"What race is d**khead?"

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Chuckles1188
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:I guess you could start with ACAS:

http://m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1849

They use "race" .....


Or the governemnt


https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

ACAS includes "religion" in its definition of "race", so....

No it doesn't

http://m.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/1/6/Race ... kplace.pdf
Did you, uh, read that document before linking it bimbo?
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I don't know but we definitely don't and aren't going to call them "races"
Because you've decided that's the case? Shall we inform all those places and people and systems and research etc that does use the term "race" that its been decided they're not allowed to any more ?
What research that you don't dismiss out of hand as a waste of time uses the term "race"? Biology definitely doesn't.

The reason is that "race" is an already-existing term with no scientific basis behind it. Technical terminology is precise because it has to be, "race" is a hugely non-precise term.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20027740?s ... b_contents
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You really need to read these things before posting the link at me
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

The ACAS document does not include religion as a definition of race. It includes two distinct groups Sikhs, and Jews. Not Muslims, Christians, or Scientologists
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

"Sikh" of course being a term which does not in any way denote belonging to a religion
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

Chuckles1188 wrote:"Sikh" of course being a term which does not in any way denote belonging to a religion
Image
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:I guess you could start with ACAS:

http://m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1849

They use "race" .....


Or the governemnt


https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

ACAS includes "religion" in its definition of "race", so....

No it doesn't

http://m.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/1/6/Race ... kplace.pdf
Did you, uh, read that document before linking it bimbo?
Yes it includes religion under the heading of "ethnic origin" as an identifier, it doesn't define race by religion directly at all, unless of course you want your own version of definitions used and the way the piece is structured and we will just ignore the "ethnic origin" main heading , then you can say you're correct chuckles.

Such is your own belief and bias, I have no doubt you believe that's a vindication rather than of course he opposite.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:I guess you could start with ACAS:

http://m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1849

They use "race" .....


Or the governemnt


https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

ACAS includes "religion" in its definition of "race", so....

No it doesn't

http://m.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/1/6/Race ... kplace.pdf
Did you, uh, read that document before linking it bimbo?
Yes it includes religion under the heading of "ethnic origin" as an identifier, it doesn't define race by religion directly at all, unless of course you want your own version of definitions used and the way the piece is structured and we will just ignore the "ethnic origin" main heading , then you can say you're correct chuckles.

Such is your own belief and bias, I have no doubt you believe that's a vindication rather than of course he opposite.
He knows that. He has read the document
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Seneca of the Night wrote:

He knows that. He has read the document
Is this the section here:
ethnic origin – this usually refers to the ethnic group to which
someone belongs. An ethnic group will usually have a long, shared
history and its own cultural traditions which set it apart from other
groups. It may also have a shared language, literature, religion and
geographical origin, and may also be a minority or oppressed group.
Examples of ethnic groups include Sikhs, Jews, Romany Gypsies and
Irish Travellers (some of which have their own religions)
???

Does anyone really think that means religion can be swapped in for race in acas's view or that it's a component of ethnic origin (didn't chuckles say ethnic origin was a choice ?)
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bobbity »

Why did sickle cell come into this?
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

bobbity wrote:Why did sickle cell come into this?
Because the people who have it have tended to be black, so bimbo was trying to use it as justification for a scientific use of the concept of "race"
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

"Ethnic origin" is something which I am very specifically not saying is NOT a choice
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

bobbity wrote:Why did sickle cell come into this?

I used it pages ago as an example of where "race" or in fact ethnic heritage is a real factor in disease.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Chuckles1188 wrote:"Ethnic origin" is something which I am very specifically not saying is NOT a choice

You just object to it being identified, group and commonly reffered to as "race"
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Chuckles1188 wrote:
bobbity wrote:Why did sickle cell come into this?
Because the people who have it have tended to be black, so bimbo was trying to use it as justification for a scientific use of the concept of "race"
"Tended to be black" ? I never once referred to skin colour , later on YOU kept mentioning "white" people. But I didn't say "black people" at any time. Don't lie chuckles.

There's also a very clear genetic reason and people from certain heritages are more prone (by massive percentages) to inherite the trait and therefore the disease.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bobbity »

bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bobbity wrote:Why did sickle cell come into this?
Because the people who have it have tended to be black, so bimbo was trying to use it as justification for a scientific use of the concept of "race"
"Tended to be black" ? I never once referred to skin colour ,malted on YOU kept mentioning "white" people. But I didn't say "black people" at any time. Don't lie chuckles.

There's also a very clear genetic reason and people from certain heritages are more prone (by massive percentages) to inherite the trait and therefore the disease.

Ok, but it's based on a geographically tied selection pressure. I'm struggling with it as a proxy or tied to anything. There will be large groups who consider themselves ethnically distinct who are or have been subject to that same pressure, and so carry that gene.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

Seneca of the Night wrote:

He knows that. He has read the document
Is this the section here:
ethnic origin – this usually refers to the ethnic group to which
someone belongs. An ethnic group will usually have a long, shared
history and its own cultural traditions which set it apart from other
groups. It may also have a shared language, literature, religion and
geographical origin, and may also be a minority or oppressed group.
Examples of ethnic groups include Sikhs, Jews, Romany Gypsies and
Irish Travellers (some of which have their own religions)
???
Yes
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

bobbity wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bobbity wrote:Why did sickle cell come into this?
Because the people who have it have tended to be black, so bimbo was trying to use it as justification for a scientific use of the concept of "race"
"Tended to be black" ? I never once referred to skin colour ,malted on YOU kept mentioning "white" people. But I didn't say "black people" at any time. Don't lie chuckles.

There's also a very clear genetic reason and people from certain heritages are more prone (by massive percentages) to inherite the trait and therefore the disease.

Ok, but it's based on a geographically tied selection pressure. I'm struggling with it as a proxy or tied to anything. There will be large groups who consider themselves ethnically distinct who are or have been subject to that same pressure, and so carry that gene.

It was a proxy for being able to claim whatever race we as individuals choose, profiling , support and testing for sickle cell isn't available (or needed obviously) for the whole UK population.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by ukjim »

Seneca of the Night wrote:
ukjim wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:So is racism now to be considered to be on a scale of seriouness depending on the group that are being "sinned" against?
context innit.

Being mzungu in east africa you experience loads of "racism" but as you are comparatively rich and powerful it's like water off a ducks back.
Are you mzungu?
yep but not in kenya these days.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

It really doesn't seem that odd to me to talk about "white people" and "black people" in a discussion about race
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by JM2K6 »

bimboman wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Calculus wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Isn't Africa the most genetically diverse continent?
Yes, but a lot of people like bimbo still think phenotyic difference correrates highly with genetic differences.

No I don't, and nothing I've said demonstrates such a belief. I tend to think of these disgraceful accusations of my thinking as deflection from the accusers beliefs and thoughts.

Lots of disgraceful people use a tactic like this as it covers their own behaviours and guilt.
Where did that come from? I was querying your question about "racially African".

I was replying to calculus, I sorry your quoted above the post I replied too.
Totally missed that Calculus referenced you by name, sorry!
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Chuckles1188 wrote:It really doesn't seem that odd to me to talk about "white people" and "black people" in a discussion about race

Clearly, while ,lecturing us all in the complexity of the issue and how wrong we are.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Conservative Eddie »

bimboman wrote:
Chuckles1188 wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Calculus wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:Isn't Africa the most genetically diverse continent?
Yes, but a lot of people like bimbo still think phenotyic difference correrates highly with genetic differences.

No I don't, and nothing I've said demonstrates such a belief. I tend to think of these disgraceful accusations of my thinking as deflection from the accusers beliefs and thoughts.

Lots of disgraceful people use a tactic like this as it covers their own behaviours and guilt.
So what was your Sickle Cell point about?

You know sickle cell only affects people from a particular heritage don't you ? That isn't racist , it's not like profiling at airport security, there's actually scientific and genetic reasons for some things.
The sickle cell allele displays its highest frequency in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula and Indian subcontinent, despite being regarded as an "African disease" or trait. I'm not sure there's anything particular about its distribution as populations move and intermingle - I wouldn't make hard and fast judgements about someone's likelihood of carrying the allele based on their physical appearance (phenotype).

Ireland has the highest (or one of the highest) frequency amongst its population for the cystic fibrosis (CFTR) gene. Yet, cystic fibrosis isn't an "Irish trait" that we use to distinguish the "Irish race" from everyone else. Picking traits in a fairly ad-hoc way to demarcate different groups of humans isn't helpful and ought not to be done by any serious researcher.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

The sickle cell allele displays its highest frequency in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula and Indian subcontinent, despite being regarded as an "African disease" or trait. I'm not sure there's anything particular about its distribution as populations move a
What's your source of that Frequency claim? What do you mean by frequency ? Link, because as a premise it appears completly untrue.

It's distribution is related to uccurance of malaria where the trait breed in over generations. Lack of maleria is one of the reasons it's occurance have lowered in Southern Europe.

Three-quarters of sickle-cell cases occur in Africa. A recent WHO report estimated that around 2% of newborns in Nigeria were affected by sickle cell anaemia, giving a total of 150,000 affected children born every year in Nigeria alone. The carrier frequency ranges between 10% and 40% across equatorial Africa
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Conservative Eddie »

bimboman wrote:
The sickle cell allele displays its highest frequency in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula and Indian subcontinent, despite being regarded as an "African disease" or trait. I'm not sure there's anything particular about its distribution as populations move a
What's your source of that Frequency claim? What do you mean by frequency ? Link, because as a premise it appears completly untrue.

It's distribution is related to uccurance of malaria where the trait breed in over generations. Lack of maleria is one of the reasons it's occurance have lowered in Southern Europe.

Three-quarters of sickle-cell cases occur in Africa. A recent WHO report estimated that around 2% of newborns in Nigeria were affected by sickle cell anaemia, giving a total of 150,000 affected children born every year in Nigeria alone. The carrier frequency ranges between 10% and 40% across equatorial Africa
My source? I can't remember; probably a couple of papers I read some months/years ago. I'll try to see what I can dig up, though I'm wondering whether there's any point.

What do I mean by frequency? I'm using the definition commonly used in the literature: relative allele frequency in a given population, normally expressed as a percentage.

Your second paragraph may appear plausible but it isn't necessarily true - the frequency of sickle cell alleles and penetrance, and the level of endemicity in a population don't always match up. Also, given that WHO quote you give, the variation and uncertainty in allele frequency is very high - data resolution is important here; from memory this has made comparing studies on this rather difficult.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

Conservative Eddie wrote:
bimboman wrote:
The sickle cell allele displays its highest frequency in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula and Indian subcontinent, despite being regarded as an "African disease" or trait. I'm not sure there's anything particular about its distribution as populations move a
What's your source of that Frequency claim? What do you mean by frequency ? Link, because as a premise it appears completly untrue.

It's distribution is related to uccurance of malaria where the trait breed in over generations. Lack of maleria is one of the reasons it's occurance have lowered in Southern Europe.

Three-quarters of sickle-cell cases occur in Africa. A recent WHO report estimated that around 2% of newborns in Nigeria were affected by sickle cell anaemia, giving a total of 150,000 affected children born every year in Nigeria alone. The carrier frequency ranges between 10% and 40% across equatorial Africa
My source? I can't remember; probably a couple of papers I read some months/years ago. I'll try to see what I can dig up, though I'm wondering whether there's any point.

What do I mean by frequency? I'm using the definition commonly used in the literature: relative allele frequency in a given population, normally expressed as a percentage.

Your second paragraph may appear plausible but it isn't necessarily true - the frequency of sickle cell alleles and penetrance, and the level of endemicity in a population don't always match up. Also, given that WHO quote you give, the variation and uncertainty in allele frequency is very high - data resolution is important here; from memory this has made comparing studies on this rather difficult.

It's all on studies attached to wiki on the illness, loads of stuff from the WHO, it appears Bharain and eastern Bangladesh have similar % of population born , but lower carrier numbers than much of Western Africa (up to 40% carrier rates ). It's thinner % both north end and south end of Africa due to less Maleria.

Of course there's far fewer Arabian peninsula migrants , but I'm sure European testing and advice etc is also concentrated on Bangladesh migrants as well as African and Caribean.

As for your last paragraph, I'm sure the studies which don't back your premise suffered from incorrect data , as is the PR way.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bobbity »

I'm struggling to understand why one particular gene (and its mutations) is a particularly useful thing in this conversation.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Turbogoat »

bobbity wrote:I'm struggling to understand why one particular gene (and its mutations) is a particularly useful thing in this conversation.
Because "Science!"
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

bobbity wrote:I'm struggling to understand why one particular gene (and its mutations) is a particularly useful thing in this conversation.

It isn't, it was an example of something else being discussed, on which I've been misquoted and had any motivation re written.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Conservative Eddie »

bimboman wrote:
Conservative Eddie wrote:
bimboman wrote:
The sickle cell allele displays its highest frequency in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula and Indian subcontinent, despite being regarded as an "African disease" or trait. I'm not sure there's anything particular about its distribution as populations move a
What's your source of that Frequency claim? What do you mean by frequency ? Link, because as a premise it appears completly untrue.

It's distribution is related to uccurance of malaria where the trait breed in over generations. Lack of maleria is one of the reasons it's occurance have lowered in Southern Europe.

Three-quarters of sickle-cell cases occur in Africa. A recent WHO report estimated that around 2% of newborns in Nigeria were affected by sickle cell anaemia, giving a total of 150,000 affected children born every year in Nigeria alone. The carrier frequency ranges between 10% and 40% across equatorial Africa
My source? I can't remember; probably a couple of papers I read some months/years ago. I'll try to see what I can dig up, though I'm wondering whether there's any point.

What do I mean by frequency? I'm using the definition commonly used in the literature: relative allele frequency in a given population, normally expressed as a percentage.

Your second paragraph may appear plausible but it isn't necessarily true - the frequency of sickle cell alleles and penetrance, and the level of endemicity in a population don't always match up. Also, given that WHO quote you give, the variation and uncertainty in allele frequency is very high - data resolution is important here; from memory this has made comparing studies on this rather difficult.

It's all on studies attached to wiki on the illness, loads of stuff from the WHO, it appears Bharain and eastern Bangladesh have similar % of population born , but lower carrier numbers than much of Western Africa (up to 40% carrier rates ). It's thinner % both north end and south end of Africa due to less Maleria.

Of course there's far fewer Arabian peninsula migrants , but I'm sure European testing and advice etc is also concentrated on Bangladesh migrants as well as African and Caribean.

As for your last paragraph, I'm sure the studies which don't back your premise suffered from incorrect data , as is the PR way.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say that I've read a considerably greater number of papers on this subject than you have - the fact that you needed to ask me what I meant by "frequency" tells me that this is all new to you. You brought up sickle cell anemia in a thread about race - the use of arbitrary traits, such as this disease, is commonly used by eejits who talk about a "Black race" or an "African race", so this approach isn't at all novel or clever. It's been done, over and over again, and has been comprehensively dismissed just as many times.

Most of the references on wikipedia to 'sickle cell anemia', relate to disease pathology and management and other aspects of clinical practice and are thus irrelevant to this discussion. Most studies (80-90%) conducted on this disease - not just those on wikipedia - either don't include data on allele frequency distributions or what data they do include is insufficient to calculate said distributions. I know this because I've read a meta-analysis on this very subject.

I have no idea where you're pulling that 40% measure from - I'd love to see the associated uncertainty - but it doesn't chime with what I've read. Western Africa displays huge variation in allele frequency, something like 9% in parts and up to 20% in one region of Angola.

Again, the whole point of this nonsense is that some people are rather fond of old race categories and have a tendency to slap traits onto this race and that race, in a pretty ad-hoc manner. Sometimes this is done out of sheer laziness and convenience on the part of researchers and clinicians, on other occasions it's done for more nefarious reasons, which alone, ought to make anyone more cautious when they think a particular trait or disease is specific to some "race".
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

You brought up sickle cell anemia in a thread about race - the use of arbitrary traits, such as this disease, is commonly used by eejits who talk about a "Black race" or an "African race", so this approach isn't at all novel or clever. It's been done, over and over again, and has been comprehensively dismissed just as many times.
Sorry, have you even looked at the context of me bringing it up and what I wrote ? Because if you've done that and still typed above you are simply stupid.

If your making the accusation of me being racist and haven't read the words and context of what I wrote then your even more stupid.

I wrote nothing of the sort about "black" or "african mentioning neither , so take your accusation and stuff it up your sickle cell report reading arse.

I'd also say frequency is absolute numbers as a measurement, in that case the highest frequency of cases is in Nigeria.

Yes the WHO are getting it wrong, I've already conceded that anything you remember from a few months ago supersedes everything.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Chuckles1188 »

bimboman wrote:I wrote nothing of the sort about "black" or "african mentioning neither , so take your accusation and stuff it up your sickle cell report reading arse.
:lol: :lol:
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by The Man Without Fear »

So anyway, back to the original topic, what a passel of plum.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

Chuckles1188 wrote:This whole argument is predicated on the idea that there is some kind of scientific means of deploying the concept of "race", but there isn't. We don't, outside of actual science, base ideas on science. The only scientific thing that unites people native to Africa is being native to Africa, but because we've decided that "Africa" is a meaningful idea in its own right we desperately try to find some kind of scientific concept which unites people from it.

One can be culturally African, but culture isn't derived from science
How does that work?
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Conservative Eddie »

Sorry, have you even looked at the context of me bringing it up and what I wrote ? Because if you've done that and still typed above you are simply stupid.

If your making the accusation of me being racist and haven't read the words and context of what I wrote then your even more stupid.
I think you've got projection down to an art-form at this stage. Yes, I read back through everything that you wrote. It's a complete mess of mis-understandings and non-sequiturs and strewn with insults towards another poster - poor Chuckles.

There's this:
Radial identity is a thing we humans and society refer to all the time, now I understand the reach of this can change due to social construct changes (CIA , see and all that multi gender bollocks), either we scrap the whole idea of race and racial identity (biology will have some work to do to find new words for stuff) or we accept that "race" cannot be a thing we can convert to.
Biology won't have any work to do on this one, by the way.

Followed by what I presume is the offending post:
Next time I turn up at the sickle cell society demanding to be tested I'll tell them I've chosen to be racially African that day and demand equality.

You stupid c unt.
I imagine there's plenty of people on here who can't make heads or tails of that. About the best I could I say is that there's some ambiguity there, so you're probably not a racist; just extremely abusive and not very well informed.
I wrote nothing of the sort about "black" or "african mentioning neither , so take your accusation and stuff it up your sickle cell report reading arse.
Charming!

If I'm accusing you of anything it's unbridled ignorance, not to mention arrogance. Dunning-Kruger strikes again!

I'd also say frequency is absolute numbers as a measurement, in that case the highest frequency of cases is in Nigeria.

Yes the WHO are getting it wrong, I've already conceded that anything you remember from a few months ago supersedes everything.
We're talking about allele frequency not disease penetrance. You might have your own definition of frequency but the scientific literature uses a different one. And I never said the WHO "are getting it wrong".
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by bimboman »

I imagine there's plenty of people on here who can't make heads or tails of that. About the best I could I say is that there's some ambiguity there, so you're probably not a racist; just extremely abusive and not very well informed.
Stick it up your pipe then. Redressing your accusation of racism is all you've done here, there's no ambiguity unless the reader is deliberately taking a position to defend an accusation they've been called on or they're in reality really f ucking stupid.

I think you've got projection down to an art-form at this stage. Yes, I read back through everything that you wrote. It's a complete mess of mis-understandings and non-sequiturs and strewn with insults towards another poster - poor Chuckles.
No no, everybody can see what your insinuation was, don't be so shy. You accused me of racism. As for the defence of "poor chuckles" :lol: , what a nonsense.

As for all the dunning Kruger stuff. :lol: , I love the arrogance you're expressing here, but your just a paper shop "confirmation bias" Sefton.

Oh and if you're agreeing with chuckles that race doesn't exist your accusations of racism are even more odd. Or one would think just nasty and deliberate.

F ucking c unt.
Last edited by bimboman on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by guy smiley »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Conservative Eddie »

bimboman wrote:
I imagine there's plenty of people on here who can't make heads or tails of that. About the best I could I say is that there's some ambiguity there, so you're probably not a racist; just extremely abusive and not very well informed.
Stick it up your pipe then. Redressing your accusation of racism is all you've done here, there's no ambiguity unless the reader is deliberately taking a position to defend an accusation they've been called on or they're in reality really f ucking stupid.

As for all the dunning Kruger stuff. :lol: , I love the arrogance you're expressing here, but your just a paper shop "confirmation bias" Sefton.

Og and if you're agreeing with chuckles that race doesn't exist your accusations of racism are even more odd. Or one would think just nasty and deliberate.

F ucking c unt.
I didn't actually accuse you of racism, but you are, whether you like it or not, repeating what has become something of a racist trope. You're doing that inadvertently and in a completely cack-handed manner, which is why I wrote the following in a previous post:
Again, the whole point of this nonsense is that some people are rather fond of old race categories and have a tendency to slap traits onto this race and that race, in a pretty ad-hoc manner. Sometimes this is done out of sheer laziness and convenience on the part of researchers and clinicians, on other occasions it's done for more nefarious reasons, which alone, ought to make anyone more cautious when they think a particular trait or disease is specific to some "race".
What is a "paper shop "confirmation bias" Sefton"?

Sounds scary.

And of course "race" exists. It's just not biologically meaningful.
Mick Mannock
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by Mick Mannock »

Conservative Eddie is probably not a racist either. There are probably quite a few of us on here who are probably not racist.
C69
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Re: "What race is d**khead?"

Post by C69 »

:lol:
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