great players on tour, a handful would make a Lions team of the last 20 years, I enjoyed it but it didn't get the blood flowing the way Lions tours did years ago, maybe it's the constant hype and/or the fact we see every part of it now.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by alliswell »

Mr. Very Popular wrote:Some great players on tour, a handful would make a Lions team of the last 20 years, I enjoyed it but it didn't get the blood flowing the way Lions tours did years ago, maybe it's the constant hype and/or the fact we see every part of it now.
I definitely have lions fatigue. I watched the first half on sky today and the second on NZ tv. The NZ commentators are just so much better than the fawning hype machines at sky. It's a miracle they can keep a straight face.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Da iawn diolch »

Jake wrote:So, when all this dust has settled and all the hyperbole has unhyped it self the truth is this.

5 wins from ten.
Failed to win the series.
We led NZ for 3minutes out of 240 minutes in the whole series.
We had every chance going to win the series but didn't.

Anyone saying this was a success has simply lot the plot. It was almost a disaster and Gatland made a real hash of it time and time again.

If not a disaster it was a failure and it's had to argue otherwise.
It's easy to argue otherwise. We played a scratch team against a bunch of blokes who are well coached and proven winners.
If this is the height of your journalistic analysis, I despair for the quality of content that makes its way to PR...
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Flametop »

Sefton wrote:
Flametop wrote:The SBW red card turned the series.
Gatland got lucky.
He's lucky so often it's almost unbelievable.
Indeed. I'd say he sends Kurtley Beale a pair of moulded boots every Christmas.
:lol:
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by J Man »

CrazyIslander wrote: The NZ 2015 only beat a shit Boks side by 2 points in the semis.
You can always trot out this drivel with great sides.

2002 England only just beat a crap NZ team at Twickers.
1999 Australia got thrashed at Eden Park by NZ.

Yada yada yada. No team blasts every team off the planet by 40 points every game.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by J Man »

mr bungle wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Successful tour.
The best way to measure it is compare the NZ teams of Lions series in the past. The current team is the best.
Better than ABs 2005? You just spout utter drivel.
Last nights backline was way to fickle for it to be anywhere near New Zealand's best ever.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by ovalball »

I'd give this Lions party a pass mark.

The lead up games aren't sufficient for everyone to show their best, hence, selection is always a bit of a lottery for the tests. There's also too few games to get the final selections playing together enough before the tests start. That's the nature of 'scratch' sides. Taking that into account, it was an accomplishment to hold the World Champions to a draw.

Bit disappointed we didn't match the AB forwards - pleased that our backs 11, 13, 14 and 15 went so well. Also pleased with the character of the team to fightback and hold their nerve in the last 2 tests.

Gatland is still an arse though.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Sonny Blount »

The story of the tour for me was that the New Zealand pack bested the Lions pack. I wasn't expecting that and I thought the Lions would be trying to dominate in the scrum and mauls but they couldn't.

The other side of that was the All Blacks backs were as scratchy as they have been for many years.
Last edited by Sonny Blount on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Gospel »

Sonny Blount wrote:The story of the tour for me was that the New Zealand pack bested the Lions pack. I was expecting that and I thought the Lions would be trying to dominate in the scrum and mauls but they couldn't.

The other side of that was the All Blacks backs were as scratchy as they have been for many years.
New Zealand had the upper hand in the first test - the Lions looked overcooked. But after that there was sod all in it.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Jeff the Bear »

Da iawn diolch wrote:
Jake wrote:So, when all this dust has settled and all the hyperbole has unhyped it self the truth is this.

5 wins from ten.
Failed to win the series.
We led NZ for 3minutes out of 240 minutes in the whole series.
We had every chance going to win the series but didn't.

Anyone saying this was a success has simply lot the plot. It was almost a disaster and Gatland made a real hash of it time and time again.

If not a disaster it was a failure and it's had to argue otherwise.
It's easy to argue otherwise. We played a scratch team against a bunch of blokes who are well coached and proven winners.
If this is the height of your journalistic analysis, I despair for the quality of content that makes its way to PR...
It's a terrible effort tbf Jake, and is shameless on a level even Stephen Jones would baulk at. It's alright to give it the "we have every chance to win the series but didn't" line if you've been banging that drum from the beginning, but as far as I am aware, you or no one else has been.

As such, it's ludicrous revisionism to suggest anything other than the almost universally agreed truths held before the tour...that this was a 'suicide' mission where the Lions had no hope. The fact we got a draw can therefore be nothing but a success. Not as good as winning of course, but literally light years better than what most people thought would happen.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Sonny Blount »

Gospel wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:The story of the tour for me was that the New Zealand pack bested the Lions pack. I was expecting that and I thought the Lions would be trying to dominate in the scrum and mauls but they couldn't.

The other side of that was the All Blacks backs were as scratchy as they have been for many years.
New Zealand had the upper hand in the first test - the Lions looked overcooked. But after that there was sod all in it.

I doubt we'll do to the Springbok or Puma pack, what we did to the Lions in the scrums yesterday.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by CrazyIslander »

J Man wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:Successful tour.
The best way to measure it is compare the NZ teams of Lions series in the past. The current team is the best.
Better than ABs 2005? You just spout utter drivel.
Last nights backline was way to fickle for it to be anywhere near New Zealand's best ever.
Ok

Macdonald vs Jordie EVEN
Howlett vs Dagg EVEN
Umaga vs ALB Adv 2005
Mauger vs SBW/Laumape Adv 2017
Sivivatu vs Savea Adv 2005
Carter vs Barrett EVEN
Marshall vs Smith Adv 2017
Sooalo vs Read Adv 2017
McCaw vs Cane Adv 2005
Collins vs Kaino Adv 2017
Jack vs Whitelock Adv 2017
Williams vs Retalick Adv 2017
Hayman vs Franks Adv 2005
Mealamu vs Taylor Adv 2005
Woodcock vs Moody EVEN

Very close but 2005 was bookended by two RWC failures whilst 2017 is going for 3 in a row.
Morgan14
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by Morgan14 »

For me, while behind the '71 and '74 heroes, that's them at #3 in the most recent 50 years. Imho. Maybe #4 behind '97?


They weren't without their flaws, to be sure. And they did have a lot of luck with the refs, and AB injuries. But I also felt they were unlucky in certain instances (Watson falling down when they had seemingly caught the ABs asleep in the final test with a quick tap, thought there was a very good chance there; the intercept thrown by Farrell, well done ABs as always but a couple of inches and that's in for the Lions, etc.)
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by J Man »

CrazyIslander wrote: Carter vs Barrett EVEN
You have to be able to kick your goals. This one isn't close.
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by CrazyIslander »

J Man wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote: Carter vs Barrett EVEN
You have to be able to kick your goals. This one isn't close.
Barrett not close to Carter? Are u serious?
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J Man
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by J Man »

CrazyIslander wrote:
J Man wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote: Carter vs Barrett EVEN
You have to be able to kick your goals. This one isn't close.
Barrett not close to Carter? Are u serious?
Did you watch the second test in 05?
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by sonic_attack »

On the whole they were pretty good. I think they played a solid game. What was noticeable is they lacked any x-factor or unpredictability, which was probably what they needed from the outset to really grab a hold of the tour.

I think their best game was V the Crusaders. They were evened all through with their opposition but they managed to strangle them for the whole game.

All in though, they were a solid unit and didn't let themselves down.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by CrazyIslander »

J Man wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
J Man wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote: Carter vs Barrett EVEN
You have to be able to kick your goals. This one isn't close.
Barrett not close to Carter? Are u serious?
Did you watch the second test in 05?
Yes. Have you watched the last two seasons of Barrett?
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Re: So, how did we rate the Class of 2017?

Post by vh5150 »

Jake wrote:So, when all this dust has settled and all the hyperbole has unhyped it self the truth is this.

5 wins from ten.
Failed to win the series.
We led NZ for 3minutes out of 240 minutes in the whole series.
We had every chance going to win the series but didn't.

Anyone saying this was a success has simply lot the plot. It was almost a disaster and Gatland made a real hash of it time and time again.

If not a disaster it was a failure and it's had to argue otherwise.
Hard to disagree. The Lions also had the rub of the green with the refs. A lost opportunity for the ages.
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